Seven Siblings and an Orphanage: The Orphan Train

Meet The Hosts And Grab Drinks

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Oh, hey there.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I'm well, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I'm well, I am Bradley.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

I'm Kate.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

We are the history book Buffoos. I was gonna just kind of ask you how you are today, but I did that right. So what do we got first? Let's get right into it. My bad.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Um, we are going to talk about a man named Lee Nailing.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Nailing? Like I'm nailing a board or something.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Okay. He was one of over 200,000 children sent west on the orphan trains.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

In the United States. Orphan train? I don't think I've ever heard of that before.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Oh, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

200,000 children.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

It's a lot of children.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

A little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Because what what year are we talking?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

So the orphan train began in like the late 1800s and then it went through 1929.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Oh, so it was like 75.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

It was like 75 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Longer than I would have guessed. All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Alright, so two disclaimers. It's really warm in here. So we have the fan on. If you hear any noise, I apologize. I'll do my best in editing to get that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

But we would rather stay alive than melt on camera.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah. That would be something.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I don't need that.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I don't need to go viral while I'm dead. So that got dark. That got dark real quick. Right quick? We went to the gas station near Kate's house because we didn't really feel like going all the way into town to get podcast beers.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

And like going all the way into town is like 15 minutes, but 15 minutes there, 15 minutes back, 10 minutes to pick it out.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

We just we wanted to get to recording. So we went to the gas station. Like, oh, let's look at the single store. I'm like, hey, we both like monster. Let's try The Beast. Um side note, I looked at the date. They were both produced in June of last year. So I'm guessing, being a former beer salesman, these don't sell very well. They probably have a longer shelf life than a beer does because of what they are. But I don't know what those are.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So mine's called Killer Sunshine, and it has six percent alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Mine is white haze, also, with set six percent. So what we do have, just in case, a pack of beers if we don't like these. So don't feel obligated to drink these. Okay. Or to drink yours, I should say.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Okay, mine tastes like orange.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Mine tastes like white. I don't know. It says white haze. That is actually far better than I expected. Same.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

It tastes like monster.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah. Mine maybe a little different than the normal white monster. Yeah. Uh Monster Zero Ultra. But uh Wow. I am pleasantly surprised. I don't normally drink shit like this anyways, because it's usually really sweet. Yeah. So um yeah, that's interesting. And they're also 24 fluid ounces, so we're sucking this down for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Okay, so let's get into the orphan train.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

The orphan train of the mid uh mid-1800s, early 1900s. Okay, let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

So um I read a children's book.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Um Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Technically, it was written for children. Oh, okay. But I would say like tween age.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Oh, so it was more like what are those books? What is the books that Amy always reads? Um YA Young Adult books, whatever they call them, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

But but even younger than that because young adult is can be a little spicy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I read the um Orphan Train Rider, One Boy's True Story. Okay. And it was written by Andrea Warren. I got it on Kindle, it took me about an hour to read.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So you you had mentioned you read a book for this and you said you got through it real quick.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, but it was super simple, easy easy reading. So I'm not upset about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

No, but that makes more sense now because it being more geared towards uh tweens or whatever you call them. Yeah, yeah. What's up, tweeny bopper?

Lee’s Family Falls Apart

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Right. So we're actually gonna go to the year 1924.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Oh, that's a good year.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

So just five years before they stopped the orphan trains.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Because you said it stopped in 29.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Okay. Yeah. So 1924, um, Lee Nailing is seven years old. Okay, and he lives in upstate New York on a farm with his father. He is the middle child of seven.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Oh, God.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yes. So he had two older brothers, Ross and Fred.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

And an older sister, Evelyn. Okay. Um, and then then there's Lee. Yep. And then there's three younger brothers, Leo, Gerald, and George.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Oh, so just the one sister, six boys. Yes. Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yes. All of them come back around, but I'll do my best to kind of help you remember who they are in the lineup.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I definitely won't remember names and or age.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah. Um, the ones that we're going to be talking about the most is Leo, his next youngest brother. Okay. Um, and then and uh Gerald, the second to last. Yeah, right, yeah. Second to last. Okay, so they actually had two uh other siblings, but they died in infancy. Oh, gotcha. And then the reason was never really made clear in the book. Disclosed.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Um and then at just 35 years old, Lee's mother, Julie, died um from complications following the birth of her youngest child, George. Oh, bummer. And after that death, it left a pretty large gap in the family. His father was overwhelmed with grief. Sure. And for a short time, he did try to hold things together and care for all seven children on his own. Okay. But the strain of it, whether it was emotional, physical, financial, all of it. It was more than he could sustain.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And at one point, at some point, something kind of gave.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Okay. So um so what happened to the father? What's the father's name again? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

I don't have his father's name actually. No, it wasn't disclosed in the book. That's all right. Yeah. So Lee's father made a series of decisions that ended up scatter scattering the entire family.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

That's sad.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

That's too bad.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

So he told the three oldest children, Ross, Fred, and Evelyn, that they would need to leave and take care of themselves now.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Oh wow. How old were they?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

That it was not disclosed in the book. I know. It's good. So you said Lee was seven at this time. Lee was seven at this time.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

So anywhere probably from eight to nineteen old?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

That's just obviously a huge guess.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Huge guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

But okay. I'm guessing they're probably closer to like the 12, 13, 14, 15 range. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah. I I do have, I think the ages of the younger ones. Okay. Just because Lee is the main focus and we know that he's seven.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

And Leo is a year younger. And then baby George, there's Gerald, but then Baby George is an infant.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah. So re fr uh Ross, Fred, and Evelyn um needed to leave and take care of themselves. And then they keep doing that. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Splashed at me.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Oh. Um, but then the infant George was sent to live with family friends. Okay. While the second youngest, Gerald, just one year old at the time, was taken in by another family.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

That's all we know of that. And like I said, this was geared towards more tweens, so there's not a ton of detail. So my apologies, but the basis is there.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah. So basically, that's the end of Gerald's story. You want to go live with uh almost. Not quite, but does he come back up too? Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah. So it is clear at this time, though, that Lee actually his name is Alton, but I'll get to his name change later, but we're just gonna call him Lee.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Um, Lee and his younger brother Leo were taken to the Jefferson County Orphan Asylum in Watertown, New York, which is like super upstate.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

It's when you whenever you put an asylum word on a place, yeah, it gives it a very dark undertone, doesn't it? Sanatorium. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like the Metallica Sanitarium.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Did I say it wrong?

