Dec. 3, 2025

The Origin of Weird: The Anti Pope Schism

The Origin of Weird: The Anti Pope Schism
RSS Feed podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player icon

Power doesn’t just shape history—it picks the chair. We dive into the Western Schism, when Europe faced not one but multiple popes, and legitimacy became a battlefield of theology, politics, and personality. From Rome to Avignon to a seaside fortress in Spain, this is the story of how faith and ambition tangled for decades, and how a divided church fought its way back to one voice.

We start with why rival popes appeared at all: the papacy sitting atop medieval geopolitics, the Avignon move that made French influence unavoidable, and the chaotic return to Rome that led to Urban VI and a swift backlash. When cardinals fled and elected Clement VII in Avignon, kings chose sides. England backed Rome, France rallied Avignon, and ordinary believers were left to wonder whose seal carried the weight of heaven.

At the heart of it all stands Pedro de Luna, Benedict XIII: brilliant canon lawyer, austere reformer, and a man whose conviction hardened into immovable certainty. Besieged in Avignon, he slipped through a secret passage and reemerged defiant. Reformers tried to fix the split at Pisa and only made it worse, creating a third papal line. The Council of Constance finally threaded the needle—deposing one claimant, accepting another’s resignation, and electing Martin V to reunite Christendom—while Benedict held fast in Peñíscola, issuing bulls to a shrinking court and believing to the end that he alone kept the lawful line.

What emerges is a vivid portrait of legitimacy: how it is claimed, tested, and rebuilt. We unpack the Avignon Papacy, Urban VI’s missteps, European alliances, Pisa’s miscalculation, and Constance’s careful choreography. Along the way, we explore how law, conscience, and raw power jostled for the soul of the church—and why unity returned only when authority aligned with process and consent. If you enjoy history that reads like a political thriller—sieges, escapes, rival courts—this one delivers.

Enjoyed the deep dive? Follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more curious minds find us.


Benedict (XIII) – Antipope, Avignon Papacy, Papal Schism

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Benedict-XIII-antipope

Western Schism

https://www.britannica.com/event/Western-Schism

Pedro de Luna – Catholic Encyclopedia

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09431c.htm

Avignon and the Papacy: From Papal Palace to Papal Crisis by Yves Renouard

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40482060

Antipope Benedict XIII, A Stubborn Old Man

https://www.catholic365.com/article/35024/antipope-benedict-xiii-a-stubborn-old-man.html



Send us a text

Support the show













This website contains affiliate links. This means that if you click on a link and purchase a product, I may receive a small commission at no extra cost to you. This helps support the running of this website and allows me to continue providing valuable content. Please note that I only recommend products and services that I believe in and have personally used or researched.

00:00 - Cold Open And Banter

00:51 - Setting The Stage: Popes And Power

02:02 - Antipopes And Medieval Politics

03:57 - Investiture Battles And Authority

06:39 - Avignon Papacy Explained

09:04 - Return To Rome And Urban VI

11:37 - Two Popes: Urban VI Vs Clement VII

14:25 - Enter Pedro De Luna

16:40 - Benedict XIII’s Rise And Resolve

19:14 - Siege Of Avignon And Daring Escape

22:00 - The Pisa Gambit And Three Popes

24:38 - Constance Moves To End The Schism

27:18 - Deposition, Resignation, And Martin V

29:20 - Benedict XIII In Exile At Peñíscola

31:27 - The Last Flickers Of The Avignon Line

33:12 - Wrap-Up, Corrections, And Sign-Off

WEBVTT

00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:17.120
It's it's okay then.

00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:19.679
Why have you been so quiet lately when you say that?

00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:20.640
Oh hey there.

00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:21.600
There it is.

00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:22.800
Oh hey there.

00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:24.079
All right.

00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.480
Nathan's sleeping in the other room.

00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:32.799
I know he's taking a nap because he just went out hunting this morning and got two deer for hunting season.

00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:33.520
That was his goal.

00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.799
So huzzah.

00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:35.600
One done.

00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:36.320
One and done.

00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:40.640
More venison for you guys to add to your plethora of venison that you have.

00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:41.280
Yeah.

00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:43.119
So that's why I was quiet.

00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:44.000
Oh, I get it.

00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:47.200
But I also feel like not my fault.

00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:48.799
Just kidding.

00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:50.719
Uh oh, hey there.

00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:51.439
How are you?

00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:52.079
I am well.

00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.079
This is the History Buffoons.

00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:54.479
How are you?

00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:55.200
I'm good.

00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:55.840
I am Kate.

00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:56.880
And I am Bradley.

00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:57.200
Yeah.

00:00:57.359 --> 00:00:59.600
It's felt like we took a long time to get to History Buffons.

00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.399
We really did.

00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:01.359
But here we are.

00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:02.799
This is the origin of Weird.

00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:03.359
Yes.

00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:11.280
And um I am kind of trailing off of a previous episode that we did.

00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:17.760
Uh Origin or Um, no, I think it was um was it Origin?

00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:18.719
I don't remember.

00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:20.239
If you tell me, I could probably tell you.

00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:22.159
It was about anti-popes.

00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:24.560
And the Western Shism.

00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:25.439
Schism?

00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:26.159
Schism.

00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:26.959
Schism.

00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:28.400
Shazam.

00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:31.280
Shazam, you got schism.

00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:33.200
Was that John of Neppamuk?

00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.560
When we briefly talked about antipopes.

00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.319
I don't know, I don't remember.

00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:38.799
Yeah.

00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:39.840
Is it?

00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:43.760
I know we talked about like the West Western Schism.

00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:44.640
Schism.

00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:46.159
Do you want to know something?

00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:46.560
What?

00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.120
That is a fantastic tool song.

00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:49.840
Schism.

00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:50.640
Schism.

00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:51.760
Oh, it's so good.

00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:53.760
They're so fucking amazing.

