The Duty of Candour: The 1989 Hillsborough Disaster Part Two

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Oh, hey there.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Oh, hey there.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:22

I'm well. I'm Bradley. I'm Kate. The history buffoons. I don't know why I said it that way.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

You sound like it too.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Well, I am joining up with the circus uh couple weeks.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Just practicing.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, I'm just getting ready for my performance.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

The Brewers. The Brewers have been kicking butt.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

They had that one loss so far, right? That's okay. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Out of what, six games? Seven games? Eight games? Six? Is it six?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, I think they're five. Five and one sounds right, but either way.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

They've been kicking some ass. They have been. Um, I cannot wait to get to a game.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

We we love William Contreras and Sal Freelig.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

I named a cat after him.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

You did name your cat after him, Sal. I uh forgot to tell my put my phone on airplane mode. Let call please.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Hold the phone, literally. Literally. No, I I've been really enjoying watching the games. I missed it on Wednesday because we my son's been off um uh spring break for him. And so the wife took off, and I met him up after work. And oh, okay. I'll save part of this for the beers. What are we doing today?

Hillsborough Part Two Recap

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Oh, we are doing part two of the Hillsborough disaster from 1989. Crazy. Um, I'll give a quick recap if you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah, why don't you? Just in case.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So on April 15th, 1989, the Hillsboro disaster um is a soccer stadium, and thousands of Liverpool fans were directed into the Leppings Lane end, which is an entry point of Will's um Hillsboro Stadium, where poor crowd control and too few turnstiles and a lack of coordination um created a real really dangerous bottleneck outside the grounds. And in an attempt to relieve the pressure, an exit gate was also opened.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Which was a huge mistake.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yes, and it allowed allowed a surge of people to enter without being redirected, and many of them funnel straight into an already overcrowded pen behind the goal.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

And was it 96 people?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

96 men, women, and children had lost their lives because they were unable to move, unable to breathe, and they had compression asphyxia.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, that's so sad. And and the one we're focusing on is the two young girls who lost their life. Part of uh, let me try and not remember. Trevor was the dad. Yep. Um Julie? Jenny. Jenny. Jenny. I knew it was a J.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Sarah and Vicky. Vicki, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yep. So that's the Hicks family, which whom we are following.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

But Sarah was 19 and Vicky was 15, and they both died in the disaster.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

I mean, they had literally no life. So much life ahead of them, is what I mean to say there. But Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

So part one is all about the Hicks family and the day of the disaster.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Um, and very briefly what happened after the disaster. And then this part two is basically the aftermath and all and the um basically the court ruling. All the court stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

We're talking decades of court rulings. So we're gonna go into that today.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So fucking tragic.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah.

Beer Pick And Mall Storytime

SPEAKER_00 3:50

All right. So what what do we have to drink? So we have had some of their beers before. Okay. Uh it was the hot dog, but it's not actually hot dog. Well, what was that called? Uh, wasn't it just hot dog lager?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Was it hot dog that I got for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Explorium brew pub. Explorium, oh, thank you. Oh, hey, I got some of your cat hair on my naturally. It's in your house, so there's cat hair.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

And Explorium Brew Pub from Greendale, Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, so the place we went to on Wednesday after I got up done with work, I met the family at this it's Southridge Mall is what it is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Um, fun fact, uh, when Sarah's mom was still working, she actually worked, I think it was an HR, if I'm not mistaken, for Boston store. She worked at that Boston store in Southridge Mall. Boston store's not a thing anymore.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Is that Yonkers and it's similar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

It's similar to a Yonkers. Yeah. Um that's right. You're not from around here, so you probably didn't know much about them.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

I don't know how worldwide or nationwide even what's the hell the H1, Heltsburgers or Heltsburg or something?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

No idea.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

They're from so I grew up with Yonkers.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, I we didn't get Yonkers till way later because I was used to Boston stores here.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

And then I got like in back in Carney, I got like Heltsburg, something like that, but it's all kind of the same brandish type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

It's pretty much the same thing. I think Boston's there. Yeah. But anyways, so in this mall, there was a arcade place. They had bowling, they have pool tables, they have a bar, nice, uh, a ton of claw games that apparently just take your money. Oh no. Uh, a lot of arcade games, pretty cool place. My son loves that stuff, whatever. But I knew that this place was also they had a place in there. Um, or I don't know if that's their main place, it might even be their main place, to be honest. Anyways, so I go, we're doing our fun things. I'm like, all right, let's go look for this because I've never seen it. I've I haven't been to Southridge Mall in years. And um we found it. I really wanted to have a beer. Yeah. So Sarah took the kids to the food court. They don't need a beer, we'll just go. Yeah. So I went and said, I was gonna go up to the bar just because obviously I'm not eating there. And um, I'm like looking at the bar. There's guy here, seat guy, whatever. People I'm like, I just kind of cozied up in between this lady and this this other gentleman that was sitting there. Asked him for the beer menu, and he's like, Yeah, go ahead, whatever. And then I just eventually just said, Is anyone sitting here? He's like, Oh no, you are man. I'm like, all right, cool. Through so to cut this a little shorter, he's my son's fucking Phi Ed teacher.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

What's a Phi Ed?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Physical education, Jim.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Oh, Jim.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

He's my son's gym teacher. Yeah, awesome. We found all of this out through just random conversation over a beer, over a couple beers. And uh, and uh it was really funny. He was a super nice guy. So this was um that so this is at their their brew pub in Southridge Mall. So explorium. So I have Lost in the Sauce, which is uh VX series, not sure what that is, but it's a um it's a hazy, which is it I so I obviously I've had this before, so this isn't new to me, but I have the Swiss Hull Foss Lager. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

If I'm I'm not German or Swiss, I guess it's more Swiss. Either way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I th I think you're gonna like it.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

I'm gonna open it now.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Well, did you read like more of it?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

No, just that it was from Glendale.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

No, like the style, isn't it? There wasn't it something?

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, Swiss lager.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, it's a Swiss lager aged in white oak.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yes. Yeah. So cheers.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Cheers. I have no nails because I'm a therapist now.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Well, yeah. I like I thought you might. And the reason why I thought you might is because I bought a four-pack of each of these. I may or may not have had one of each. They were just so good. I really liked his beard. This is great. So shout out to Explorium, shout out to uh my uh son's gym teacher. That was a really fun conversation. And this other people, and then Hunter, the bartender, he was one of them. He was super nice. So all really cool people there.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I really need to just stop talking to people.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

You do talk a lot to a lot of people, but I just I'm I'm uh but see, you get to know people and you find out that they're your son's gym teacher, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

So it's it's not just a random yeah, whatever. It's like you get to know the person a little bit, you know. Like I was at um that place, someday I'll take you there. Uh that bar that I like, that's not too far from my my work. And I gotten to know the bartenders really well, whatever. And I was there having a beer, and this young dude, I think he's 22, sat down to start shooting shit with him, and he does construction and stuff and whatever. And this other girl sits down, you can tell she's really tan, so she's not from here. Found out she's from Florida, but she grew up in Indiana. She's now gonna be a volleyball coach in at the Arrowhead High School.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

So it's just like you find out just random shit, and just like I can talk to pretty much almost anybody. Yeah. So um, but uh yeah, anyways. So let's get let's move on to this wonderful, uplifting, yeah, bright story.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

So Hillsborough, as oh, I'm in the I think my my mic has been Oh, did it? Yeah, it's like been going down steadily.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

That's all right. Fix what you need. Okay, we're doing this live, folks. Kind of live, live twice.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

So as I said, 96 men, women, and children had lost their lives. They were um yeah, they were fans that were pinned against metal barriers and other people. Yeah. Yeah, and the response time for the ambulances and the police and were really, really slow.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

So well, because you said, like they you said, they they thought they were just a bunch of soccer hooligans.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Then again, all I can think of is Eurotrip.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

But yeah, so so go back and listen to Hillsborough Part One. It's called Um Help Us Brucey. Um it's it's a really great episode, it's a good story, it needs to be told.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

It does because it's such a tragic thing, and it's all because of some fucking people who just didn't want to take the blame and they passed it along, which we'll probably hear a little more of in this episode, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

But it it's it's just negligence from certain people caused this fucking disaster. And unfortunately, people like Sarah and Vicky, very young people, lost their life because of some dumbasses who just were just negligent. Yeah, is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, yeah, it was it was negligent, yeah, which is just really sad.