SPEAKER_02 9:27

You said sanatorium. Isn't that a real thing too, though?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

What's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

I I don't know. We'd have to look into that.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Sanitarium and sanatorium. Is one British?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Maybe. Is there a you in it?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Is there a you? Lee and Leo uh were told that they were orphans. And Lee remembers being really confused by that.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Well, because he still had a dad?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, he had a father. And for a short time, his father even paid the orphanage three dollars a week for their care. But that arrangement didn't last very long. And before too long, Lee and Leo were then considered wards of the state. No one visited them in any way.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

That's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah. It was just like they're paying for it, and then all of a sudden he's not paying for it.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

I just I don't I don't know how you could do that. I get the grief stricken all that and the financial thing. I get it, but man, that's fucking weird to me.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I couldn't imagine just oh there you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah. It's sad.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Peace out, homies.

Poverty And Child Survival In Cities

SPEAKER_00 10:34

So before the 1800s, children in situations like this might have been taken in by neighbors, extended family, or friends. Right. Um, but by the time that Lee arrived at the orphanage, the system was breaking down under pre under pressure. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Why?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Because I don't want to pay them money.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

There were simply too many children. Industrialization was changing the way that people worked. Farm machinery were reducing the need for labor in rural areas, whilst factories in cities drew in massive numbers of workers, creating fierce competition for jobs. Right. Wages dropped and workers became super replaceable. There's another five lining up for your job. Pretty much. So at the same time, hundreds of thousands of immigrants were arriving as well, all competing for the limited availabilities, opportunities, resources, housing is starting to become scarce, rent would rise, multiple families crowded into small apartments, and food became harder to afford.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Everything you're listing off is going on today, too, which is fucking wild. All right. Jesus. But yeah, like raising rising food prices, rent going up, house, whatever. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Low wages, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Terrible.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yeah. We're gonna have to start moving in with neighbors, I think.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Fuck that.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I choose not the neighbors to the south. Yeah, south. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

I had to think about the direction. No, I would have corrected you.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah.

unknown 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

I wouldn't I wouldn't move in with Lyle. He's a pretty cool dude.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

It's my one neighbor.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Your single neighbor out in Boonies.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I have I live on an old farmstead. Mine is like the original house of it, but there's two houses to to the to the west of me. Um so I have two neighbors, but direct neighbor, one. I don't have anything on the other side, it's just a field. So yeah, Lyle's cool, dude. He'll come and shovel or snowblow my driveway from time to time for me and help out, or I'll I'll help with the mailbox area and whatever with him.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

So shout out to Lyle.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Lyle Lyle.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

So children started to become part of the solution. Kids as young as five or six worked long hours to bring in a few pennies. They would sell matches, shine shoes, peddled newspapers, picked coal, or ran any um errands, anything to help. Some begged on the streets, just barely old enough to walk. And with all of that, it wasn't enough. No. So entire families could work and still not survive because there was no welfare system, no safety net to catch them when things were falling apart. So poverty uh forced impossible decisions. Some parents left or infants where they might be found or cared for. Others abandoned them in places where survival was unlikely.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Oh, how could I get times are tough, but come on, man.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I think abstinence would be the best policy.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Well, and that's the thing. I mean, obviously, you can't control outside forces creating difficult times. And you're not like, man, feel like there's gonna be a downturn in the market in a couple years. Probably should hold off having a kid. You don't know those things, obviously, or whatever. But some of these people just they clearly did not care. Yeah. Because it, I mean, again, we don't know their whole story, yeah, but it doesn't sound like they tried, right? I mean, am I wrong on how that comes across at least?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

I feel like this was like a subtle increase, and like to find out you're pregnant, and then nine months later you're like, crap, we're in a really bad situation. Like that it that would be rough, right? It would be rough, yeah. But at least give the child a chance by putting it maybe a church, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

A church, or isn't that still you can still leave it at a fire station? I don't know if they had it back then, but yeah, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Oh gosh, what is that called? There's a there's a there's a term for it, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:59

I don't recall, but you can yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Um no questions asked, leave it at a exactly so older children, sometimes as young as six or seven, were pushed out simply because there wasn't enough space or food to keep them, aka like Lee's family.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Thousands of children ended up on the streets surviving however they could, and the law offered little protection. Jesus. Children were treated as adults, meaning even young kids could be jailed or worse for stealing.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

I mean, obviously, if it was worse, bad idea, but like shit, I'd want to get caught stealing.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I bet the steals go to the jail. The jail systems probably weren't good.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Oh, in the 20s? I mean, they're not good today. Could you imagine what they were a hundred years ago? Yeah. Fuck that.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

So most children in orphanages came from that reality. Many weren't actually orphans. About half still had at least one living parent who just simply couldn't take care of them. Um, others did disappear completely, but for children like Lee entering an orphanage felt uncertain and permanent. Like there wasn't any, like he had no hope really, even.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Well, how could he?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Seriously.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

So life inside the orphanage was difficult. Uh Lee remembered being hungry most of the time. Sure. In his book, he said, quote, many nights I went to bed with my stomach growling. The food I remember eating was most the most was paint was potatoes. Excuse me. The food I remember eating the most was potatoes. We never got fresh vegetables or fruits. We never got a piece of candy. Both Leo and I were thin. End quote.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Not surprised.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah. So um Lee actually also carried a scar on his arm from a moment when another boy stabbed him with a fork as he reached for a biscuit.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Oh. It's kind of a dick move, man.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

It was his biscuit.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

The kid's biscuit?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

It was, yeah. The kid with the fork. It was his biscuit, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Well.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Food was also used as a punishment, and children who misbehave were denied meals, which often meant that Lee went out went without food because he fought constantly. Oh, did he really? Yeah. Later he would reflect on his temper during this time, recognizing that while it caused problems, it also helped him survive a little bit because he refused to be pushed around or accepted, um, or accept being treated as worthless.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Well, you gotta, you know, you're in a shitty situation, kind of, kind of literally on your own, more or less.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

You gotta fight for your fight for your right to party. No, that's a piece of voice thing. Um you gotta fight to protect yourself. Yeah. Even at that tender age of seven. Fuck, that's insane.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah. And Leo was probably six.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Right. Late fives, probably six for sure. Yeah, that's just crazy. Yeah. I no, no, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

So the adults in the orphanage were not abusive, but they were distant. Yeah. They were distant, they were stern, they were structured, and they didn't have any affection. Okay. Lee says, quote, what I learned was that all adults lie to you. Our father had deserted us, our other rel relatives didn't care about us. The people running the orphanage did only what they had to do for us. I came to distrust distrust anything an adult told me.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Can you blame them?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

No.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I mean, starting just take everyone else out, but the dad were like, uh, what the fuck, man?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

And then you get all these other people that like you said, they're they didn't work harmful to the kids, but they were just distant, you know, no love, nothing. They weren't there for love and affection. They were there to try and maintain the abundance of kids they were given. So it's like, yeah. Oh, poor Lee.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

So that distrust in adults stayed with him throughout his entire youth. Sure. He thought about running away often, but he couldn't leave Leo. Right. He felt responsible for him, watching out for him, holding on to belief that one day they would leave and somehow find the rest of their siblings and be together again. The two of them stayed in the orphanage for two years. Oh, wow. So now he's nine years old. Yep. Okay.