00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:56.959
Okay, so we're gonna talk about one in particular.

00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:59.120
Um, anti anti po anti poop.

00:01:59.359 --> 00:01:59.519
Okay.

00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.400
Anti poop.

00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:03.120
There's a Primus album called Antipop.

00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.000
You were weird.

00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:07.920
Thank you.

00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:20.879
So for most of the Middle Ages, yeah, people like to believe that Christendom, um, their stability flowed downwards from a single source, and that was Saint Peter.

00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:21.360
Right.

00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:22.719
And his successor.

00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:23.120
Yeah.

00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:28.319
Um, he was also called the Bishop of Rome, um, or of course, the Pope.

00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:28.639
Right.

00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:28.960
Okay.

00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.240
Did you know Saint Peter was crucified upside down?

00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:34.240
I think I did hear that, yeah.

00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:34.960
Yeah.

00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:44.000
So in theory, one man would carry the spiritual authority to guide kings, crown emperors, and settle disputes that were far beyond Vatican walls.

00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:46.960
And you know, Vatican is like the smallest country.

00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:47.520
Yeah.

00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:50.400
In practice, things were a lot messier.

00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.479
Of course, because people.

00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:53.120
Yes.

00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:59.520
So the papacy sat on top of a ton of politics and rivalries and ambitions.

00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:05.199
And every so often the church would come up with a few extra popes.

00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:07.599
Got a plethora of popes.

00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.400
Yeah, they're like rival popes or like backup popes.

00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:11.280
Backup popes.

00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:13.199
Like backup dancers, but popes.

00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.159
It's like Pope John the First, get in there.

00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:16.719
Yeah.

00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:18.319
This guy's arm is weak.

00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.120
It's like fucking baseball, and they're replacing the Pope.

00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:27.840
And it's but of course, the Pope who there are popes who also refuse the acknowledgement of other popes.

00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.800
Of course, because I'm the I'm the true successor.

00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:32.080
The one true Pope.

00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:32.479
Yeah.

00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:35.039
And because they wanted the power.

00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:36.479
I mean, especially back then.

00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:38.800
It's all about God and church and stuff.

00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.719
But again, I am not religious, so this is my viewpoint on it.

00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.159
They wanted that power.

00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:44.639
Yeah.

00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:46.879
Because there were some pretty shady fucking popes.

00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:47.599
There were.

00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:54.400
So, I mean, all in the name of God, but so as I said before, we call these extra popes antipopes.

00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:54.879
Yes.

00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:01.520
Um, but in their own day, each one swore, scouts, honor, and all, that he was the true heir to Saint Peter's throne.

00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:02.159
Sure.

00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:12.479
So behind each pope antipope was a network of kings and noble houses who c saw clear advantages in supporting a certain pope.

00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:16.720
It's funny, every time you say Saint Peter, I just think upon this rock I will build my church.

00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.199
And I'm just picturing Ultron saying it.

00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:20.800
From the Avengers.

00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:21.279
Oh.

00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:24.160
Sorry.

00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:32.319
So antipopes tended to appear whenever whenever the papacy got tangled up with secular power, which was fairly often.

00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:32.800
Sure.

00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:38.959
To medieval rulers, a pope wasn't just a spiritual leader, he was also like a geopolitical jackpot.

00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:41.040
Geopolitical jackpot.

00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:51.120
A pope in your corner could strengthen a dynasty, undermine an enemy, sanction a war, oh yeah, or decide whether a marriage stood or collapsed.

00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:51.759
Weird.

00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:52.639
We've talked about that.

00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:01.519
So when a king or emperor found the current pope uncooperative, it was tempting to promote a rival pontiff and call him the real deal.

00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:02.319
Yep.

00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:07.759
So the 11th and 12th centuries were especially crowded with these disputes.

00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:08.319
Okay.

00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:19.920
Popes and emperors clashed clashed over who got to appoint bishops, who had the power to crown whom, and whether the Holy Roman Emperor um outranked the Pope or vice versa.

00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:20.720
Right.

00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.360
So there was such a thing called the investiture controversy.

00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:26.480
Never heard of that, okay?

00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:34.959
It produced a standoff that emperors created their own popes, and popes encouraged uprisings against emperors.

00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:35.439
Wow.

00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:43.519
So it was kind of a like a medieval showdown between popes and the Holy Roman Empire over who gets to appoint bishops.

00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:44.079
Okay.

00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:44.639
Okay.

00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.480
Bishops held land and power, so the emperors wanted control.

00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:51.839
Popes argued only the church could choose its own leaders.

00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:52.240
Right.

00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:58.160
Um, so this kind of spiraled into excommunications and political chaos and more anti-popes.

00:05:58.399 --> 00:05:59.120
Quite the schism.

00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:00.000
Schism.

00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:06.000
So Europe ended with not just a pair, but a parade of competing pontiffs.

00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:06.160
Okay.

00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:13.040
Each one with his own court, his own followers, and his own papal seals, insisting he was absolutely legitimate.

00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.360
So, I mean, if you where do these people sit?

00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.000
Because only one can occupy the Vatican.

00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:20.720
Right, yeah.

00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.680
So I feel like the one that's there should be the full community.

00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:25.040
I mean, right?

00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:25.519
Yes.

00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:30.319
So I actually do um have some places where they have gone to.

00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:32.399
So do they have like Vatican II?

00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:34.160
That'd be funny.

00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:35.199
That would be kind of funny.

00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:35.680
But no.

00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.480
I know, but it just would be funny.

00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:46.240
So earlier battles looked fairly tidy compared to what was happening in the 14th century.

00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:52.399
This was when the papacy papacy had banned in Rome for Avignon.

00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.000
Avignon in France.

00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.439
For nearly 70 years, the Pope lived not in the ancient seat of St.

00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:06.800
Peter, but in a grand palace closer to French influence rather than Roman influence.