Early Verdicts And Vanishing Accountability

SPEAKER_00 10:48

But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

So since the disaster, there had been inquiries and things like that. So fast forward two years, right. Um, the formal inquiries um about what happened and who to blame was still proceeding.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

And the process finally reached reached its conclusion. And I mentioned this at the end of the last one.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

The jury returns with a made majority verdict verdict of accidental death on these fans.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Which just doesn't make any sense. I mean, I mean, unless it's murder or whatever, it's every death is kind of accidental, more or less when it comes to something like this. But it's like there were steps that could have been taken to prevent these accidental deaths, and it's all because of the certain well, that what's that one guy's name?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Uh David Duckenfield.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

How could I forget Duckinfield? That's such a weird name and such a douche. But, anyways, personal Bradley opinion. But it's like clearly decisions made by him could have prevented these. So, yeah, I get they're accidental and and what they came with the ruling, but no fucking way, man. Yeah. Just look at the story. Yeah. Anyways, all right.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

So accidental suggests something that was unavoidable, something that could have been prevented. Um, but by that time, the families, sorry, by the time that ver verdict had come out, the families had basically, we've heard enough, we've seen enough.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

They heard about the overcrowding, about the failures of crowd control, and about the decisions that were made or not made in the moments that had mattered most. So months later, in October of that same year, another development was happening.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

David Duckenfield, the officer who had been in charge at the stadium on the day of the disaster, retired from the police force on medical grounds. Guess what his medical discharge was? Oh boy. Depression and PTSD.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Post-traumatic stress disorder. So this kind of acknowledges the human impact of this disaster. Not just the ones who were killed or the family of the close, you know, family of the people killed, but also the people in charge. It was a massive disaster. Right. And it created problems in all areas.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Jesus Christ. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

But him retiring also effectively removes him from the system before any meaningful accountability has been established.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I don't see how that would remove him, though. Right? I mean, he's there would be no He didn't die.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

No, but he's no longer on the police force. So even it w there's no longer a punishment, essentially. At least as far as his work life is concerned.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, but I'm sorry. You were in charge during the timing of this, just because you retired. So what you're what you're telling me is I could go basically uh do something terrible at my job, but then retire, and I'm I'm I'm okay then. Right. I mean, that's horse shit.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Right. So there is no public examination tied to his departure. There's no egg resolution, it's just an exit. Um, but then on January 1992, disciplinary action against superintendent Bernard Murray, the police control box commander on the day was also dropped. What the fuck? So another potential revenue of accountability disappears. Now I haven't spoken of Bernard Murray yet. He was the superintendent with the South Yorkshire police, and on the day of the Hillsborough disaster, he was stationed in the police control box. The control box was essentially the nerve center inside the stadium.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

From there, he and his officers can monitor the crowd, watch, pardon me, watch CCTV feeds that are live. Uh, a couple bubbles. And they communicated with units on the ground. So Duckinfield was in overall command, but Murray was watching what happened in real time. So Murray's disciplinary action gets dropped.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

In 1993, for many of the families, the fight had already stretched far longer than they imagined it would. Right. And now they're having to navigate courts and legal language and decisions to keep pushing. And in November of 93, six representative families brought a judicial review hoping to overturn the inquest verdict of accidental death. Okay. When the ruling came down, it didn't exactly go their way.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Lord Justice McCowan decided that the inquest had been properly conducted. So for families like Trevor and Jenny Hicks, it was another moment where the door seemed to close as they were trying to push it far open.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

By this point, so 1993, and my dates have varied between 91 and 93. Right. Jenner Jenny and Trevor have divorced.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Oh, that's too bad.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yeah. So somewhere in that two-year timeline, things alternative. They just so Trevor worked near Hillsborough or somewhere north of London, and Jenny stayed in London. It had always been that way, even before the accident.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

He would leave Sunday night for work and not come home until like Friday night. Oh wow. Yeah. So they were already basically living apart from each other. Okay. And after their initial grieving process, because I know grieving, you know, it's different for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

After their initial grieving process, it took quite a while to like get back into the swing of things, but eventually Trevor ended up going back to his routine of staying where his work is for five days.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

And just over time they ended up divorcing.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

That's too bad. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

But um Jenny actually remained relied heavily on her daughter's friends.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

She got to be really, really, really close friends with some of Sarah's close friends. Oh. Like they they would grieve together, they would they would call each other and go out to dinners and stuff, and they were just a really good support system for her. Um, Trevor was grieving, of course, but he was also organizing, speaking, and helping to hold the campaign together through the Hillsborough Family Supports Group.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Jenny as well remained deeply involved. So they still saw each other regularly.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

They just weren't together anymore. Yes. Yeah, unfortunately, that happened.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

And as far as I read in her book, they were it was pretty amicable and yeah, everything it it was okay. It happened, but it was okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Good execution on amicable because there's a lot of times I just butcher that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Amicable.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah. So I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

If the courts weren't going to reopen the case, the families would have to find another way to keep their story alive.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

And that meant stepping out of the courtroom. So by the mid-1990s, the campaign had shipped, shifted into something more public. The fight was happening in interviews, in public statements, and um increasingly how the story was being told to this wider world.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Right, yeah.

Families Go Public With The Truth

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Then in December 1996, ITV, which is a British broadcast television network, aired a drama documentary written by Jimmy McGovern based on research by journalist Katie Jones. It didn't present Hillsborough as a closed case, much like the courts think it is. It didn't repeat the official version of events. Instead, it told the story through the perspective of the families, their doubts, their frustrations, and their belief that the truth has not been fully acknowledged yet.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

So this mattered to Trevor and Jenny and those families. Because for the first time in a long time, the public was being asked to see the disaster the way that they experienced it. Not as an isolated tragedy, but as something that has been followed by years and years of unanswered questions and contested narratives. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

No, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

So this is um a drama documentary that you can find on YouTube with Eccleson. What's it what was his first Christopher Eccleson plays Trevor, I believe. Um and it's just called Hillsborough.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

The first time, I think I mentioned this to you. First time I ever saw him in a movie was Gone in 60 Seconds with Nicholas Cage. And my cat Sway and my Cat Memphis were named after that movie. Um Memphis came first and then Sway, and then Sway was my boy. Yeah. But Memphis was kind of a dick to it.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

So maybe we'll try to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah. Now, did you say okay? So that that was one. Did you say that was there anything else that was made about this? It was just that. Okay. And that was from '96, you said? Or no. It was mid-90s. I think when we looked at it, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah, there really hasn't been anything else. Which is kind of wild. Yeah, it is wild.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

But I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

So by 1997, yeah, the Hillsboro, um, the story of Hillsborough is still not settled, but it's but it's also not moving anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

It's fucking eight years later. Jesus Christ. Oh, it gets so much worse. I know it does because you always bring me uplifting tales.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

The families are still pushing, still asking questions, still insisting that's what's been accepted as the official version of events does not match what they know to be true.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

And under that pressure, the newly elected Labour government agrees to take another look. Oh. It is not a full inquiry. They are not reopening the case, but they are scrutinizing the evidence. Okay. And that is led by Lord Justice Justice Stuart Smith.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Well, they have to put the damn Lord Justice shit in there. Lord Justice, am I right?