Charles Loring Brace’s Placing Out Plan

SPEAKER_02 19:38

He's a man at this age.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

No kidding.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Fuck.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

In 1926, Lee, Leo, and ten other children were given news that felt fairly exciting. Well, they got to go on a train ride.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah, but there's it's a one-way ticket, dude.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

They didn't know where they were going.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

They didn't know why, but it felt like something different, so they were excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Sure, I mean, at least at this point in their lives.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

And these trains were called the orphan trains.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

So the we're talking about New York right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Was there multiple like on the East Coast that did this, or was it mainly from New York that you even if you the majority, the majority came from New York, but other places like more East Coast, Baltimore. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yes. Boston, probably. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Um, so orphan trains weren't new at the time. Um, the system had already been in operation in the United States since 1854. That's crazy. Yeah. Growing out of an earlier effort to solve a problem that cities like New York could no longer contain.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

I can't believe I've never heard of this, though.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

75 years. And that's why it's like it was around for a long fucking time. Yeah. I never heard about this. That's strange.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

So the effort began with Charles Loring Brace. He was a minister who spent time working in the slums of New York City and became deeply troubled by the number of homeless children that he saw there. Sure. He understood that these children, um, what these children needed far went far beyond um temporary help. Like they needed housing, they needed medical care, food, clothing. Education. Yeah, education, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Exactly everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

And stability. They needed stability.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

So he founded the Children's Aid Society in 1853. Okay. So creating an organization built not just to provide relief, but to actively change the traject trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Trajectory?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

That's the one of children's lives. Trajectory. Did I say it wrong again? Trajectory. Trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

You didn't say it wrong, you just said it weird.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

So Brace later described the children who came through his doors as some of the most heartbreak breaking sights he had ever encountered. Young girls in rags with nowhere to sleep, children pushed out of unstable homes that were shaped by alcohol and poverty, and orphans who survived wherever they could find space, whether that meant a box, a stairway, or a doorway. So there were boys cast out by stepparents, newsboys who answered the simple question of where they lived with nowhere, and children working as boot blacks, peddlers, and flower sellers, all trying to get without slipping further into trouble. Sure. Of course, some already had um pit pockets or petty thieves, though even then many were still trying to find honest work. So that steady stream of children, each carrying their own hardship and loneliness, stayed with him. Sure. Brace. So hearing those stories again and again was not something that he wanted to ignore anymore. So he began reaching out to people with money and influence, asking him them to support his efforts. Okay. He wrote articles, gave paid lectures, and used whatever he earned to fund programs that, in his view, did more than offer charity. They created opportunities for children to change their own circumstances and help themselves.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

So me having a seven-year-old, and I obviously understand times were different 100 years ago, first and foremost, they're put in this shitty situation. You know Xavier. Could he survive doing this? I don't think so. But also, we're I'm raising today. I don't know if I'd say sheltered compared to them, then yeah. A f a fucking a possum in a live trap is more sheltered than that kid. So I mean, whatever. Yeah. I'm just saying I can't picture it. No. That's all I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

I think if Vesper was seven, she would be beast.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

She would be fine. She would be fine. She would be fine. Because she is a pistol. Jesus. Oh man, she thinks she runs the fucking house. For sure. And I'll tell her no.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Please.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

It's like I just said no. And then she gets mad at me. Because she didn't like the outcome. It's like, well, that's fine. Yeah. You gotta learn. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

So uh Charles Loring Brace did not believe orphanages were the answer. No. So in his view, they were overcrowded, impersonal, and ultimately ineffective at preparing children for independent life, as we kind of heard from the two years that Lee was there.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

What children needed, he believed, were real families. And so he began to look beyond the city towards the West, a place where he and many others saw a full opportunity, stability, and people willing to take in a child as both help and family.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Sure. Yeah, more like uh mobile adoption agency.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. So but like on the up and up, not like Georgia Tan.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Fuck Georgia Tan. We keep bringing her up and saying she sucks.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Because she's like one of the e most evil per people that we've like covered. One of them.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

One of them. Because like we haven't gone straight on with some of the most evil people because everyone does those. Everyone does those, yeah. From what we've done for story wise, she probably was, if not the most very damn close, the most evil person we talked about.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

But like at least this person, uh Bra Brace, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Um is trying to help these kids out.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Not be like, oh fuck them kids. I just want to make money off you. Right. You know? So that's kind of refreshing.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah. So from that belief came a plan that he called placing out, in which children would be sent by train to rural towns and placed with families with local communities helping to ensure those homes could provide proper care.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

So did I don't know if this is even mentioned or said or anything. Just best guess if not. Did he have to like go communicate with these towns then and basically just be like, hey, I got this thing going on?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Will you assist me kind of thing? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Because I mean, obviously, you can't just be like, hey, this train ends in name your town here, get off there, and good luck.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Right, right. No, he actually tried to have a plan in place. Good. That's that's awesome. So in 1854, the Children's Aids Society tested that idea by sending 46 boys and girls to a small town in Michigan. And when every child was taken in, the success was immediate and very and fairly convincing for him. He was encouraged by those results, and the organized organization began sending larger groups farther west, expanding what would eventually become become known as the orphan train movement.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

A system that over the next 75 years would grow into the largest migration of children in history. Well, when you put it like that, you're like, oh, oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Well, even when you said like the orphan train, the first thing I thought was like I don't want to say sinister, but like bad. I'm like, oh great, what what they do? Run this train off an unfinished bridge? Yeah, yeah. Take care of the problem. Oh, I see. Yeah. It doesn't sound the the the name of it doesn't have a great connotation.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, more or less. And like I said before, not all of them are actually orphans. They have a parent that just can't be with them.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Well, no, it's not they can't be with them, it's it's their parents suck.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