00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.079
Was this Pope that lived there French?

00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:13.920
Um, I don't yes.

00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.839
I don't, yes.

00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:16.480
I think so.

00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:16.879
Okay.

00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:17.519
I think so.

00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:23.759
I mean, it would make sense why he would be in France if he's French and he's like, I'm gonna get more support over here.

00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.319
Yeah, I I don't remember if I wrote that down or not.

00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:26.959
That's okay.

00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:40.720
So the papacy left Rome for Avignon because Rome had become like practically ungovernable and dangerous, while France offered more stability, protection, and political pressure that popes could hardly refuse.

00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:41.759
So for sure.

00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:43.839
A few factors drove the move.

00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:53.199
Rome was in political meltdown, rival noble families fought in the streets, the city was violent, unstable, and the pope's safety was never guaranteed.

00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.319
Yeah, they didn't have the Pope Mobile back then with the doll.

00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.759
Uh the French crown held enormous influence.

00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:02.319
Yep.

00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:09.360
Um, Pope Clement V, which who was elected in 1305, was heavily pressured by King Philip IV of France.

00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:10.959
I've heard of Pope Clement, yeah.

00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:13.439
And he wanted a compliant papacy.

00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:13.839
Sure.

00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:17.199
So standing close to the French court made that easier.

00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:22.639
And then Avignon was safer, wealthier, and had better administration.

00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:23.120
Sure.

00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:29.920
Um, it was part of the papal territories, well fortified and far more comfortable than what Rome was experiencing.

00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:30.879
Gotcha.

00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.799
So there was Gregory the 11th.

00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:35.360
Okay.

00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.840
He was the last of the Avignon popes, and he actually brought the paper.

00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:42.159
So they were out there for what I say.

00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:44.639
A few years, yeah.

00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.480
Yeah, it was a few years.

00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:48.879
I guess I don't remember the years.

00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:51.440
Yeah, I think I wrote it down somewhere.

00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:51.919
Okay.

00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:52.559
I'm sorry.

00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:53.440
I don't I don't remember.

00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:54.559
Well, has become a Christian.

00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:56.799
It was less than a hundred years.

00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:57.360
I know that.

00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:58.799
So quite a long time though.

00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:00.799
Yeah, I think it was a couple decades.

00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:01.440
Wow.

00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:02.000
I think.

00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:04.480
Still surprised it was that long.

00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:11.360
Um, so Gregory the 11th um brought the papacy back to Rome in 1377.

00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:12.320
Gotcha.

00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:14.720
So um what did I say?

00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.080
Clement Pope Clement V, he was elected in 1305.

00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:18.639
Okay.

00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.440
Um Avignon.

00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:23.360
So 72 years, roughly.

00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:23.840
Okay.

00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:25.039
Okay.

00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:27.360
My computer's acting funny.

00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:27.840
Okay.

00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:34.879
So, like I said, uh Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome in 1377.

00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:35.120
Okay.

00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.360
Avignon had become a political trap, and the church's credibility was suffering.

00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:45.519
So he knew that as long as papacy stayed in France, people would see him as a French puppet.

00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:46.240
Right.

00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:59.039
Um, on top of that, Italy was falling into chaos, and without papal leadership, rival factions were tearing cities apart, and Rome itself was begging for the Pope's return to restore order and prestige.

00:09:59.200 --> 00:09:59.600
Right.

00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:05.679
So everyone agreed the papacy needed to be restored, but no one agreed on what that restoration would look like.

00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.120
I find it funny every time you say papacy, you say papist fee.

00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:10.960
Papacy?

00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:12.720
No, you say papist fee.

00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:18.480
But I know it's papacy.

00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.480
I know, but you're saying it funny.

00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:21.360
Sorry.

00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.960
Just would like to point that out.

00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.639
All right, so it's back in Rome.

00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:32.240
Yes, so Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome and then he died.

00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.360
Oh, like he walked into Rome, we're back.

00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:36.879
It was close.

00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:38.639
Yeah, it was fairly close.

00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:40.080
Um, he died of natural causes.

00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:40.559
Sure.

00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:42.159
He was, I mean, probably pretty old.

00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:42.960
Yeah, exactly.

00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:44.399
So especially for that time.

00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:44.799
Yeah.

00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:46.399
45, I mean.

00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:54.799
So the moment conclave opened in Rome, the whole city felt like it was about to explode.

00:10:54.960 --> 00:11:04.080
Romans were terrified, the cardinals, many of them French, would choose yet another French pope and haul the papacy back to Avignon.

00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:05.679
I love that.

00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:06.240
Thank you.

00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:12.559
So crowds gathered outside the building shouting for an Italian and making it very clear what outcome they expected.

00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.039
So the pressure for the cardinals was really overwhelming.

00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:26.000
So with shouts echoing outside and fists pounding on doors, literally, the anxious cardinals completely aware of what was happening around them.

00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:26.960
For sure, yeah, yeah.

00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.639
Chose, excuse me, Bartolomeo.

00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:32.320
Bartolomeo.

00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:33.519
Bartolomeo?

00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:34.320
Pregnan.

00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:36.559
Wow.

00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:38.480
This is Italian looking as they.

00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:39.759
He likes pasta.

00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.480
Um, he became Urban the Sixth.

00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:43.360
Urban?

00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:44.320
Yes.

00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:45.600
There were six Urbans.

00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.840
I've never heard of Pope Urban before.

00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:48.240
Yeah.

00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:49.200
That's wild.

00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:49.679
Okay.

00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.080
So the crowd loved it.

00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.519
For a brief moment, Rome felt restored.

00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:56.159
Sure.

00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:57.360
But that didn't last long.

00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:58.879
Say what happened after that.

00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:04.480
Urban the Sixth quickly managed to alienate many of the very men who had elevated him.

00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.799
He was naturally stern and never shy about his opinions.