SPEAKER_02 21:14

So basically, it carries a sense that this isn't about digging deeper, but more about is this worth digging deeper? Sure. Yeah. So as part of that review, something emerges. It comes to light that South Yorkshire police had altered statements of 164 officers before those statements were submitted to the Taylor inquiry from 1990. Holy fuck, really? It removed criticism, softened language, and reshaped how events were described.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

That is fucking terrible.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

The version of events that had helped form form the official understanding of the disaster had been completely edited. Yeah. This happened before the Taylor inquest. And yet it's still blatantly obvious that the police are to blame.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

And you wonder why people are sometimes at odds with law enforcement. And I know you can't take this one thing and put a blanket on it. Obviously, police are needed. They're a necessary thing in our communities and our in our in our world. But man, distrust brews from shit like this.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Because what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

You can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

There's supposed to be actual statements, like I sign off on this, this is what I believe, not well, let's change that. Yeah. Change this. Now it fits what we're trying to do. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Fuck you. Now it fits the narrative.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah. Well, and that's like the world we live in today with the news and everything. And you know, certain people will be like, and when I say certain people, there's one in mind that I'm thinking of. I may or may not be related to them. Oh, what'd you get it from? Name your certain one here. And I'm like, what the fuck are you getting your shit from? This it's you think this is so like one-sided, but that's what your news is, dude.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah, news definitely isn't it? It's it's not unbiased.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

It's not unbiased at all. And that's what it's supposed to be. You're supposed to report the fucking facts like this fuck or 150 fucks. Yeah. Well, it probably wasn't the people who gave the statement that changed it, right? Do you did you come across that at all?

SPEAKER_02 23:37

I don't remember if I wrote that down or not.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Okay. So it could have been, you know, a small group of people that, all right, let's change all these. Yeah. But I mean, as a you would think as a police officer that gave his statement of the situation or whatever. I didn't say it like that. Were were they all in on it then? Because oh Jesus. Continue making me mad.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

So even with that sitting in front of them, the home secretary at the time, Jack Straw, I love that name. Jack Straw doesn't believe there's enough evidence to justify a new inquiry. Oh, all these lies? No, it's not enough.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

That alone is enough. Seriously, what else do you need? All these things were altered to better fit the police force that was in charge on this day. That's not enough. So holy fuck.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Jack Straw recognizes that saying that outright wouldn't sit well.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Well, of course.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

And it wouldn't be accepted. So the conclusion comes with this should come from the government. Sorry, shouldn't come from the government. I'm like, wait, what? It should come from someone independent, a judge. Someone whose authority would make the decision feel final, even if the underlying questions remained.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, because there's never been a fucking bad judge before. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Let's refer back to Georgia Tan, shall we?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Oh, fuck Georgia Tan, that dumb bimbo.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

The Stuart Smith uh scrutiny goes ahead, and when it concludes, it does not recommend a new public inquiry. Despite the altered statements, despite the inconsistencies, despite everything the families have been raising for years, the altered statements suggest that the original narrative was reshaped. The reluctance to reopen the case suggests that those questions weren't being fully pursued.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

No.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

For Trevor and Jenny Hicks, and for so many others, this is another point where the system chose to close ranks. And another moment where new evidence surfaces but leads absolutely nowhere. How frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Extremely. I mean, how you s how are you supposed to believe in the system?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Like what year are we? 97? 97, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

97 now, yeah. Eight years. They've been dealing with the loss of their kids for eight fucking years. I mean, shit. Uh Vic Vicky was the younger one. Yeah. She'd be 23 now if they didn't fuck this up. And and Sarah would be 27. I mean, what the shit?

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Fucking hell.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

So by early 1998, because the years keep coming.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

That's the year I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Whatever hope they um had come with the review the year before starts to slip again. In February, Lord Justice Stuart Smith delivers his conclusion. There are no grounds for criminal prosecutions and no reason to overturn the original inquest verdict. So, despite the concerns that had been raised, despite the altered statements that had come to light, nothing is going to be reopened. And the government accepts this.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Of course they do, because it doesn't cost them anything.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

And Home Secretary Jack Straw backed the decision, effectively closing the door once more. For the families, it's another moment where the possibility of progress is slipped out from underneath them like a freaking rug.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Jack Straw should be more like Jack shit. Fuck that guy.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Each review, each decision, each opportunity to look again seems to end in the same place. Right. No accountability.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

So sad. So fucking sad.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

For Trevor Hicks, this is no longer a question of whether the system will c correct itself. Nope. Um, he's thinking, how long are they willing to keep pushing it? So his role within the Hillsborough Family Support Group isn't something that happens occasionally when he has the time. It is constant for him. Yeah, no doubt. He has meetings and statements and interviews and he's organizing and he's responding. And the work doesn't stop, even if the progress does and has. And behind all of that is the real reality that every step forward in this campaign means that he is reliving the worst day of his life over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Well, see, and that and that's the other thing, too, is like he can't put this to bed. Who could? No one, and like don't get me wrong, I've never have lost a child. Thank God. But like, I understand how he can't put this to bed, but that's all they want, is so they can fucking move on. Yeah. You can never get over the loss of a child.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

There is a movie somewhere, streaming somewhere, with Colin Firth, of course, but it's I can't remember the name of it, Lockbridge or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Is it Lockbridge? That sounds right. Is that right? No.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Continue on, let me so his family, he's got two daughters, I believe, and the oldest daughter.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

It was it was a mini-series. Like a mini-series. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah. Um that sounds right. His youngest daughter flies home to um college, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

And the plane explodes, and all all the passengers pass away.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

And he spends decades.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, we watched it. That was that was really good.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah, he spent decades finding the truth of what happened on that flight.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

And he's just like Trevor. He was like the head of the support group, just fighting all the way.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

No, that that was really good. Yeah, I forgot that we watched it.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

I need to look that up because if you haven't seen it, um, people who are listening, it is absolutely wasn't that Lockbridge? That sounds good. Something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

And it just came out what last year?

SPEAKER_02 29:58

No, I think it's uh maybe we watched it last year, but let me um let me try to find it because it is it is worth it.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Locker B. Locker B, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Uh from 2005. You're right. Um Locker B um is spelled L-O-C-R-E-R. Nope. L-O-C-K-E-R-B-I-E. Locker B a search for truth. It's five episodes.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah, it was a limited series.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

It's super, super good.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

So good. And obviously, Colin Firth. Am I right?