I mean, I'm sorry. It sounds like most of them did because they just got rid of their kid. So fuck them.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

But so Leo, excuse me, Lee, yeah, not having known any of this history, because it's already been going on for seventy years, whatever. Yeah. Um, he remembered the day that it became pertinent to him. Okay. He and Leo and uh um other children about 10 were dressed in brand new clothes, something he's never experienced before. He always had hand-me-downs or whatever. Um, but it made it them feel special and important even as if they were going to be sent somewhere meaningful. Sure. And at the crowded train station, the the noise and the movement and the hustle and bustle and the the anxiety kind of only added to that feeling that something was something exciting was about to happen.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

It added to the excitement because it's stuff that he's not used to. Yeah. So he's like, what's going on over here?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah. This is amazing. So get this.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

What? Yeah, that's what I need to get. That sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Standing there waiting to board, yeah, Lee put his arm wrapped around Leo, holding on to something that was familiar to him, and he heard his name being called. He turned around and a man stepped forward holding a small child, his father.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Was it the Gerald?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

And it was Gerald.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Gerald was one. Gerald was the second to the youngest. Oh, that's right. He's that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

There's a lot of George. George. That's why. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

So Gerald was the second youngest, and he was one when he was being given away, quote unquote. Yeah. So his father was there with Gerald in his arms. Gerald, who is now three years old, was to go with them on the train. Lee says, quote, I didn't remember Gerald since he was only a year old the last time I saw him. When I asked my father where the train was taking us, he said to find a family who could care for us. How could this be? I insisted we wanted to be with him. I begged him to keep us, but he kept saying he couldn't, end quote. Before they boarded, his father handed Lee a long pink envelope already stamped and addressed to himself and told him that once the boys were settled, he should write his father and let him know where they were.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

No, fuck you. Why?

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Because he still loved them. Did he though? He just didn't have the means to care for them. I don't even know what he did for a living.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Well, didn't you say they were farmers?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Oh yeah, I did say that.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

That was like my first sentence.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

A long time ago. 30 minutes? Give or take.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

So on the train, Lee found himself adjusting quickly to something that didn't make sense. Gerald is all of a sudden with him. Younger boy was like easily set settling in between him and Leo and clinging to them as if they've never been apart, even though Lee had no idea where Gerald had been these last two years.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

And and and there's no way a one-year-old who's now three remembers these brothers. We also be a familiarity to them, but that it would be fucking it.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Yeah. And then we also don't know how long Gerald was with their father.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Because didn't you wasn't so George was given to the other family, but wasn't didn't you say Gerald originally was given to like family friends?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

George went with family friends.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

So I have him backwards.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Yep, that's okay. And Gerald was taken in by some other family. We don't know. Right, right, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

So apparently the other family's like uh sorry, dude. Yeah, we we gave it a try.

unknown 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

And who knows for how long, too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's been two years, but as far as we know, Gerald was only there for a month. Yeah. Or whatever, you know. We don't fucking know. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

So meals on the train were simple sandwiches, fruit, and milk, but to the boys it felt like in abundance.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

They ate eagerly smorgasborg for the finally enough for them.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Right. And at one point, there's a matron on the train, and she told Lee to remove his jacket to keep it clean. But he argued with her and refused because that envelope was tucked safely inside. And he actually showed her and said, I don't want to take it off because I have this envelope to my father. I want to keep it on, I want to keep it safe. And she's like, Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yes, until it's not.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Oh, wait, is there a reason to say that?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

So as the journey continued, more children joined them at Grand Central Station in New York City. And by the time the train pulled away, there were around 50 children packed into the cars, all moving to the West with some unknown future. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

That's crazy.

The Pink Envelope Gets Stolen

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So as Lee helped Leo and Gerald settle into the seat, he carefully placed his jacket beside him, making sure that the pink envelope was still there. He allowed himself that this might not be a permanent situation, that his father might come back or he might reunite with him. So he had this hope in this envelope. Sure. He fell asleep smiling, and by the morning, he looked in his jacket and the envelope was gone.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Why would someone take that?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Of course, panic set in when the matron approached and told him to stop looking for it. She made it clear that he would not be getting it back.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

So she had taken it. Why?

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Well, I think I quote said something in there. I don't remember if it was right here. It must have been somewhere else I said that.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

But that's not ultimately what it was for. I mean, yeah, Lee had hopes for it and thought that might be the case, but now Yeah. Okay. What a what a see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah. So agents working with the Child's Aid Society would travel ahead of the trains, stopping in towns along the route to gauge interest and prepare communities for what was coming, putting up notices, spreading the word locally, and organizing screening committees.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Made up of respected citizens who would evaluate whether families were suitable to take in a child. They tried really hard to do their due dil diligence. Seems like it, yeah. The intention in theory was to create some level of oversight, as Charles Loring Brace did not want children formally adopted until it was clear that the placement was a good fit. Sure. Which meant that many early riders were never legally adopted, even though they would often adopt the last name of the families. I get that. So agents would return periodically, sometimes once a year, to check on placements as well. That's kind of nice, yeah. And they would ensure that conditions were acceptable. Though the reality was the more children, the less opportunity they had to do that.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Well, you have to keep going further west, more or less.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. And then not every home was safe.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Of course not.

The Texas Lineup And Separation

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Some children were inevitably placed into difficult or abusive situations. Yep. Even so many placements were considered successful. And during the first 20 years of the program, roughly 3,000 children were sent west each year. Oh wow. Turning what has started as an experiment into a system that would that moved thousands of lives at a time. Sure. So by the time that Lee, Leo, and Gerald had been on the train for about a week, the journey finally brought them to Clarksville, Texas. Oh, wow. And the number of children had already been reduced by half.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Okay. The remaining children were taken to an old hotel and lined up on their stage one by one. And this is how it did with all the communities. They would line up the children and the the Oh, that one's cute.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Exactly. Come here, boy. Exactly. What the hell? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

And kind of terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

If you think about it. Because again, hopefully most of them are for the good. But like you said, some were not good situations. And it's like, yeah, give me that one.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

So there was one part, I didn't write it down, but um, there was one time when they were all being lined up and some big farmer came over to Lee and like was checking out his muscles. Stricken nine. Yeah. Checking out his muscles. He had even like looked into his teeth and Lee bit him on the finger. Yeah. He didn't get chosen that day.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

I wonder why. So was Lee trying to keep all three of them together though? Oh, yeah. Was that like a point for this with them?

