Dino-Mite: The Bone Wars

100th Episode Cheers And Teaser

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Oh hey there. Oh hey there.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Oh hey there. I'm Kate. I'm Bradley.

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And this is the History Puffoon. Sound like That's what I was trying to go for.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Well, that's what I said. That's why it sounded like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Well, then I did a good job.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

How are you today, Kate?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I'm doing pretty well. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:39

I am well. We're uh sitting in the podloft. Just knocked my microphone. Microfo.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Guess what episode this is?

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This would be episode 100.

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Boom!

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So let's crack a beer to cheers to 100.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Crack a beer of our favorite beers.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yeah, we're going with uh we're going with the classics today. Nothing fancy, nothing special, but delish nonetheless. Banquet, it's only made with Rocky Moon water. Can't get it anywhere else made anywhere else, I should say. You can get it everywhere. Delicious. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Cheers. Happy 100th episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Happy 100th episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

We are not oh gosh damn. I keep hitting the microphone. Don't do that. This does not count the origin of weird episodes. This is just more full-length episodes.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

We count we count them a little separate. It's all the same podcasts, but we count them kind of separately. Yeah. So uh this would be episode 141 if we counted them together.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

But um but no, we we we kind of separate them to a degree because Origin of Weird is just you know our little short form partner to our long form uh history.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So well, before we get into too much, I want to tell you

What The Bone Wars Really Were

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a little bit about what we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Have you ever heard of the Bone Wars?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

The Bone Wars. No, I have not. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

It it doesn't have death the way you think it does.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Okay.

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It's about two men with gigantic egos.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Of course.

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Who are hunting dinosaur fossils.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Oh, sure. Yeah. You know, they're already dead. Yeah. And it's like, I can find this bone better than you, faster than you. Whatever the word. Insert correct word there. Yeah. Than you. Yeah, okay, so okay. Already dead. Let's look for bones.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

And we're we got egos to go with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Naturally.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

That's what history is all about is overly sized fucking egos of people who think I am better than the next person.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Typically. I mean, that's what a lot of wars are going on.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I feel like we need a shot.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Fuck, I wish we had one.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

I know. Damn.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

If only we had that South Dakota whiskey you got. That was good.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

I left at home.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah. I I enjoyed uh trying that. So thank you for that. That's okay. Like you said, you left it at home. We are currently in the the pod loft. Um happy Independence Day.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yep, it is also July 4th.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yeah, we are recording this on the 4th of July, 250 years to America. Here's uh 250 more.

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250 and our 100th. So just imagine I already am spending weeks digging through the blistering heat of the American West. I'm out. You're covered in dirt, sweat running into your eyes that happens to you already and on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Oh my god, when I'm working.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Um, every shovel full of earth brings you closer to something that nobody has seen in millions of years. And then it happens. A bone emerges from the ground.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yes.

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Not just any bone, but part of a dinosaur, unlike anything ever discovered before. The kind of fossil that could make a career. It could fill museum halls and change what humanity knows about prehistoric life.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Right.

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Most scientists would carefully excavate it, pack it into crates.

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But this guy's like get this fucker out of here.

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Well, instead, some men reached for the dynamite. Some crews intentionally damaged fossils, bury reburied sites, and in some cases used dynamite to destroy specimens that they couldn't recover simply bec to keep them out of their rivals' hands.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

So is it dynomite?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Ha ha. I just I just licked my microphone.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

No, I have to sanitize that. Krouse.

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It's dynamite.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Oh, that's pretty easy. That didn't even cross your mind, did it?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

It really did not.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Oh man.

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So it might sound completely insane, but it happened during one of the strangest rival rivalries in scientific history.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Is this in the 1800s?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

It is.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah.

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It was a feud so bitter that it involved bribery, spying, public humiliation, sabotage, stolen discoveries, and pettiness.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Wow. This sounds epic.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

And this is the Bone Wars.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Is this like 1830s?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Um, later than that. It's the late 1800s.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Oh, later 1800s.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

And in fact, I meant to look up one question that I had for myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

I'm gonna look it up right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Because for some reason. Okay, I don't know exactly what you're gonna talk about here. I had a feeling, especially with when um dinosaur bones were discovered or whatever. I thought it was the 1830s, but I mean it still could be true. It might just be these people might be looking for it afterwards, but I didn't know it was late 1800s.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So I want to bring in Mary Anning.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Of course, who we did an episode on.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yes, I don't remember what episode it was.

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It was called Mary's Comet.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

It was called Mary's Comet. I believe it was like within the first couple of episodes.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

It was pretty early on in our uh episode 11.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, episode 11. So Mary Anning was in England and she found a lot of fossils, Ichthyosaurus. Yes, and that was in the mid-1800s.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Maybe that's why I'm kind of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Um she was it was between like 1823, 1830-ish.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Okay, maybe the maybe that's what's going through my brain then. But this is obviously the states.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

This is the states, you know. So um at first glance, like we're you think we're talking about dinosaurs. Yeah, dinosaurs plays a plays a little role, but this is just entirely about these about two men. Right. Um they are two brilliant scientists with massive egos, and they became so obsessed with defeating each other that they nearly destroyed the science that they claim to love.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

So uh, that's the beauty of people. They really know how to fuck

Two Paleontologists Built To Clash

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shit up.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Fuck their own shit up. Well, that too. Yeah. So the first gentleman was Edward Drinker Cope.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Drinker?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Like that boy's a drinker? Yep. Edward Drinker Cope. Do you think that's why his middle name was that? I don't know. That's an odd middle name.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

It is. Okay. And he was born into a wealthy Quaker family. And unlike many scientists of this era, he didn't spend his early years worrying about money.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Or trying to secure a position at a university.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah.