Years Of Silence And Stubborn Organizing

SPEAKER_02 30:29

And it's on Peacock or Apple TV. So, okay. Continuing on after that majestic sound. Uh, okay, as of the late 1990s, turn into the early 2000s. Jesus Christ. The story begins to fade. They've of course they've been keeping up with this story, this exposure for so long, but it's starting to fade from the national spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Well, and and that's unfortunate, but understandable. Obviously, time moves on.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Um and 9-11 happens, and I know that's not in the same country.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

No, but that was it was a it was a worldwide thing, yeah. And um, you know, it's shit. I mean, come the turn of the century, it's already been 10 fucking years since 10 and a half years since this happened, yeah. And um, you know, unfortunately, like, because you had asked me last episode, like, do you ever hear about this? I'm like, no, I'm I don't fucking remember, but so like when it happened, I was 10. Yeah, uh, not even I was nine. My birthday would have been later in the year, so yeah, I was nine. I I wouldn't have fucking heard that, obviously. Yeah, so of course, also being in the States doesn't help. Um, I never heard about this, so this is really fucking fascinating and infuriating, too. Really? Yeah, because all these people want are just the fucking acknowledgement that this is what it actually was, not the bullshit that fucking article did.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah, the son of God. The son claimed that the uh fans were to blame because they were drunk and yeah, disorderly, and they came late and they didn't have tickets and blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

No, well, and that one picture that you showed me where the literally, like you you talked about it, the the people in the next level up are pulling people. It's like Jesus Christ. Why would people be doing that if they're unruly? Yeah, there's clearly something going on. Look into it, you fucks.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

So um I put in some pic well, Bradley, um, as our editor, um, puts in pictures um in our on our YouTube channel, History of Buffoons Podcast, if you want to see some of the photos. But so um there are no major announcements in the early 2000s, no inquiries, no dramatic developments on the surface. It looks as if Hillsboro has been settled, uh, filed away as a tragedy and concluded.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Um, but of course, the families keep meeting, they keep organizing.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Yep, they keep speaking when they're given the chance. Yeah, even when those chances become less frequent. So they push for documents, they question insecurities, they hold on to details that others have moved on from. They are doing due their due diligence times a thousand to get the truth out there.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Well, and it's important to get the truth out there because again, you can't. The facts are facts. And you know, one of my fucking favorite sayings is uh This is my truth. This is my truth. No, that's your fucking opinion. It's not a truth. And they're trying to get past that kind of bullshit and be like, no, this is what fucking happened. Yeah, and we we need this to be recognized, acknowledged, and the people who fuck this up should be punished for it, yeah, honestly. Yeah, because it's complete n fucking negligence, and you can't just be like, Well, I'm gonna retire because I got PTSD because I fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, without saying I did.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, so can't touch me.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

So years pass quietly by 2009.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Jesus Christ, 20 years later.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Sorry, I got real low. 2009, 20 years have passed since the Hillsborough disaster.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

That is crazy, so crazy.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

And for a long time, it has felt as though the story has been left where it was, unresolved, no longer urgent to anyone outside the families who had been living with it. But anniversaries have a way of bringing things back around. They certainly do, they absolutely do.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Uh Nathan and Annie actually just had an anniversary.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Of one he asked you to I saw it on his Facebook, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah, nine years ago, I don't know, sometime this week.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, the other day.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

The only reason why he knows is because of Facebook, and the only reason I know is because he told me.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, exactly. And I think in his post, and again, I I very rarely go on Facebook, yeah, but I happen to for some oh um my old high school buddy who lives very close to me now, which is funny, because we grew up in Pewaukee and a little bit further away, and um, I run into him all the time. So he'll send me just random funny shit. Yeah, and it's usually through Facebook, yeah. So he sent me something, and then when I backed out, I'm on Facebook, yeah, Nathan's post. And it's like I'm gonna butcher it because I didn't I don't remember word for word, but it's like something where it's like, yeah, it's the anniversary of the day she said. All right, all right or whatever. Something like that. I don't know if that's the exact word he used, but it's like yeah, all right. All right, so yeah, that's right. I saw that. That's funny.

The 2009 Turning Point

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Anyways, anniversaries have a way of coming back around. All right. So in April 2009, The Guardian, another publication in um England.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I've heard of them, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Publishes a piece revisiting Hillsborough as an ongoing injustice. So yeah, they got it right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Well, at least the son didn't fucking do it. Yeah, pieces of shit.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

So it lays out what the families have been saying for years that the official version of events never matched the reality, that questions remained unanswered, and that the truth has never been fully acknowledged, or that people are being held accountable.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I have a question. Shoot. Uh, I don't know if you come across this. You hit if you did come across this, you say this later. Is that stadium still open? It is. Did they do some fucking renovations?

SPEAKER_02 36:46

They did.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Thank fucking do you get into that at all? Or I don't think I just came across it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Um, I think I did no, I don't know. I don't uh get into it, but they did re they they don't have any standing room, if I believe, if I'm correct. They don't have any standing room. So you shouldn't. Yeah, they don't have any standing room. They're all seats now.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

That one picture where they show the what what was the bar you called it? What was the name of it?

SPEAKER_02 37:12

The um anti-crush anti-crush bar or something. Again, that's in our um Yeah, in the last episode. Last episode on our YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Oh my god. Fuck you, dude. Yeah, those are just mangled.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

They're metal guards that were completely mangled because of the pressure of the bigger.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah, they were literally pushed like the metal broke because of how much pressure was on it. Think of that. Holy fuck.

unknown 37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Anyways. I just I I was curious if it was still open because of this start. Okay. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

So for many people reading it, this is not new information, but it feels new because it hasn't been in front of them in a long time.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Oh, of course. So well, and it's a new generation, 20 years. I mean, yeah, exactly. That's that's a long story. A lot can happen. More people, new people, people that didn't know about it, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Or people who are now in a legal position to do something about it or did it before.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Okay, just think you're, you know, you were four when that happened, and you're in you're in you're in England, right? Almost four.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

I'm three and a half.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Okay. I wasn't meaning you specifically, but yeah. But I was. Let's talk about Kate. You're three and a half. I'm three and a half. This this happens. Yeah. You don't fucking know what's going on. You're still like, ooh, doll or whatever, you know. 20 years later. You're now 23 and a half.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

I'm in law school.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

No, she wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

I wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

No way.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

But I'm in law school, and now I have a voice and I can do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

I want to help these people get some justice to this injustice, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

So you know something?

SPEAKER_00 38:59

I do. I have to pee. Oh, thank God. Because you know what?

SPEAKER_02 39:04

You have to pee?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

No, you can get me another beer. For some reason, I brought two and I have three. So if you uh once you go pee, could kindly grab me a beer, that'd be great.

unknown 39:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

And we're back.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

And we're back. Uh, how are you liking your beer?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Um, it's heavy. It's a little heavy. Um I think one, maybe two is probably enough for me. Well, it's good. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

It's 5.2, so it's not nothing crazy too alcohol-wise, but I I get it. Yeah, I can see that for you. I mean, especially with your your your go-to's Modello.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

But I don't want to say I still like it. Like it's still good.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

No, I know. I I don't want to say Modello's light, but it's lighter than that. Yeah. So yeah. Well, I'm glad you like it.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Okay, so after years of pushing, often without much attention, yeah, the story is being told again.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Which is great.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

What the fuck was what were you doing there?