00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:16.559
He called out the Cardinals for their spending, their behavior, and the comfortable lifestyle that they were getting used to.

00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:17.360
Sure.

00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:21.919
So his reforms might have had merit, but he delivered them poorly.

00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:22.480
Yeah.

00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:23.120
Yeah.

00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.840
Um, so the cardinals took offense of that.

00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.080
Well, yeah, because they were enjoying their lifestyle and being like, this is comfy, man.

00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:30.799
Comfy living.

00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:31.759
We don't gotta do much.

00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:39.120
We gotta say, bless you, be with God, and then we get a bunch of money and live in these lavish fucking estates and shit.

00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:40.960
So they didn't want to fucking lose that.

00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.440
Yeah.

00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:52.320
So feeling insulted and cornered, they slipped out of Rome and insisted the election had been invalid, forced by the mob's intimidation rather than their own free will.

00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:53.120
Oh boy.

00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.559
As in they were coerced.

00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:55.279
Yeah.

00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.960
So what did they do?

00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.039
They elected another pope.

00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:00.240
Anti-pope.

00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:04.159
Robert of Geneva, who took the name Clement the Seventh.

00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:04.720
Okay.

00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:05.279
Okay.

00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:12.159
He established Clement the Fifth is the one that was in 1305.

00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:14.320
So there was a six in there somewhere.

00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:14.960
Gotcha.

00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:15.440
Yeah.

00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.720
For some reason, because Gregory the whatever brought it back.

00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:19.840
11th, yeah.

00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:20.320
Okay.

00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.480
I for some reason my mind went to Clement V brought it back, and I'm like, no, that's not right.

00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:25.919
Because I'm like, where did six go?

00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.600
But okay, my bad.

00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:35.200
So they elect Robert of Geneva, Clement the Seventh, and he established his court back in Avignon.

00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.120
And just like that, Europe had two popes, one in Rome and one in France.

00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.039
And of course, they both said that they were the rightful heir to St.

00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.000
Peter's throne.

00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.840
I feel like the one in Avignon is not because he's not on St.

00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:48.639
Peter's throne.

00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:49.679
Just saying.

00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:55.360
Of course, nations laid um lined up behind their preferred pontiff.

00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.879
Well, yeah, which hey, uh I'm sorry, Urban, right?

00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.080
Urban the Sixth.

00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:02.399
Urban the Sixth will let me do this.

00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:04.240
We're backing him and then Pope.

00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:05.679
I'm sorry, what was the other guy's name?

00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:06.720
Clement the Seventh.

00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:07.200
Seventh.

00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:08.159
Seventh, yeah.

00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:14.159
So um Yeah, I can see how they would be like, which one's gonna benefit me better?

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:14.480
Yeah.

00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:16.080
I'm gonna back that one.

00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:22.480
And obviously I'm sure France backed the the one in France better because he's fucking there, kind of thing.

00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:23.919
But that's wild.

00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:29.200
So England was hostile to France, so they supported Urban in Rome.

00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.759
Yeah.

00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.120
France threw their weight behind Clement and Avignon.

00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.919
Scotland Clement's in in Rome, Urban's in Avignon.

00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:39.200
Vice versa.

00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.360
I could have sworn you just said it the other way.

00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.039
No, Clem uh Clement the Seventh went to Avignon.

00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:46.639
Okay.

00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:49.440
I got confused.

00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:51.600
Clement the Seventh went to Avignon.

00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:52.159
Gotcha.

00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:58.559
So Scotland, Castile, Aragon, which is in Spain, um, and others followed Avignon.

00:14:58.799 --> 00:14:59.840
That's where Catherine's from.

00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:05.519
The Holy Roman Empire um and many Italian states sided with Rome.

00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:06.080
Okay.

00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.879
So the Western Schism.

00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:10.159
Schism.

00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:11.919
Schism.

00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:12.799
You had it right.

00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.080
And then you butchered it.

00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.200
Wow.

00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:27.679
So among those who supported Clement the Seventh was a gifted, intense, and deeply principled canon lawyer named Pedro de Luna.

00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:28.240
Okay.

00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.000
He was born around 1328.

00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:38.879
Um, and he came from an old noble family um during the Crown of Aragon.

00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:39.919
Okay.

00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.240
That's all I think of when I say that.

00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:42.960
I know every time.

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:49.360
That's why like Catherine of Aragon is like either from Lord of the Rings or a big spider.

00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:50.080
Yeah.

00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:57.519
So um he his family was marked by the crescent moon on their coat of arms, hence his last name, De Luna.

00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:58.240
Oh, sure.

00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:04.159
So he studied at the University of Montpelier, where he became a highly respected teacher of canon law.

00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.360
He was known for his discipline and personal austerity.

00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.000
Pedro was admired for his unwavering um commitment to principle.

00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:12.559
Okay.

00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:21.759
When Gregory the Eleventh made him cardinal in 1375, one of the final opponent um appointments before the papacy's return to Rome.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:23.120
And Gregory died.

00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.480
Pedro quickly became an influential figure.

00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:34.799
So in Avignon, he emerged as one of the court's most loyal defenders and one of Clement the Seventh's most capable diplomats.

00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:35.440
Gotcha.

00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:36.000
Okay.

00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.120
Clement the Seventh died in 1394.

00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:41.600
Okay.

00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:47.279
And the Avignon cardinals gathered once again to select a successor.

00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.799
And they were worn down by this schism.

00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:52.960
Did I say that right?

00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:53.360
Yes.

00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:54.240
Good job.

00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:54.799
Me.

00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.480
They were embarrassed by the div division of it, and they wanted to restore unity.

00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:08.799
So they agreed that whoever they chose had to be committed to healing the rift, even if that meant resigning for the greater good.

00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:09.279
Right.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.720
So they wanted steadiness and unquestionable integrity.

00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:20.160
So they chose Pedro de Luna, who became Benedict the Thirteenth.