SPEAKER_00 37:45

I I'll I will tell you. Yeah, very soon I will tell you.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Okay. And okay. I too much.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Like sweet?

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah. Like I'm almost done with mine. I know I have a better opportunity to drink mine. There's no way in hell. I'm only gonna finish this because I don't like wasted money. But there's no way in hell I'd ever buy this again.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

At least, especially not in this size can yeah, this is a lot. I think they do they they do they do come in a variety 12 pack with normal size cans, if I'm not mistaken. But I don't recall again. I've been out of the business for a bit.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

But even Monster by itself is larger cans, aren't they? They're taller cans.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

They do have bigger than 16-ounce cans, but not this big. No.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Okay. So the fam the the kids were lined up one by one. A man and a woman stopped in front of Gerald. Okay. The three-year-old. The woman spoke softly to him, not sure what was said. And of course, Gerald at three was not fully understanding of what was happening.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

No.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Excuse me. Um he simply smiled back at her. And when the woman opened her arms, Gerald went in without hesitation. Oh, she wants a hug. Without saying a word to Lee or Leo, the couple turned around and just walked away carrying him with them.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

So at first, it was a little bit too quick to process, but then Gerald in this woman's arms is starting to realize that he's being moved away from his brothers, and he begins to scream. He cried out for Lee and Leo, um, but the brothers had to stay there. They had there was nothing they could do.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

That's sad.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Not long after, another couple approached Leo, who is probably around seven or eight.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

They asked if he wanted to go home with them. And Leo's first response was not about himself, but about Lee. Can Lee come with me? And the couple agreed. Oh wow. That's nice. Just like that, the two brothers left together to go home with Mr. and Mrs. Rogers, an older couple whose own children were already grown. Oh, wow. Okay. Um, so Leo adjusted quickly. Um, within days, he was already calling them papa and mama, um, slipping into like their rhythm of home and just that connection.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Their routine and all that, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Lee did not.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

He was cautious, guarded.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah. He also dealt with the most shit because obviously, being a little bit older than Leo, he had to go, you know, protect him in the orphanage and all that stuff, whatever. So, yeah, of course he's gonna be a little more cautious. Yeah, and he doesn't trust adults, and it's really sad that he we're saying that uh Lee had to be cautious. It's fucking nine. I know sad that he had to be so guarded at such a young age because he did not trust adults, which again, don't blame him. Yeah, but man, that's just sad. That what a what a terrible way to grow up. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah. Um, but even so, even though he was cautious and didn't exactly trust adults, over the course of the week he did begin to relax.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Good.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

The farm offered something unfamiliar to Lee and Leo. There was space, there was outdoors, there was food, there was a chance to explore. Yeah, they could run around and yes, and for the first time in a long while, both boys were able to experience something close to normal childhood moments.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Fishing in the pond, chasing animals, eating real meals, and finally being able to bathe properly because they're also on this train for a week. No shit. You know? I can only imagine. So for a moment it felt like this could absolutely work. Okay. And then seven days later, so a week in, literally seven days, there was a knock at their door. And Lee says, quote, when Mrs. Rogers opened the door and the matron from the train came in, I panicked. What was she doing here? If there was one person on this earth I didn't want to see, it was that horrible woman who had stolen my pink envelope, end quote. This decision had been made. The Rogers only wanted to keep one boy and they chose Leo.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Oh, so that's why they she came.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

There was no other reason, but it must have been financial as well. I don't know. Or it wasn't disclosed.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Maybe because Leo adapted so quickly and Lee didn't. They're like, eh, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

So they're gonna tear the brothers apart, huh? Yeah. They've been together all this fucking time. That's sad.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

But Leo did grow up with these two, and it was a very loving home for Leo, right? That's good. So Lee was taken away. As he was driving off, he looked back and saw Leo running after the car, screaming for him because he didn't know what was happening until it was happening. Um that's sad. Yeah, and of course it happened kind of the same way as when Gerald left. Just overall sad.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

So Lee's next placement was not good. Oh boy. The couple he was taken to showed little interest in him at all.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

And this is still in Texas. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Everything about the experience with this couple felt cold. The drive to their farm was silent, dinner that night was silent, and there was no sense of belonging there in any meaningful way.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

It was almost like they just hired a farmhand, more or less. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

So the only moment that stood out to Lee was when the man showed him how to. Bed down the chickens.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Giving him a task, something to do. And for a brief moment, Lee had a little sense of per uh purpose.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

So the next morning, trying to help, Lee went out to the chicken coop on his own. His so shoes were soaked in dew. He remember being told that the chickens and the chicks spent their days outside. So he opened the cages and let them out, believing he was doing the right thing. Oh boy. By the time he returned with the man after breakfast, the chicks were dead.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

What happened?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

They drowned in the dew. Oh my god. Something I would not have thought of.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Why would you? I wouldn't have thought of that. That's fucking wild.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

And neither did a nine-year-old child. Well, no shit. The man turned to him and said, quote, did you open the cages? Did you know them chicks drowned in the early dew? They wasn't to come out till the sun dried up. End quote.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

No, he wouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Cool. You should have told me that last night.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah, you shouldn't have just told me part of the story. Oh dear. So did I get rid of him then?

SPEAKER_00 45:12

That night the matron came back.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Oh fucking, he's just gonna get traumatized by this matron.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Yeah. Lee was taken away again. The next placement brought him to Manchester, Texas, which is near the Oklahoma border where he was taken in.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

The pan? Not the pan, the chunky part of Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah. Um he was taken away.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

The floor of the pan, the handle.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

I didn't knew what you meant. I know, but so he was taken in by Ben and Ollie Nailings. Ollie? Ollie's the woman's name. I figured. Ben and Ollie Nailings.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

I didn't think it was Ben.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

So at this point, Lee carried an attitude.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Oh, nailings. That's okay. So this is where he ends up staying. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yep. So he carried an attitude, it shaped everything he had experienced so far. Loss, separation, broken trust. Can you blame him? He had no belief that this situation would be any different. Yep. Ben was friendly and Ollie was kind, offering him food and small comforts. Um, but when he took but when they took him out onto their farm ground, the man asked him to go stack some wood on the porch. Lee immediately bristled at the request, seeing it not as an option, but more of an expectation.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And Lee said, quote, It looked to me like the Nailings thought they'd found themselves a chore boy. I turned to him and said, Do it yourself. I don't come here to I didn't come here to work for you. That response earned him a sharp swat to the butt.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

And in that moment, Lee made up his mind that he was gonna run away that night.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Oh boy. But we all know better.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Ever even after that, Ollie took him inside and showed him his bedroom. His own bedroom. His own bed.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Was it a race car bed?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

His own bedroom was something he's never had before. Oh yeah. Seven siblings, you know?