SPEAKER_02 40:06

There's me blowing out my hit the microphone.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Okay. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Any who's so at this, sorry. Jesus Christ. Still burping.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

So at this time, the story doesn't stay in print. It reaches government. So labor ministers Andy Burnham and Maria Eagle take notice, and they have been begun calling for the release of all documents that had been missing for years. Okay. They began um releasing documents related to Hillsborough, everything that had been held back, everything that might help explain not just what happened that day, but what happened in years prior. So wait. Nope. Years after. What was held back? All the documents were not there and readily available.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Oh see, that's frustrating I want to say frustrating, infuriating.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

What the fuck? But we're getting inquiries from over here with documents, and inquiries over here with documents, and the Taylor report, and this inquiry, and and this accidental death conviction. There's documents after documents after documents.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Do you this might be something you never even came across, didn't hear, doesn't matter. You need a Q-tip.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Probably.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Um getting there nice and D black. Um Wow, thanks for derailing my question.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Documents. Documents from inquiry.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Q tip. Um shit. What was I just gonna ask? Sorry. That's all right. I shouldn't have looked up.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Um I shouldn't have looked at you.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Um fucking hell. All right, continue. Maybe it'll come back to me.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

That was a relevant question, too. I actually thought it was a pretty good question.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

So just days later, on April 15th, the anniversary to the day. Thousands gather for the 20th anniversary memorial service.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Where did they gather at the stadium or were they yes, I believe it was at the stadium.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

In a moment of embrace.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Two decades, so many questions here hanging in the air. Andy Burnham, one of the labor ministers, yes, stands to speak. Oh, representing the government, delivering what was meant to be a formal address. Okay. But as he begins, the crowd starts chanting, quote, justice for the 96. Justice for the 96.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

I'm with him. Yeah. Fuck, I would have done that. I would have been 29 and a half.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

His stand starts in one section and then it spreads and it grows louder and more unified, and it just takes over the moment entirely. And Burnham just can't continue, which is okay. Which is a good thing. It's a good thing. Yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Um, because the call for full full disclosure, the release of the documents, the opening of the record is no longer just coming from these families. It is being taken up by the government, and now it's being backed by the Prime Minister Gordon Brown's administration, uh, turning something that had one bis been dismissed into something that now has momentum behind it.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Okay.

Half A Million Documents Released

SPEAKER_02 43:46

So by 2012.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Jesus Christ, the you that's the year the bill was supposed to end.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

More than two decades have passed. And in September, the Hillsboro Independent Panel. Releases its report, the result of reviewing over, oh, guess how many documents? Go ahead and guess.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

17,000.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Much higher.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Seriously? Oh, yeah. I was gonna say 1700, I'm gonna go ridiculous. And it was higher than 17,000?

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Much higher.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

What's the number?

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Almost half a million documents.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Holy fuck.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

450,000 documents.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

I would have never got that fucking number. Holy crap. That is a lot of fucking documents.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

That's insane.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

That's gonna take a decade to go through.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Well, I mean, they've already waited 23 years. What's another fucking 10?

SPEAKER_02 44:46

And in these documents, there are still material that has never been fully examined before.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

That is bullshit. Complete fucking bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

If they did it right the first time, there would not be 450,000 documents, but maybe 7,500 documents.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

But the problem is you had people who are saving their own ass. Yeah. They read they fucking altered fucking statements to save their own ass. And that's horse shit.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

450,000 documents is not 450,000 pages. It's 450,000 documents.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Which could be multiple fucking pages. Totally crazy. It's not like it's each one is a paragraph. No. No. Jesus Christ. That's insane. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

So at the center of that work is Professor Phil Scranton, who has spent years documenting what the families had been saying since the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Good.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

That the story wasn't complete, that it hasn't been told honestly. And now they have confirmation that police failures were far more serious than they had publicly acknowledged. Confirmation that the response on the day had been inadequate. And perhaps most significantly, confirmation that the narrative blaming the fans have been actively shaped.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Clearly.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

For the families, including Trevor and Jenny Hicks, this is the moment they had been working towards for tw over 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

23 years.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

The sense that they had been saying all along is no longer being dismissed or minimized and is finally taken seriously. In Parliament, Prime Minister David Cameron issued a formal apology to the families, acknowledging that what happened at Hillsborough and the years after that was wrong. Not just the disaster itself, but the way it had been handled. The way the story had been allowed to settle in the wrong place.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Things happen. They're tragic. Yes. They're not good. We know that.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

This is not a perfect society. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Right. Things fucking happen.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

I could live with that. However, the fucking blatant fucking covering up and bullshit. And the blaming. And the the the fucking slandering of the fans. Oh, they were just a bunch of drunken fucking idiots is basically what they were saying. Yeah. That is horseshit. Yeah. Now, obviously, would we ro let rather have those 96 people alive? Yeah. Because we're in fucking 2012, 23 years later. The youngest of the family we're focusing on, the Hicks family, would be 30 fucking eight. Could have a family, could have multiple kids of her own.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

And the youngest kid that was a victim was 10. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Fucking 33 at this point. Yeah. Because of all because of some negligence from some stupid fucks. And that is horrible, terrible, shitty fucking circumstance. Yeah. But even with that being said, the lying about it is I'm not gonna say way worse, because losing your kids. Yeah. Again, fucking tragic. I couldn't fathom that. But holy fuck. About fucking time so much. But again, 23 years later, what's the prime minister's name?

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Uh David Cameron.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Why don't I remember him? Anyways. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

I know I remembered a couple of them, but not all of the prime ministers.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Yeah, I'm just saying, but I also don't. I actively don't follow politics because all it does is cause arguments and fucking anger. But um great, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Thank you for the words.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

And and now you can't blame David Cameron because he wasn't in the case.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

He's speaking on behalf of other negligent, stupid people. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

So obviously, I'm not focus, I'm not focusing David this against David Cameron. But it's like, cool. I don't know, maybe if these police force would have done their job, I'd have my daughters. But okay, cool. But again, not against David Cameron. However, what is it, what does this do for me? But at least it's fucking being acknowledged. It's being acknowledged.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

That is a huge fucking And it's it's being out, it's put being put out there in the world.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Which it needs to be because there's there's and again it's not a private apology to be like, oh, sorry this happened to you, but don't tell anyone we're sorry. My bad.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yeah. And not that it doesn't bring your kids back. Does it bring another 94 people back, obviously, too. Anything like that. But I would imagine. Luckily, I've never had to go through anything like this. Thank God. It's gotta mean something though. Finally getting that acknowledgement, even from someone who had nothing to fucking do with it.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

He's just in a powerful position, so he's like he he he took the responsibility to make this happen.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Good on David Cameron for doing that. Because he had nothing to do with it, obviously. However, um, that's gotta that's gotta feel good to some degree. Again, it's never gonna bring your kids back, it's never gonna bring so much comfort that, like, yeah, I lost my kids, whatever. Obviously not, right? But um it's it's nice that it's acknowledged, yeah, is all I'm trying to say in a long-winded fucking way.

Inquests Reopened And Unlawful Killing

SPEAKER_02 51:01

So, home secretary Teresa May accepts the findings and orders a new criminal investigation, and they call it Operation Operation Resolve.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Good.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

And they're tasked with re-examining the de disaster from the ground up.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

So at the same time, the Independent Police Complaints Commission launches its own investigation into how the case had been handled after the fact, including the conduct of officers and the handling of evidence.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

After years of doors closing, one after another, they finally begin to reopen. And then just a few min moments, excuse me, a few months later, a piece falls into place. In December, the original inquest verdict, accidental death, was squashed by the high court.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Good.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Lord Chief Justice Igor Judge, because of course his last name is Judge.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

No, you're you're skipping over the best part. His name is fucking Igor. Yeah. Igor Judge. Igor Judge to the fucking Igor. That is so fucking great. I love that name. So, um Oh, Jesus Christ, that is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Igor Judge, along with two other judges, finds that the inquest had not been properly conducted.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Clearly.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

Which means everything built on it no longer stands. Good. Which means the official record that had defined the disaster for over 20 years is set aside. And with it, the limitation that shaped the story, the 315 cutoff time.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

That is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

The restricted evidence, the narrow conclusions, they're no longer fixed in place.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Good. Fuck that. On March Go Igor. Go, Igor.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