00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:20.799
Okay.

00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:24.480
Yes, 13th.

00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.319
Roman numerals, am I right?

00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:27.119
Yep.

00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.359
Got him on my arm.

00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:34.960
So for a more moment, it genuinely looked like the Avignon Cardinals had chosen well.

00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:42.240
Benedict the Thirteenth had a reputation for integrity, sharp intellect, and unwavering commitment to what he believed was right.

00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:50.079
So, but that same unshakable conviction became the heart of his coming disaster.

00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:57.680
Once he became Pope, he simply could not imagine any path to healing the schism that required him to step aside.

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.519
So he got that power and he's like, fuck this, I'm not giving it up.

00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.480
In his mind, a true pope didn't resign.

00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:06.480
But you're not a true pope.

00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:07.759
But he didn't think that.

00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.119
No, he thought he was the true pope and the other guy was the imposter.

00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.400
So at first his position was strong.

00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:19.680
France, Scotland, Castile, Aragon, Sicily all recognized him.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.000
But as the years passed, patients started wearing thin.

00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:25.839
Kings grew frustrated.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:35.359
Theologians worried about um spiritual fallout, and Europe um groaned under dispute that no one could justify anymore.

00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:35.759
Okay.

00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:43.119
So French universities spoke openly about the harm the schism was doing and arguing that divided leadership endangered the entire church.

00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:43.920
Sure.

00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:45.039
Duh.

00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:50.960
I mean, you can't have a uh unity with such a fucking clusterfuck going on.

00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:51.519
Seriously.

00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.119
So yeah, it's gonna damage it.

00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.920
And people are gonna be like, well, they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:56.640
Why am I falling?

00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:57.359
Right.

00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.519
So diplomats pleaded with Benedict to consider resign resignation for the sake of unity.

00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:14.720
Um, but in 1398, France withdrew obedience altogether, and that blow um, excuse me, and the blow that followed was even worse.

00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.119
His own cardinals started walking away.

00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:18.000
Oh boy.

00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:27.200
So, or under orders from the French crown, troops surrounded the papal palace in Avignon, essentially placing Benedict under guard.

00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:36.799
One by one, cardinals who had stood behind him once before had slipped out, distancing themselves for what they saw was kind of like a hopeless cause.

00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.279
Yep.

00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.680
Out of 23, only five remained.

00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:40.640
Oh, Jesus.

00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.079
The rest joined the call for him to resign for the good of the church.

00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:44.799
Right.

00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:51.759
So, but anyone who thought this pressure would make Benedict the Thirteenth full didn't understand Pedro de Luna.

00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.680
He's like, fuck your couch.

00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.039
I am Pope.

00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:05.839
Through years of siege, uh, years in which his influence shrank, his isolation deepened, and his dignity was constantly tested, he refused to budge.

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.279
He believed completely and without hesitation that he alone upheld God's lawful order.

00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.240
Oh good lord.

00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.079
So yielding to political force was in his eyes inconceivable.

00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:18.000
Inconceivable.

00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:19.839
I don't think you're using that word right.

00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.240
You don't think so?

00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:24.000
It's from a movie.

00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.160
Oh, is that the follow-up?

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:26.960
Yes.

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:28.400
Princess Bride?

00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:28.799
Yes.

00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:29.279
Cool.

00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:30.559
I've only seen it once.

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:31.359
Really?

00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:31.839
Yeah.

00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.880
Maybe twice.

00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.160
I guess I know what movie we're gonna watch soon.

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.920
So by 1403, the blockade outside the palace had weakened.

00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:40.319
Yeah.

00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:42.640
The French political situation shifted.

00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:50.160
Some local commanders became less vigilant, and the siege simply wasn't uh maintained with the same intensity it once had.

00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.279
Now they're like, eh.

00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:53.119
I'm getting tired.

00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.200
I'll throw a grape at you and walk away.

00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:55.839
Yeah.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:03.440
So sensing the change he had been waiting for, Benedict the Thirteenth quietly coordinated his remaining like five allies.

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.359
That's not a lot of allies.

00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:24.640
One night taking advantage of the lax guard and under the cover of darkness, he slipped out through a concealed passage, and um with the help of his loyal followers, he escaped Avignon entirely and made his way to territories more sympathetic to him.

00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.160
Oh, like where?

00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.240
So this is when I think he went to um Spain.

00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:31.359
Oh, okay.

00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.480
So he wasted no time reasserting control.

00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:42.319
Supporters had grown uneasy or ambivalent, suddenly saw him as a man who couldn't be intimidated into resignation.

00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:49.119
Um he re-entered Avignon not as a captive but as a defiant pontiff reclaiming his position.

00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:50.319
So he tried to come back.

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:50.720
Right.

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:56.799
And it transformed him into a symbol to his followers, a pope wronged, but unbroken.

00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:57.680
Oh, good lord.

00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:02.319
To his critics, living proof that no amount of pressure could pry him out of the office.

00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:11.279
He his escape didn't resolve the schism, but it solidified his identity in the eyes of Europe for better or for worse.

00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:17.039
Meanwhile, Europe tried to fix the mess on their own.

00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:18.079
Urban.

00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:24.400
So in 1409, bishops and theologians gather gathered at Pisa.

00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.599
Pisa, yeah.

00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:27.200
Right.

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.359
Um, they had a bold plan depose both remaining reigning popes.

00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:41.039
We have Gregory the 12th in Rome, and now we've got Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon.

00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.160
I thought he was Clement.

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.920
Gregory the Sixth.

00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:44.799
Yes.

00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.480
He was the last Avignon Pope, and he returned to the papacy to Rome.

00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.119
Correct.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:49.680
Okay.

00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:55.680
And then we have right after him was Urban the Sixth of the Roman line.

00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.720
Correct.

00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:04.400
And he during this time is when there's a revolt and it breaks.