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah, so from where hephanage.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Seven siblings and an orphanage. That might be the title. Sounds like a fucking weird sitcom.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

I'm gonna write that down. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Because yeah, I mean, why wouldn't he be like, oh my god, I actually have a room? I mean, he's literally never experienced this before. Never. Uh, do you know? Did was there any other children at the Nailings place? No.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Um, they did not say if they were childless or anything like that, I don't believe.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

They grew up like that that other older couple or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

So his own bed, his own bedroom, but still Lee was suspicious. He was convinced that the kindness was temporary, that it would be followed by demands or disappointment. Ollie tucked him in and actually kissed him on the cheek. And he's never experienced something like that in the last two years.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Well, especially because Ma died, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

And then uh orphanage, you know, whatever. So any he hasn't had any affection whatsoever. And for uh, you know, I show affection to Xavier all the time. I show affection to Vesper all the time, and she's just you know, but then she'll give it back from time to time. But Xavier, he has a hard time, but he's seven. I get that. So I don't force it.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

I don't he's gotten better since I've known him. Like I hear him come up to you all the time, can I have a hug? Or you tell me that.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yeah, like it's so cute because like he wasn't feeling good the other day. Um and so Sarah went to bed with Vesper. Xavier wanted to sleep with me because I'm his like comfort zone. And um he purposely woke up before I left so he could get a hug. And I wake up super ass early, as you know, for work. So um he wanted to make sure he got a hug from me before I left. So I know I love that. I know, he's a good boy, he really is.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

So so that kiss on the cheek was a small gesture that carried more weight than Ollie knew, and even Lee knew.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

That night Lee ended up crying for half the night. Oh whether it was from the kindness or the confusion or everything that he had been carrying, he couldn't quite say. Um, but he would never forget that moment.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

So before dinner, yeah with Ollie and Ben.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Are we talking like the next day kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

So I think I I might have mixed up the timeline um because he was only there for a day during this part of my story. Um, so they must have had dinner and then went to bed. So my apologies if I got that out of order. That's fine. But um before dinner, Ollie ended up praying. And in that prayer, she thanked God for sending them their new son. Oh. And that's the words that she used.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

That sounds like a good reason why he might have been kind of crying at night. So maybe that was prior to either way. Well, that's that had to mean something to him too.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

You would have he felt wanted.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

They fed him well, um, bought him new clothes, um, introduced him proudly to the community over the next couple of days, included him in their daily lives in a way that didn't feel forced. Um, and at the end of the day, he started to feel like okay, I maybe they want me here. I could see myself staying here and calling this home.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Yeah, it's like I could hang out for a little while.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah, so they were a really good couple.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

So in 1910, a report from the Children's Aid Society claimed that 87% of orphan-trained children did well, suggesting a high level of success despite their difficult beginnings.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Many writers went on to become influential figures. Really? Governors, judges, lawyers, teachers, soldiers. Um, others built really stable lives, strong families. There was a man named Andrew Burke and John Green Brady who rose to um positions of leadership. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Over time, the orphan train movement was seen as proof that placing children in families could excuse me, could be it was a hiccup thingy.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah, but and I've heard you do it, but like the fact that you did it, like and then you just kept blah blah blah. It's like, what the fuck? That was I don't know. It just was weird. Anyways, continue.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

The orphan train movement was seen as proof that placing children in families could be more effective than institutionalized care.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Even if the system wasn't perfect. Sure. The program ended in 1929 due to new child labor laws, adoption regulations, reduced immigration, and the introduction of welfare programs that helped families stay together.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Oh, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

As social systems improved, large orphanages were replaced by foster care.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

But the legacy of the orphan trains did remain significant with millions of descendants tracing their roots back to the children who wrote them.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

That's wild. I mean, it's it's is there it sounds like there was some good bookkeeping. Like, do they have like over the 75 years, like a list of all the excuse me, children that were sent west?

SPEAKER_00 52:59

So there is a museum type of thing in Kansas. Really? Um, I don't recall Concordia, maybe if Concordia's a town there.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

If that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yeah. Um, and I think I read something about like they have 8,000 names. I mean, that's pretty good. Yeah. I don't know if it was for Kansas specifically or if it was for the whole program. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

8,000 out of 200,000. I mean, not a good batting average. Yeah. But um it's well, um over time 1800s. Am I right? Yeah. Things get lost.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah, but it sounds like they tried really, really hard to make it successful in in the right like sets, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

In the right way.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Which is which is great because um you took a shitty situation in an overcrowded town, yeah, city, whatever you want to call it. I was like New York City, but um and you tried to make the best of it.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

And like 87%, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

I feel really bad for the 13%, obviously, because I mean there's no way you were gonna get a a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

No, because people are still awful in the eighteen hundreds.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Well, they're still awful today. Yeah, so people are people, and so you you're not gonna get a hundred percent. 87% is pretty fucking good though. Yeah, it is. You just gotta kind of a little feel for the 13%, you know. For sure. They obviously were looking for a better life too. They're fucking kids, yeah. They don't know better and they're trying to, you know, get a better life, and then I get into a shitty situation.

SPEAKER_03 54:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

But um, no, that's so I'll be honest, when are you done with your story or do you have more to go? I have more to go. That's okay. You continue, and then I'll say what I was gonna say later. Are you sure? Yeah, I thought you were done. I apologize.