You're my fucking boy now, dog. On March 31st, 2014. Jesus Christ. New inquests begin in Birchwood, Warrington. They are detailed, they are methodical, and they are expansive. Evidence is revisited and testimony is heard again. Decisions made on the day are examined in full without the restriction that had shaped the earlier process.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

Like the 315 cutoff.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Which was still just fucking wild. Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

That that was like the point of no return or whatever. Yeah. So what wait, what? No. So the inquest stretch on for more than two years, again, becoming the longest case ever heard by a jury really in British history. Holy shit. It lasted two years. For the families. Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Two fucking years. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

So for the families like Trevor and Jenny Hicks, they are finally being heard.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Every detail matters now. The decisions at the turnstiles, the opening of the gate, the flow of people into the central pens, the response on the pitch, the timing of the medical care, the actions that were taken, and the ones that were not. Nothing is off limits now. Yes, Bradley.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Is Duckenfield still alive? Yes. Good.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Slowly over these two years, a fuller picture finally begins to emerge. That on April 16th, or sorry, April of 2016, that process reaches its conclusion and the jury delivers its verdict. Which is they were asked 14 questions.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Oh, do you have the questions?

SPEAKER_02 54:42

I do not.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Okay. Each one would be important.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

It's not. The important part is like the last one, probably. I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

Each one, each of those 14 questions were designed to break down the disaster into more component parts to examine responsibility, not as a single moment, but more of a series of moments and decisions and conditions that came together. Okay. The 96 people who died at Hillsborough are found to have been unlawfully killed. Not accidentally, not inevitably, unawfully. Nope. Unlawfully killed. Unawfully. Wow, that was unawful.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

That is our title.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

I don't want to put killed in the title.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

No, it's just gonna be unawfully.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

So the verdict places responsibility in part on the actions of who?

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Duckinfield.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

David Duckinfield.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Fuck that guy. David, so if you're still around, fuck you. Yeah. Seriously, you fucked this shit up.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

He ignored, nope, he identified as gross negligence in a way that the situation was handled that day.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

It is really gross. You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

It's also recognized that what happened was not the result of a single failure, but a series of them.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Quote errors. Wow. Errors. That was Eurotrip coming through. Bringing it back fucking twice. Errors and emissions.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Actually, I think our title should be gross negligence.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

So errors and emissions by the police operation contributed to the disaster. Failures by the South Yorkshire Ambulance Service also played a role.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Because again, only fucking one made it in and one made it out. Yes. If you will. Ah, that's so awful. I mean, how I mean, luckily or unluckily, it doesn't matter because she died. The Hicks were on it. Well, one of them was. The well, two of them were, but Vicky Hicks was the only one taken by ambulance. Yeah, because Sarah was still on the pitch or whatever, but I mean it didn't matter. She still ended up passing, so I was like, well, okay. And by the way, I just like to give a personal negative shout out to that fucking nurse.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

Yeah, that nurse was awful. I don't have her name, and that's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

That's probably a good thing because she probably feels guilty already. She's fucking better. Okay. Anyways, all right.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

So the stadium itself, its design, its layout, its lack of valid safety certificate, which they did not have.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Seriously?

SPEAKER_02 57:35

They did not have a valid safety certificate, which apparently is the thing that they need over there.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Okay. If that's the thing they need and they don't have it.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Girl's negligence.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

What the fuck? Why was this ever even a fucking question?

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Even the preparation of the match by Sheffield Wednesday football club, whose home stadium is Hillsboro.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Sheffield Wednesday.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

Sheffield Wednesday is the football club.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

That's so weird.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

I don't know. But it's the home stadium.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Is there a Sheffield Thursday? I don't, I don't know, Bradley. Sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

I questioned Wednesday as well, but I didn't question it enough to look it up.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

But it is the home stadium of Hillsboro. It is also the the preparation of the match by that football club is also considered within that chain of events. And then most significantly, the jury addresses something that has hung in the air for fucking decades. They find no behavior on the pound on the part of Liverpool fans or supporters contributed to the situation. No late arrivals, no disorder, no blame, no drunken hooliganism. It was not the fans' fault.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Now, did some probably have some beers prior?

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

We've tailgated. Oh, for sure. I've tailgated my whole fucking life going to Packers games, Brewers games.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

I'm sure I would tailgate with my parents if I still lived nearby.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Yeah. Heck yeah. And were their beers probably had? Yes. That doesn't mean you can't instantly go, they're all fucking drunks, they're all drunkards, and they didn't they don't know what they're doing there. It's on them. Yeah. I don't know why I'm doing this voice.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

But what the fuck? But after more than 20 years of accusation and implication of the from the freaking son, the supporters are fully and formally exonerated. And for the families, this is the moment where everything they have been saying is finally recognized in the official record.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 59:47

Burping burping burpin.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Maybe that's the title. All right. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

By excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Jesus Christ.

Trials, Retrials, And Not Guilty

SPEAKER_02 59:57

By 2017, because of course we're still going. God damn. The momentum the head building started to translate into criminal charges now.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Good. Duckinfield, Duckinfield, Duckinfield, Duckinfield, Duck and Field.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Yes. Yes! In June of 2017.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Following of years of work under that operation operation resolve.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Give me some good news.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

The Crown Prosecute Kate is not a wordsmith. The Crown Prosecution Service. There it is. There it is. Announced that David Duckenfield, the officer in command on the day of disaster, will be charged with manslaughter by gross negligence. Of course. It's okay. Like I feel like it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Does he not have to serve time because of it? It's so long ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

The charge relates to 95 of the 96 victims that died that day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Who's the one that they didn't fucking give?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

They cannot include Tony Bland, who was the 96th victim because he died several years later. Oh. In 1993, after being in a persistent vegetative state since the disaster.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Okay, fuck off. That is horseshit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

The gap between the event and the death places it outside the legal framework for the charge.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Okay, I get it, but clearly that's why he fucking died. He was in a vegetative state since fucking 1989, dies four years later because he's been in a vegetative state since 1989. But clearly we can't charge him with that one. Yeah. Okay, so 95 counts. What did he get?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

So let me continue.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

At the same time, attention is also on Graham Mackerel, the Sheffield Wednesday Club Secretary and Safety Officer is also charged this time under safety safety re safety legislation relating to the way the stadium had been managed and prepared.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

So it reflects something, um, it reflects something the 2016 inquest had already made clear.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

That what happened at Hillsborough wasn't the fault of a single failure, but a series of them. Multiple failures, yes. Later that same year, another piece of story shifts, this time not focused on what happened in 1989, but what happened afterward.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

In November, Bishop James Jones published a report commissioned by the home secretary Teresa May. It's not about assigning blame, it's about how the families were treated in the years that followed, right? And how the system responded to them when they were at their most vulnerable. Sure. What it lays out is uh the report sets out 25 quote points of learning.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Points of learning.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

Recommendations designed to prevent something like this from happening again. Not just the tragedy, but also the response. Sure. So among them is a concept that becomes central to everything that follows. It is called a duty of candor.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

It's a lot of good movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Right? Duty of Candor out this June.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

That public authorities, including the police, should be react required to act openly and honestly after major events. What what?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

Why does that even need to be said? Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

What a novel idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Duty of Candor. Alright, new fucking title. Because they just keep coming, apparently, lately. Why? Why? Why? I'll go down deep like you did. Why? Does that need to even fucking be said? Isn't that what it should fucking be? I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

For the love of God. So public authorities, including the police, should be required to act openly and honestly after major incidents.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Or just every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