00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:04.960
Correct.

00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:08.400
So then we have the Avignon line, which is Clement the Seventh.

00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.319
And then he's the antipope.

00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.400
And then he dies, and then Benedict.

00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.000
Yes, he dies.

00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.000
And now again in the Avignon line, we've got Benedict the Thirteenth.

00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:18.480
Yep.

00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.359
De Luna.

00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:20.079
Mm-hmm.

00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.960
And then we still have the Roman line.

00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:23.680
Correct.

00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:28.799
So the Roman line was um Urban the Sixth.

00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:30.079
Yep, the first one.

00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:32.960
Then we have Boniface the Ninth.

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:39.440
So Urban died, Urban VI died, Boniface the Ninth, and then we had Innocent the Seventh.

00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:40.960
Was he innocent though?

00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.599
And then we had Gregory the Seventh.

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.839
Sorry, Gregory the Twelfth.

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.759
And that's the one we're at now.

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.400
Yes, that's where we're at now.

00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.640
I need a fucking charter or something.

00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:53.839
Jesus Christ.

00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:54.319
Okay.

00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.599
So because I guess we were talking about De Luna this whole time, and I didn't know any of those died.

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:00.079
Yeah.

00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:06.240
So that's that wasn't yeah, that wasn't even part of like the research, but yes, a couple popes died and more were re-elected.

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:07.680
That obviously makes sense.

00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.359
I was just super confused because again, I also didn't know the time frames.

00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.200
I know it's really difficult to follow.

00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:14.799
So much so many popes.

00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.359
We'll try to I'll try to put together like a Yeah, like a list or something.

00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:19.680
Whatever.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:20.480
Yeah, something like that.

00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.200
Pie chart.

00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.000
Yeah, whatever.

00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:23.119
3D graph.

00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:23.680
Yeah.

00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:25.200
So yeah, that was confusing.

00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:25.599
Okay.

00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.480
Thank you for clearing that up.

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.759
Yeah, you're welcome.

00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:28.400
All right.

00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:34.400
So Gregory the So we've got Gregory the Twelfth in Rome.

00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:35.599
That's right.

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.799
We have Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon.

00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.039
Now in Aragon.

00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:42.960
Or wait, that's where he went, right?

00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.799
No, I think he's still in Avignon.

00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:46.400
But he's escaped.

00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:47.599
Yeah, he escaped.

00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.720
So yeah, he must be back in Aragon.

00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.039
Because he was going to Spanish.

00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:53.839
Yeah.

00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:58.559
So I can't believe you didn't even comment on how I said Spanish.

00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:05.440
So in 1409, bishops and theologians gathered at Pisa to dispose both the remaining popes.

00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.240
Yeah, Benedict the Thirteenth?

00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.799
Yes, and in Avignon or yeah.

00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:12.000
Gregory the 12th.

00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:13.119
Yes, and he's in Rome.

00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:13.680
Okay.

00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:18.640
And they elect a new one to unify a Christendom.

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.240
But now there's three.

00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:21.839
How is that going to unify them?

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.039
Exactly.

00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.920
So just to give a quick overview.

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.759
A quick overview.

00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.279
What's a queak overview?

00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:34.880
A quick overview of what uh what deposing needs.

00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:35.680
Oh dear.

00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:36.559
I broke him.

00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.480
Oh my god, a queak.

00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.559
I like queak overviews.

00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:44.799
Sorry.

00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:46.640
That was just really funny to me.

00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:47.599
And I don't know why.

00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.640
All right, continue.

00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:55.200
So I I'm gonna give a brief overview of what deposing a post is.

00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:58.640
Deposing a post.

00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:01.839
Words are tough, am I right?

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.119
I think I need a beer.

00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:04.160
Oh, I do.

00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:11.039
Okay, so deposition involves a formal statement explaining why he is no longer recognized.

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:11.599
Correct.

00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.000
A withdrawal of obedience from kings, cardinals, and clergy.

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.839
Okay, and another man elected in its place.

00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.920
So sorry, what was the one they elected the third pope now?

00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.160
His name is Alexander the Fifth.

00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:27.680
Alexander the Fifth.

00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.799
That's a strong name.

00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:32.079
Now they have a three pope problem.

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.799
Do you know what I think they should have done?

00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.000
Built a ring, gladiator style, whatever.

00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:39.279
Hash it out.

00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:40.400
Pope it up.

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:41.119
Yep.

00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:42.720
Pope up the jam.

00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:43.119
Wait.

00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.319
So Gregory the 12th refused to step down.

00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:47.200
Of course he did.

00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:47.839
Why would he step?

00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.160
He's like, no, dude, I'm the fucking Pope.

00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:51.119
I'm in Rome.

00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:52.480
So what the fuck?

00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.960
And then Benedict the Thirteenth insisted as well.

00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:55.759
He was still Pope.

00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.039
No, because he was a dick.

00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:03.119
It wouldn't give up power, even though they elected him, saying, hey man, you might have to resign at some point to unify our our Christendom.

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.680
But you know, he's like, no, I don't.

00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:06.480
I'm good.

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.359
So now we've got Gregory XII of the Roman line.

00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:09.519
Yeah.

00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.160
We have Benedict the Thirteenth of the Avignon line.

00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:15.839
And we have Alexander the Fifth of the Pisian line.

00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:17.119
Pisan line.

00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.640
Pisa, right?

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.079
Meaning Tower of Pisa.

00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:21.119
Tower of Pisa.

00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:21.680
Pisa.

00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:22.559
Pisa line.

00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:23.359
Pisa in line.

00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:24.720
I like the Pisian line.

00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:30.400
So Alexander V reigned for only 10 months and then died of natural causes.

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.240
They need to elect younger popes.

00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:36.400
And then he was succeeded by John the 23rd.

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.680
Now there was 23 Johns by that time.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.640
Only John 23 happened twice.