A New Name And Staying Connected

SPEAKER_00 54:54

That's okay. So after some initial struggles, Lee gradually settled into life with the Nailings, earning respect at school, making friends, becoming part of the community.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

They treated him like their own. Yeah, they gave him a pony, a dog, new clothes, and then a new and also a new name. So if you recall, I said that his name was Alton.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

And everybody called him Al. But for some reason, Ollie hated the name Al. She um corresponded that name with someone she didn't like, and she thought that Lee's middle name was was so let me rewind. Alton, his middle name was Lou.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Oh, she thought his middle name was Lee.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Ollie thought it was Lee.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Oh, so she started calling him Lee.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yes, so he his name changed from Alton Clement to Lee Clement Nailing.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Oh. Oh, it's nice that they kept his middle, his, his maiden name.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah, his biological aspect.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Yeah. Um, so at least, you know, even though, again, whether whatever the fucking dad's intent was, we'll leave it at that, yeah. Being said. But you know, I'm all about like my my family. Like, I wish I knew more of the history. Unfortunately, one of the biggest proponents of that is gone now. And he never even fucking talked about it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

So your dad. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Um, but it's nice they hit they left a little bit of his well.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

His history.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

Yeah, his history, his heritage, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

History is probably better, but um so the the nailings also made sure that Lee stayed in contact with his brothers Leo and Gerald.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Oh, really? So they were able to find out where they went and everything? Yes, yes. Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

And they would arrange regular visits so they could spend time growing up together.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah, and they would like um switch off what family they would stay with for a little bit. So Gerald had a good family, Leo had a good family, and then the nailings.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Yeah, Leo had a good family. Just you don't want me? Fuck you. Just kidding. Um, so did they ever, ever find the three older ones again? Yes, they did. Yes, holy fuck, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

So I will continue.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Yes, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

That's okay. Although Lee came to love his new family and life in Texas, he still carried quite an emotional weight from his past. Sure. He would often wonder about his biological family, and he still mourned for that lost pink envelope. Of course, yeah. Because it was his connection, it was the potential for connection.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

In his world, his only piece of connection to his family past, whatever you want to call it, because you're fucking nine.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

And we're in 1926. Yeah. It's not like, hold on, let me Google this. Yeah, obviously. So it's like you you you had limited fucking availability. Yeah. Shit. Even if you sent a letter, then who knows when you're gonna get it? Kind of shit.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

So over time, Lee's anger softened. He grew to genuinely love and trust the nailings, eventually seeing them as his true parents and embracing the life that they gave him.

SPEAKER_03 58:22

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

As he matured, he became more outgoing. He did well in school and sports, stayed close with his brothers, and worked hard on their farm and in the family business, which was never disclosed. Oh, okay. Um, but in the end, despite everything that he had lost, Lee came to see his new home in Texas as the best play he could have grown up.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Place?

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Yeah, best place he could have grown up.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

He said play.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

Sorry. I'm like so as he grows older, Lee builds a full life. He works hard at the family business, marries a woman named Novell, and starts a family on his own. I like that name. Novell. Yeah, I do.

War Years And Building A Life

SPEAKER_02 59:03

I like that name.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

But World War II happens.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Oh dear. Does he go to go to work?

SPEAKER_00 59:09

So his brothers, Gerald and Leo, are already serving time a serving time, serving in the army. And Lee was then drafted. Ah. Okay, so all three of them are are in the war. Okay. And of course, tragedy strikes.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Gerald was held captive as a prisoner of war by the Japanese. And at one time, he is on a Japanese ship with other American prisoners of war. And not knowing that there were American prisoners on this Japanese ship, we unknowingly sunk their ship.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

How would they have known that though? They wouldn't have. You can't fault the people that do that. They think they're taking out a Japanese ship. I mean, it's not like they got the fucking manifest.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Yeah, it was one of our submarines. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

There's some Americans on here. Don't think it's like they wouldn't have had that information. Does it suck? Obviously, but you can't fault them for that. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

So after the war, Lee returns home and settles into a stable.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

So you said that was Gerald. Gerald. And was George, you said also in the war? George, we had not George. Leo. Leo, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Leo was over there as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

So both of them made it back though. Yes. Okay, cool. Yes. So I don't know why I said George there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

That's okay. I know there's a lot of names.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

I think because Gerald. Yeah. The G got in my brain.

Reunion With Brothers After 60 Years

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Um Lee returns home and settles. Um, he becomes a business owner, not disclosed what it was. Sure. He raises his children and remains close to the Nailing family. And in Ollie's later years, she ends up moving in with them and he's caring for her. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, all in all, it's a good life full of family respect, purpose. Um, but he never forgot his origins. In 1984. Oh shit. Sixty years later. A newspaper story about Lee. Again, not disclose what it was about. If it was about the orphan trains, if it was about Lee and the community. Yeah, we don't know. Wow. Yeah. So he receives a letter after this newspaper article comes out that is someone from someone he doesn't know. Of course. But for the first time, he starts to learn some details about his biological family.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

This letter says that his older brother Ross is alive. Wow. And in the letter is a phone number or a way to get in touch with Ross, and Lee does it immediately.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Oh, I I mean, I've I bet as soon as he got to that part, where's the number of the biologist?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Fucking hell. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

So he said this is one of the most powerful moments in his life. Sure. Before meeting, he admits his uncertainty. Lee says, quote, I wondered if Ross and I would feel any kind of bond if we would know we were family. Right. But the moment he sees him, that doubt disappears. That's awesome. Lee runs forward to throw his arms around the brother he had not seen in 60 years. That's crazy. The connection is instant and overwhelming. It was wonderful. No one can imagine the feeling. This was my brother and I loved him. End quote. Aww.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

That's awesome. Is that the only sibling he reconnected with?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

So, yes. Um, so through Ross, yeah, Lee learned a little bit more about his father as well. Okay. Ross and Fred, the other oldest boy, lived on the streets for a while. Sure. Yeah. And he hears that their father had seen Ross and Fred on the streets. And his father had been distant, as he was a troubled man and someone who barely acknowledged Ross and Fred. Right. Yeah. So that was kind of sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

That's sad. Um I mean, he gave his whole family away. Yeah. He's obviously troubled.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

So I mean, yeah, that sucks that he saw them and didn't even do anything, but he gave them away.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah, and but Lee still remembers that moment. He said, quote, that day he gave me the pink envelope. I think he really cared about us, end quote.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

He probably did. I mean to a point. To a point. But again, grief stricken from losing his wife. Yeah. When the because the wife died having George.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

George. Or complications of birth. Could have been immediately afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Yeah, maybe not die giving to birth. But yes, yes, yes. Because she gave birth to George, she ended up passing away.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Um I get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Maybe it was childbirth fever.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Ignaz.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Ignace and blue vice.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Wash your hands, bitches.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

So the reunion doesn't stop with Ross. Good. Lee Crick reconnects again with his surviving brothers. Okay. Leo and George, the baby. How did they find George? It's not disclosed. That's fucking amazing. Yes, but Ross said that George was still living in New York City. So somehow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

So whatever family he ended up with somehow. Stayed there. He grew up there. Because I mean, fucking George would be 61 at this point. That's fucking or 60 even, maybe. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

So they spent time sharing stories, filling in decades of missing history, and just trying to be brothers again. Sure. And Lee says that those were the happiest days of his life.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Well, yeah, because he got to connect with his actual siblings. What any word on Evelyn or no?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Um she I don't think I wrote it down, but she was no longer living. Uh-huh. Was not said how she died, but she and um Fred were the were the two that had passed, and um then Gerald on the ship.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Right, right, right, right. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

That's so cool that he was able to reconnect with the living siblings. Yeah. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

So in his later years, Lee s reflects on his journey as a sense of gratitude. He speaks to others, especially children, about resilience, loss, and the importance of choosing how to respond to hardship because he grew up so angry. Who wrote the book? Her name is Andrea Warren.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Does she have a connection with him at all or just knew the story?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

I you know, I didn't look into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

That's okay. Sorry. Okay, continue. With your thing. I was just I wanted to say something otherwise.