That they should assist investigations fully rather than control the shape of the narrative. That the burden of uncovering the truth should not fall on those who have already lost the most. This is like common sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

But the problem is the problem is you get people, especially in places of power, police, judges, name your elevated position here. And they're just out to save their own ass. Because they have the means to, they can sh they can shut down shit, they can change narratives, they can do this. That's literally like the world we're living in. Like, I think we need a fucking duty of candor for the whole fucking world right now. Because I don't know. Basically, you boil it down, and this is Bradley's interpretation. Don't be a dick. Be truthful. Yeah. But the world we live in right now, not so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

Not so much. By 2019.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

Oh my goodness. 30 fucking years later.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

The story has come full circle. Thirty years after the Hillsborough disaster, the question of criminal responsibility is finally in the courtroom.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

I feel like it needs 360 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

In January 2019. I know that's why I keep continuing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

No, you just didn't get it, is why.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Oh fuck you. Did you get it? I don't hear I didn't hear you. In January 2019.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

I can repeat it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:18

The trial begins at Preston Crown Court.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

Where is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Miss Preston. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:28

Christ. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

David Duckinfield. Fuck that guy. Now 75 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Doesn't matter, he's still a dick.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Stands in the dock alongside Graham Mackerel, both pleading not guilty.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Of course they're gonna plead not guilty.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

In opening the prosecution's case, the argument is fairly fucking direct. Duckenfield's responsibility, they say, comes from his role as match commander, the decisions he made, and the failures, and how he managed the situation as it unfolded.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

It is framed not as a single mistake, but as a failure of duty, a breakdown in responsibility at the highest level on that day.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

Of course, the defense argues.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Of course it well, I mean, that's why they're there.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

That's part of their job.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

You gotta let them do that. There's like it's like it's like saying, Why do you defend like criminals? Well, because there's that's their job.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

I mean, it's weird if you think about it, but it's their job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

So the defense argues that Duckinfield is being singled out. He was in charge. That what happened cannot be reduced to one person, one decision, one point of failure.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

However, top down.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

The disaster was more complex, and in many ways, both arguments reflect something the families have known all along. Hillsbury was never just about one failure.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Multiple.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

But it doesn't mean that responsibility should disappear. No. As the trial unfolds, the weight of those decades hangs on everything, and the time that has passed, the evidence that has been revisited, the memories that had been created forward has been for 30 years. And when the case goes to jury, there is a sense that this moment might finally clear the ear, the air, air, the ear. But it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

Are you in eight days? Nope. In April, after eight days of deliberation, the jury was unable to reach a verdict on Duckinfield's charge. There is no resolution. However, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

Yeah, continue.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

Sorry, Graham Mackerel is found guilty of breaching his legal duty regarding safety at the stadium, specifically in relation to the allocation of turnstiles. It is a conviction, one that acknowledges failure. However, but comes with a penalty that feels to me very small in comparison of what actually happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

How old is Graham at this time?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

I did not look it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

However, he was only slapped with a fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Because, you know, 96 people's lives.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

So I did what was the fine? I did not do research on the conversion from 2019 to 2026.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

Is it in pounds?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

But I did do the conversion from pounds to dollars for 2009.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

6,500 pounds. Which is 800 or 8,600 in dollars. That was his fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

You know what?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

96 people died because of his failure to actually have a safe stadium. Do his job as safety person, whatever his title was. And you just all you were charged was$8,000.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

Let me write you a check.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

I wish I had$8,000 to write a check with.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

For Doc and Field, the question remains open, but so the case continues. In June, it is confirmed that there will be a retrial. The process begins again in October. I'm not sure what the English reason of a retrial is.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Um, but this time with additional efforts to ensure that the families and survivors can be present. Proceeds relay to Liverpool, allowing these most affected to witness what is happening without having to travel. So this last one took place in like Wittenfield or whatever. Now it's being taken place in Liverpool. So people can actually get there. The Beatles. Supposedly. I didn't do the route or whatever. That's fine. So Jesus Christ. Even with that, the outcome does not change.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

In November, after days of deliber deliberation, the jury returns its verdict, not guilty.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

On Duckinville?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Yeah. And just like other people, but here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

I'm sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

They came across not guilty. Okay, fine. But everyone can clearly see. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:39

I mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

Right? I mean, fucking Graham.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

In hindsight, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Okay. Oliver, your pause are cute.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

So by this point, so much has already been established. The inquests have ruled unlawful killing. The supporters have been fully exonerated. The failures of police, emergency response, and stadium safety have been laid out in detail. The truth in many ways has already been found. Sure. But the courtroom operates differently. Yeah. It requires a different threshold, a standard of proof. Of course. And meeting that standard after 30 years, after evidence that has been shaped, challenged, and revisited is something that still proves difficult, perhaps impossible.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

So the story ends in a place that feels both resolved and unresolved.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

Yeah, it's it's like in a state of limbo.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:37

In May.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

May have 2021.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

Oh my god, pee again. In May, yeah, in May 2021, because that's where we are again. Attention turns once again to the question of accountability after the fact. Three men, two former South Yorkshire police officers and the forces solicitor at the time stand trial on charges of perverting the course of public justice. The case centers on the alteration of officers' statements, something that had become one of the clearest indicators that the narrative have been shaped in the aftermath. No, for sure. But before the case can reach a conclusion, it is stopped by the judge.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

Insufficient evidence to allow the case to go to the jury. The trial ends without a verdict, and all three men are acquitted.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

So being so much I mean, we're in 2021 or 2021. Um I mean, so many years have passed. It it's hard with that much distance between points to like now if this happened 30 fucking years ago, right? Maybe we're onto something.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

Because that would have been, you know, 1991, two years after the incident. So unfortunately, I I get it. It sucks. But like, what are you supposed to do with 30 plus years fucking between what happened?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

It's that's but then the Taylor report, the Taylor inquiry that happened just January of 1990.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

Yeah, yeah, not even a year later.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Like had all the evidence out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

Well, did they?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

Maybe not the police side of things, but whatever. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

Do you know what who should have also gotten sued or or tried or whatever? Is the fucking son.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

Oh, I know. For serious fucking sly uh slander. Slander. I was gonna say slibel.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

Slibal. Slander and like I hate being fucking slibeled.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

So just days later, another development takes shape. Okay. South Yorkshire police, along with West Midlands police, agrees to a statement with more, excuse me, agrees to a settlement with more than 600 people, families and survivors, acknowledging the harm caused by the way the disaster had been handled forward. Not just the event itself, but the campaign that followed it. The false narratives, the attempt to shift blame, the emotional and psychological toll of having to fight for years against a version of revents events that did not reflect reality. Yep. Compensation is offered for trauma, for psychiatric damage, for the long-term impact of what the families have been described as a cover-up.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Okay. It was a cover-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

So that happened. And then in July, something happens that changes the story again.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

Oh, for fuck's sake. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

This one is sad. Oh. The coroner rules that Andrew Devine, who had lived more than 30 years with the effects of catastrophic brain injuries sustained in the crash. Nope, crush, excuse me, sustained in the crush, died as a direct result of those injuries. Thirty years after the initial injury, he finally dies. And they say that it is because of the Hillsborough disaster. He makes the 97th victim.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

Jesus Christ. That is sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:42

By 2023.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:44

Jesus Christ, three fucking years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

The government formally responds to the report written by Bishop James Jones years earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

James Jones used to be a wide receiver for the Packers.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:55

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

Not that same James Jones.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Jim Jones is a cult leader who killed a bunch of people with Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