00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:47.119
We actually had one in the late 50s, early 60s.

00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:54.480
But because the old John the 23rd isn't considered an antipope.

00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.599
Wait, he's not considered so they could do it again?

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:00.400
Mm-hmm.

00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.920
They could do it again.

00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.039
So we had a 20th century John the 23rd.

00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:10.559
And a 14th century slash 15th century John the 23rd.

00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:12.400
That's not confusing.

00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:21.359
So through all that, Benedict the Thirteenth continued to insist on his legitimacy from southern France and Aragon.

00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:30.880
So how is are they just like, hey, um the money you collect at church, send it to this address instead of to the one in Rome?

00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:32.720
Is that like how they did it basically?

00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.720
Because that's how they get funded.

00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.039
Yeah.

00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:35.359
Right?

00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:43.119
They're taking their they each have their own bishops and clergy, and yeah, they would go directly to their pope.

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.000
Right.

00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:51.839
So by 1414, the church realized it needed a more serious solution, and they convened the council of Constance.

00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:54.319
So they're gonna elect a fourth pope?

00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:55.839
No, thankfully.

00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:56.799
Thank God.

00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:05.920
So the bishops, the theologians, the ambassadors, and representatives from nearly every Christian kingdom created this council.

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:06.559
Okay.

00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:18.000
So where Pisa had kind of improvised, Constance used more structure with broader representation and a more clear determination to end this sh schism.

00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:18.960
There it is.

00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:28.160
Okay, so the the Pisian Pope, John the 23rd, tried to flee the council, but was caught and then deposed.

00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:28.799
Okay.

00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.240
Why did he try to flee?

00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.440
I have no idea.

00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.279
I'm like, I don't like this, man.

00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:34.079
I'm gonna go.

00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:36.000
No, you gotta fucking get back here, dude.

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:36.799
We gotta depose you.

00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.039
Gregory the twelfth um actually volunteered to resign.

00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:41.599
Good.

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.599
And that gave this council enormous credibility.

00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.240
Sure.

00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:46.960
Mm-hmm.

00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.319
And then there was Benedict the Thirteenth, and I'm the Pope, bitch.

00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:51.279
Yep, he's the Pope.

00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.640
He's the last obstacle.

00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:54.160
Nope, not gonna do it.

00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:55.359
Of course not.

00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:03.039
He he he expressed that from getting office right away, even though he's a On saying, hey, you might have to resign at some point.

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:03.599
Yeah.

00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:04.480
Just saying.

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.039
Um, I will tell you he's he's a fucking politician.

00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:08.960
I mean, look at our politics today.

00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.079
All of the politicians are like, I will run on this and then I will not do a fucking thing about it.

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:16.480
Andor go against it.

00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.319
So he's a politician.

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:30.240
So high-ranking churchmen and respected ambassador traveled to Benedict's court hoping that respected voices delivered face to face would persuade him to give up his his claim.

00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:31.359
Do you murder him?

00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:31.759
No.

00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.640
Oh, thank God.

00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:41.440
They argued theology, canon law, and the needs of the church, even the practical realities of Europe's situation after decades of division.

00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.400
Benedict rebutted every point.

00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:50.240
Monarchs who had once supported him, especially the king of Aragon, pressed him to step down.

00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:57.519
Um, count the council drafted formal appeals, uh, theological arguments and legal explanations.

00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.960
They offered compromises, safe retirement, honorary position.

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:04.319
He rejected them all.

00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:05.920
Oh, he wanted to be Pope.

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:11.440
But by this point, Benedict the Thirteenth was in his 70s and nothing could budge him.

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:19.359
He insisted that he alone had been a legitimate cardinal before the schism began, therefore, he retained the true authority.

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:22.880
Yeah, but there was other legitimate cardinals before all that too.

00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:24.240
So, okay.

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:31.599
So when it became clear that he wouldn't back down, the council finally declared him a schismatic.

00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:32.799
Oh.

00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:35.680
And deposed him in 1417.

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.400
So they said we don't care what you say.

00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:38.720
Yeah.

00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:39.680
Is basically what they said.

00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:43.759
So I had to look this up because why wouldn't they just declare him deposed anyway?

00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:44.160
Yeah.

00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:45.359
Why wait so long?

00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.240
Because I don't know, they're stupid.

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:53.920
So they needed the Roman Pope, Gregory the S uh the 12th, to cooperate.

00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:54.799
And he did.

00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.240
He ended up stepping down.

00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.640
And that's what gave this council the legal backbone it needed.

00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:01.039
Right.

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:01.519
Okay.

00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.559
They also wanted all factions on board.

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.160
So deposing Benedict the Thirteenth prematurely would have alienated kingdoms that still supported him.

00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:10.960
Gotcha.

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.240
Okay, that makes sense.

00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.720
They couldn't risk another splinter in the group.

00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:15.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.640
Then they also had to handle John the 23rd.

00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:19.200
Right.

00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:26.960
The the Pisian Pope fled Constance early on, and the council had to chase him down and depose him.

00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.039
And that actually took a couple months, apparently.

00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:29.759
I'm sure.

00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:31.279
I mean, especially back then, yeah.

00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.880
And then um, obviously there was hope that he would actually resign.

00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:36.160
That didn't happen.

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.559
Um, and then his legal argument argument was difficult to dismantle.

00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:50.000
So he claimed that he was the last surviving cardinal from before the schism, meaning that he had the right to make or break popes.

00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:55.920
Canon lawyers had to work very carefully to dismantle that claim in a way that Europe would accept.

00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:56.640
Sure.

00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:03.519
So by waiting, they made it indisputable that Benedict was the obstinate one.

00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.079
Yeah.

00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:07.680
And this helped prevent backlash when they finally deposed him.

00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:08.319
Gotcha.

00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.240
That makes sense because he was adamant that he's no dude, I'm the Pope, man.