The Orphan Trains’ Mixed Legacy

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

So Lee found not just one family, but two. Right. He was able to bring them back together. For sure. And of course, Lee's story is just one out of the thousands of children. 200,000, you said, right? So the orphan train movement ran roughly from 1854 to 1929 and relocated an estimated 200,000 children from crowded cities, primarily New York, to rural communities across the United States. It is often considered the largest child relocation effort in American history. And like most large-scale solutions, it lived in a complicated gray area between rescue and risky.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Sure, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

So on the hopeful side, many children like Lee were placed with families who genuinely wanted them. Some found stability, opportunity, and a sense of belonging they had never known. A number of riders went on to become business owners, community leaders, and public officials.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:09

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

The program helped shape early ideas of foster care and adoption systems that we still recognize today.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

Sure, except for Georgia Tan.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

But of course, the reality wasn't always kind. There is a harder side. There was no consistent screening processes early on. They tried their best. Yep. But children were sometimes chosen in what essentially looked like public lineups. Some were taken in as labor rather than family, expecting to work farms or households with little emotional support. Siblings were frequently separated after never seeing each other again.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Yep. Unlike, I can't believe they were able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Records were poorly kept, making reunions like Lee's extremely rare. Yeah. Many children experienced neglect, abuse, or lifelong identity struggles from not knowing where they came from.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Um historians estimate roughly two, excuse me, roughly half to two-thirds of platement placements were considered stable or positive. And that leaves a significant number where the outcome was uncertain or difficult. And maybe that's just the truth of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

No, for sure. I mean, and it wasn't intended to be, but that's what it ended up being to a degree. Because you're gonna get, again, humans being humans, yeah, there's shitty people in this world. Yeah. In the 1800s or the current present day, there's shitty fucking people. So you're gonna get some that are like again, yeah. Well, all right, I'll take you because I need some help on my farm to go do this. Yeah, this is your job now. Go fuck yourself, do it, or get the fuck out, or whatever. Or and and you hope that's like the bottom, but I bet there was even worse, yeah, which I don't even want to bring up.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

So a system built with good intentions, carried out imperfectly, that changed hundreds of thousands of lives in ways that no one could control. And every once in a while, like in Lee's case, those lives circled back. Yeah. Um, not perfectly, but enough. Um, enough to stand in a doorway, see a familiar stranger, step out of out of a car, and realize that after 60 years, you finally found your way back to where you started.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

That's crazy. And that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

And that is Lee Nailing's story, his um um experience on the orphan train.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

So I'll be honest. So, what I was gonna say before, you weren't done, so I apologize. But I'm like, you said the orphan train. I'm like, did they just put orphans to work on trains? I mean, they're tiny.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:01

Like the train yard or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

No, like on trains. Because trains are tight. Yeah, they've been on trains before, right? Like an actual train train.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

Yeah, once or twice. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

I would love to I there's uh a train called the Zephyr. It goes from uh Chicago to I believe it's San Francisco and then back, but it goes all the way through like the mountains and stuff and whatever. I want to get a sleeper car and go on that. That'd be fun. Anyways, but I was like, oh, they send him to work at the train. Or like I said, they kind of well that bridge isn't done, send him down that rail.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:37

Took care of the problem because that would have been fucking tragic.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

That would be so tragic.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Well, I'm just glad that he was able to reconnect with some of his family that he always longed to do and never wanted to leave. Just unfortunate situations that he was put in and had to. And the fact that even if it took 60 fucking years, he was able to reconnect with his some of his siblings that were still around. So that's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:10

Isn't that awesome?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm just floored that you gave me a somewhat uplifting story, not a fucking Debbie Downer. I mean, obviously, yeah, there were some hardships and whatever, but ultimately it was a good story and an uplifting story that a lot of these kids not all, unfortunately, a lot of these kids were given better opportunities because of this. Um what was the guy? Brace, what was his full name again?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

Charles Lauren Brace.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:39

What a fucking visionary at the time, 1853, right? To to to do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

56, yeah. Yeah. Are you sure you want to double check that? 1856.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

No. He started his thing at 56. 53, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Preserving The History And Rider Reunions

SPEAKER_00 1:11:58

Okay, so I found a note from the author, Andrea Warren. Okay. She said, that we know the amazing history of the orphan trains and the stories of many of the writers is due in large part to Mary Ellen Johnson of Springdale, Arkansas. Oh. When Mary Ellen learned about the orphan trains in the 1980s, she began searching not only for additional information, but for the writers themselves. Oh, wow. Through her efforts, the first union of orphan train riders came about, and it grew into an annual national gathering as well as state gatherings that continued over two decades. That's cool. Mary Ellen helped found the Orphan Train Heritage Society of America and became its director. Through the years, she collected and published the stories of many writers. Today she is retired, and it is the national and it is the national orphan train complex in Concordia, Kansas, that is carrying forward the mission of preserving the history of the orphan trains.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:00

It is the complex is housed in the former train depot in Concordia.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

And it includes a small museum dedicated to the writers.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:08

I mean, it should be in a train depot.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:09

Sure, sure should.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

It's the orphan fucking train. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. See, and it's it's cool when people like that can fucking, I don't know, bring shit like this to light. Because we we never would have known about it. I I never fucking heard about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

And I'm not saying I know everything about history. That's why we do this. Because you teach me shit, more or less, is what it is. Right. I never even fucking heard of anything about this. So that's that's really cool. That um it's a cool cool cool story. I don't know. It is a cool story. I don't know what better to say on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Welp. I suppose. All right, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:46

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:58

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at historybuffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

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SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

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