I love Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Bishop James Jones, years later, a report had been laid out, lessons not just about Hillsborough. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

I like how I use the literal same name, and you're like, oh, Jim Jones. I mean, it was his real name Jim James? I mean probably. Then you should have said that. But anyways, continue.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:23

Everybody knows him as Jim.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:24

Nobody fucking cares what that psychopath did.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:27

So anyways, continue.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

The report had laid out lessons not just about Hillsborough, but about how institutions should respond to tragedy in general. Sure. Ministers issue apologies for the delay, acknowledging that it has taken far too long to address those recommendations, and they agree to adopt the charter. They accept the idea that of a duty of Candor, an expectation that police and public authorities should act openly and honestly in the aftermath of major events. The government declines to introduce what has become known as Hillsborough Law, a proposal that would make the duty of Candor a legal requirement and ensure that bereaved families have equal access to legal resour resources when facing public authorities. In other words, the principle is accepted, but the enforcement is not. For Trevor and Jenny Hicks, and for the families who have carried this forward for more than three decades, that complexity is part of the reality that they have lived for this long.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

34 fucking years.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:43

Hillsboro was never just about a single day, but it was about everything that also happened since.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

Well, it it yeah. It started with the day, obviously, but it's everything those families and friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:57

Honestly, it started with the build of the Hillsboro stadium. Well, yeah, technically. And its safety regulations.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

And fucking Graham, that piece of shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:09

By 2025.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

God damn.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

More than three decades after the Hillsborough disaster, in September, the government introduces finally Hillsborough law.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:23

Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

This time it's brought into Parliament as legislation under Prime Minister Keir Starmer's Labor Government. I'm sorry I don't know who that person is, but that's or how it's pronounced.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

The current Prime Minister Yeah, yeah, I just don't know how to pronounce the next one.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:39

No, that's okay. The proposal establishes a statutory duty for police officers, public officials, and authorities to act with candor, transparency, and frankness in the aftermath of major incidents.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

So is it candor or is it candor?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

I like candor. Because I think it's candor. No, it's candor. I'm pretty sure it sounds like Gondor.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

I think of Endor. It's con no, it's it's Kandor. From Return of the Jedi?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:08

No, it's Gondor from Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

We're going to the duty of Kandor.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:13

Duty of Kandor. It's not Kant, whatever you say.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:15

That is not right. That's literally the name.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:18

It's not right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

It's not Candor. It's Kandor. Can can we after this episode concludes, confirm that?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:25

No. No, it's Kandor.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:27

I'm the one who wrote it. It's Kandor.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:29

So that's what makes me nervous.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

In simple terms.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

Candor.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:34

No. It aims to ensure that what happened after Hillsborough, altered statements, withheld information, da da la da da cannot happen in the same way ever again.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:45

But even there, the sinew the story continues to unfold. Because introducing a law is one thing, what follows is just as important. And that becomes clear in December of 2025. Four months ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:58

That's well, no, five.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

Five months ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

Well, depending on the date, but yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

The Independent Office for Poly Poly Police.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

For poly police?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:10

The Independent Office for Police Conduct releases the finding of its long-running investigation into both the disaster itself and what happened afterwards. Not just the decisions made on the day, but handling of the evidence, the conduct of officers, and the broader institutional response in the years that followed.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

A final piece of the puzzle. A formal examination of the aftermath. The same aftermath that the families have been questioning for decades.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

And its publication serves as a reminder of something that has been true throughout the entire fucking story. The Hillsboro event was never about a single event. It was about how it was understood, how it was recorded, how it was challenged, how it was shaped, how it was controlled, how it how it was denied. No more than 35 years later, those layers are still being uncovered. 36. Still, whatever. Still being examined, still being turned into lessons that might shape what happens next. And we're we're in 2026 now, and it's never, it's not final yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

It's fucking wild that it's taken this long and it's still not fucking done.

Trevor And Jenny’s Legacy

SPEAKER_02 1:22:33

Let me end on this.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:35

Trevor Hicks was the chairman and later president of the Hillsborough Family Support Group. Good. He was one of the most visible voices representing the families through decades of legal battles, inquiries, and public scrutiny.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Go on, did he pants?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:54

No. Oh, thank God. Trevor fought.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:56

I thought that's where you're fucking going on with.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:58

No. Trevor fought for justice for his daughters, Sarah and Victoria, and the other victims for three decades. He has continued to speak publicly about Hillsboro, helping to shape reforms and ensure what happens has not been forgotten. He lives in Sheffield and remains involved in community and advocacy work connected to the legacy of Hillsboro. Jenny Hicks was the vice president and the longest-serving committee member of the Hillsborough Family Support Group. The group ceased to exist as of January 1st, 2021. She fought for justice for her daughters and the other 95 victims for over three decades. Jenny wrote the book One Day in April, Hillsboro, and Mother's Story in 2022, 2022.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

And that is where I got most of my information.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:52

She lives in Liverpool and volunteers as a school governor for young people who have been excluded from mainstream education. And that is the story of the Hillsboro disaster of 1989 and its aftermath.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:07

I I I know we have a limited audience, and I love it if people even made it this far in our episode. We do this because we like it. And the stories like this are fucking tragic, depressing, but also inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

And yeah, and they need to be shared.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

And they need to be shared. And so I give a huge shout out to Trevor and to Jenny, who will never hear this, and that's okay. You hear this, and it's this is what we do. It's for you and me, honestly. Good on them. Uh losing your kids so young. I mean, they're 15 and 19, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:48

And they kept fighting for for them. And for the other not just for their kids, but for everyone who lost their life that day.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:56

Everyone was just as important.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:59

And they were. And obviously their kids were more important to them. However, everyone was equally as important that lost their life that day because of some bullshit and the fact that they have basically had to wait this long and it's still technically ongoing. People know though.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:22

Oh, we know.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:23

You know, yeah, you might not get a conviction on fucking duck and field douchebag or whatever, but people know. And it sucks not to have that hard ending with a conviction.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:39

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:40

Yeah. But good on Trevor. Good on Jenny. Uh sorry for your loss. Again, I know they're never gonna hear this, and that's okay, but man, that's gonna that's gotta be fucking tough. And good on them for the as people. Fight in the good fight. Yeah. Because, you know, things like this inspire change and other things, which we need, and especially in the fucking world we live in, that's fucking on fire.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:06

Literally. I sent you a picture of a car on fire yesterday or two days ago, whatever. But um it's just fucking wild. Seriously, it's just sad that they had to go through such a tragic, tragic fucking thing, and then relive it over and relive it literally literally for the last 37 fucking years. I mean, we're uh today is the third, we're 12 days from the 37th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster, and it's sad that well, when this comes out, it'll come out on the 14th. Oh shit, yeah. This will come out the the day before. So that that's fucking fitting. The day before. So um the anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:50

What year? Uh 1989.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:53

37 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:55

So one day before, yeah. 37 year anniversary.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:59

Cheers to Trevor, cheers to Jenny.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:02

Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

I I I finished all my beers.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:05

Um, did you like them?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:07

They were delicious.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

Mine is also delish.

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SPEAKER_00 1:27:09

Okay, good. I'm glad you like it. Um, and obviously, not just uh Trevor and Jenny, but everyone who lost a friend, a family member, what doesn't matter? Anyone who lost anyone in the Hillsborough disaster, fucking tragic, and cheers on you for uh being strong and getting through it. So Welp. I suppose. All right, buffoons, that's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:33

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Hit us up on social media where History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at History Buffoons Podcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:59

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SPEAKER_00 1:28:04

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:07

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