00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:14.480
Yeah.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:15.839
I don't care what you say.

00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:26.559
But with doing it the proper way, finally, after a hundred fucking years basically, they uh finally like, yeah, let's do this right and get him out of there.

00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:27.440
So okay.

00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:35.599
I'm just now recognizing that when I first talked about Gregory the Twelfth, I might have said Gregory the Seventh, because I was looking at a V Not next.

00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:38.960
I think that's why I got so confused.

00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.799
It was Gregory the Twelfth the whole time.

00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.160
We'll have to we'll have to see if that happened.

00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:49.839
I'll uh I'll be interested to edit this one.

00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:52.640
So, okay, so Europe accepted this decision.

00:33:52.960 --> 00:34:00.079
Martin V was elected pope soon after and widely recognized as the new unified leader of the church.

00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.960
Martin, that seems like a terrible pope name.

00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:08.000
But Benedict the Thirteenth refused to recognize any of it.

00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:08.880
So what?

00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.199
One fucking guy, who the fuck cares?

00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:12.000
I know.

00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:20.079
He withdrew to the fort fortress of Peniscola of the Aragonese coast of Spain.

00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:20.639
Okay.

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.559
Um, there is a dramatic like citadel that's still there.

00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:25.280
Oh, nice.

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.800
It's it over it's huge and it overlooks the Mediterranean.

00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:33.280
So he continued to act as quote unquote Pope there.

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.559
So he issued um these formal papal decrees called papal bulls.

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:38.880
Yep.

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:40.960
He appointed new cardinals.

00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:46.000
Um, he sent letters to kings urging urging them to return to the true obedience.

00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.039
Oh, Jesus Christ.

00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:54.000
His house household grew smaller every year, dwindling to a loyal handful who aged alongside him.

00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.639
Yep.

00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.719
In Rome, Martin V governed a reunited church.

00:34:58.960 --> 00:34:59.440
Sure.

00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:12.079
Benedict the Thirteenth presided over a papacy that consisted of a fortress, a few devoted people, sure, and of course his unshakable belief that he is the rightful pope.

00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.840
But even though everyone else in the world knows he's not.

00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.760
So some contemporaries didn't couldn't agree on how to judge him.

00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:28.559
Some saw a man of extraordinary principle, others saw pride masquerading as righteousness.

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:30.960
And isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:31.679
Weird.

00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.119
And later historians often settled somewhere in between.

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:39.440
A figure whose rigid conscience was both admiral and tragic.

00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:40.480
Admirable.

00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.119
Yeah.

00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:52.960
Benedict the Thirteenth died, still convinced that Rome had deserted justice and he had not.

00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.440
Okay.

00:35:53.679 --> 00:36:02.000
On his deathbed, determined to preserve what he believed was the true papal line, he appointed four new cardinals.

00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:03.360
Oh Jesus.

00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:06.239
They elected a successor.

00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.960
Clement the Eighth, recognized only in a sliver of Aragon.

00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:21.039
One of the four cardinals refused to join the vote and elected another pope.

00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:28.480
This one is called Benedict the Ten Five Four.

00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:36.000
The Fourteenth.

00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.880
Two rival popes within the tiny remnant of Aragon.

00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:42.079
Wow.

00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.440
Okay, real quick, what happened to Benedict the 14th?

00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:45.840
Yeah.

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.400
He had no real following, no recognition, no political support, no influence.

00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.159
Yeah, because he was only elected by one.

00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.320
Yeah, he was illegitimate.

00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.519
Yeah, he fizzled nearly complete uh immediately.

00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:57.920
Right.

00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:06.239
So within a few years, Clement VIII reconciled with Martin V and back in Rome, finally snuffing out the last member of the Avignon plank claim.

00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:07.280
Oh, Jesus.

00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:07.599
Okay.

00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:15.920
So especially in Aragon, Pedro de Luna remains far more comp more complicated than the label anti-pope implies.

00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:25.440
He is remembered as El Papa Luna, the mooncrest pope whose iron will outlasted councils, armies, and nearly a century of upheaval.

00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:31.519
Anti-popes, am I right?

00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:32.320
Am I right?

00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:34.159
Jesus Christ.

00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:42.000
Well, and like, yeah, they can say all that they want, but he was just a stubborn fuck who wouldn't give up his seat because he wasn't the legitimate pope.

00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:42.639
I know.

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:44.400
Even though in his eyes he was.

00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:49.440
I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm just the way I'm looking at it, he was not the Pope.

00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.880
Because the Pope is in Rome, like that one song said.

00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:53.840
I can't remember.

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.239
It was came out in the 90s, but anyways.

00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.760
Yeah, I I'm sorry about the uh the number of popes.

00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.199
It got really fucking confusing.

00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.239
It got really confusing, and I I really do think I missed misspoke on that one.

00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:08.880
Yeah, Gregory the Seventh when I meant the twelfth.

00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:16.239
Well, maybe when you s if you do say it wrong when I edit, I'll just I'll just randomly edit in like seven.

00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.360
It's supposed to be twelve.

00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:20.639
You know what I mean.

00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:21.679
Twelve.

00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.360
I might have to do that because that would be fucking hilarious.

00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:27.920
Pope Clement the Twelve.

00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:34.239
Because I'll use my voice because it will be so much better.

00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:35.119
Wow.

00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.920
Okay, that was that was hard to fall.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:38.639
That was confusing.

00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:40.320
I know I'm so sorry.

00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.039
Um, that was well just say weird.

00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:44.159
It was weird.

00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:45.519
Well, I suppose.

00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.800
All right, buffoons.

00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:48.159
That's it for today's episode.

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:52.559
Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time.

00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.960
Feeling hungry for more buffoonery?

00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.920
Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.519
Hit us up on social media.

00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:06.400
We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook.

00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.880
You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com.

00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.000
We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:18.880
Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:22.480
Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.280
Remember, the buffoonery never stops.