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His family's wealth gave him freedom that he used to pursue an obsession with natural history.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

All right.

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He was a genuine prodigy. By the age of 18, he had already published scientific papers and was earning a reputation as one of the brightest young minds in American science.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Wow, I wish I could say I did that.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

His bring brilliance did come with some baggage. Oh, always does. Cope was impulsive, competitive, and notoriously hot-tempered.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

You don't say.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

He moved quickly, thought quickly, and published discoveries at a pace that left his colleagues kind of stunned.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Now, did he publish them properly? Like they were stunned, but like, did he do the right work and everything? No. So he just like, looks good to me. Yeah. Print it.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

That seems like he didn't review his first draft. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

That seems not right.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

He was the kind of person who always believed that he could find the answer first.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

So he always rushed to get that answer first. Yes. Even if it was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

And it's not like go go to the internet and fact check me. Correct. Because, well, lo and behold, wait a hundred and some years. Right. So, okay. What a let's learn more before I say anything.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

So the second man was O thinyl. Othinyl? Othynol. Nope. Othneil. Oh man. Othneil.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Othneil. How do you spell that?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

O T H N I E L. Othneil.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Othneil.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Mm-hmm. Othneil Charles Marsh. So we got Marsh and we got Cope. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

I feel like Oth Neil is like, oh man, I'm I got an Othneel in my knee or something like something like weird, you know, medical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Othney. Yeah. Anyway. Marsh's story was um a little bit more different than um Cope. Um, he was born on a modest uh farm in rural New York and spent much of his early life far removed from the wealthy scientific circles that Cope took for granted.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

All right. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

If not for a stroke of luck, Marsh might have spent his entire life working the land. But luck came in the form of his uncle, George Peabody.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Peabody. It was a common name back then, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

So Peabody was one of the wealthiest men in America.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

And one of the most influential philanthropists of the 19th century. And his money changed everything for Marsh.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Uh Peabody paid for Marsh's education, funded his studies in Europe, and eventually established the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale, where Marsh became one of the country's leading paleontologists.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Is that uh still the museum is still there?

SPEAKER_01 11:35

I don't recall if it's named the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

So why did this Peabody take such a liking to Marsh and give him money?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Family? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

That's a part of my research. So unlike Cope, Marsh never felt, never forgot what it felt like to have nothing.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah.

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Where Culp Cope was in impulsive, Marsh was cautious. Where Cope rushed to publish, Marsh preferred to keep his discovery secret until he was absolutely certain. And where Cope wore his emotions openly, Marsh kept his cards close to the vest.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

So did he wear his emotions on his sleeves.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

On his sleeve.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

That's what I'm talking about.

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The two men approached science in completely different ways. And in hindsight, they almost seemed destined to become enemies, but they did start off as friends.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Oh, they did. So they actually knew each other from an earlier age? Yes. So how old were they when they met?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

So this we're fast forwarding to 1864.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

It's a good year.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

So around 24 years old, give or take. Okay. Um, both men found themselves studying in Berlin. And while the American Civil War raged back home, they spent their days exploring museums, discussing fossils, and building what appeared to be a genuine professional relations uh friendship. Okay. They respected each other so much that they even named newly discovered species after one another.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Really?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Cope honored Marsh by naming a fossil amphibian Anisopus Marshe. While Marsh returned the compliment by naming a marine reptile, Mosasaurus Copanus.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

So you're telling me basically all these names we got are bullshit because they just might have been named after somebody, not actually scientifically real.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Well, those two. I know. I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

It's just funny because like a lot of things were named honestly that way. Yeah. Because it's not like they would have known the name.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Like Tyrannosaurus Rex. Yeah. Someone gave it that name. Yeah. Obviously, no Stegosaurus was walking down the road one day and be like, oh, there's a T-Rex over there.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

So I mean, it's just weird how names come about for things that we have no fucking clue about. Right. And now that we've been calling it that for, well, whatever, 100 years, 150 years, whatever the fuck it's been. So, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah. So naming new species after each other was not a casual gesture. Scientific names can survive for centuries. Yeah. Meaning, ooh, I'm I I moved. Meaning each man was effective ensuring that the other's name would be permanently attached to the history of life on Earth. Right. So for a brief moment, it looked as though American paleontology had gained two talented allies. But tensions were beginning to form.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

So what caused these tensions?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Oh, let me tell you. Please do. That's why I asked. Cope saw Marsh as overly cautious and calculating.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

And he wanted him to be more just shoot from the hip kind of fucking guy. I mean, that seems stupid though.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Marsh saw Cope as reckless and undisciplined. One came from old money. One came from a modest family farm. One trusted his instincts, and the other trusted meticulous planning.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

So neither men were particularly good at sharing the spotlight. And all they needed was a spark. And that spark arrived

The Bribe That Broke Friendship

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in 1868 at a fossil site in Haddonfield, New Jersey.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Good old Haddonfield.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

So the relate the friendship between Cope and Marsh may have survived for their differences, their differences if it weren't for 1868.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Cope invited Marsh to visit one of the most important fossil sites in the country, the marl pits of Haddonfield, New Jersey. What are marl pits? Well, marl pits um were they actually dug in these marl pits for fertilizer. It's a type of fertilizer.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

So today Haddonfield is famous for being the location where the first reasonably complete dinosaur skeleton was discovered in North America. Okay. It was essentially like a gold mine for paleontologists. Sure. Okay. And because of all the digging for this fertilizer, they regularly stumbled across um all these discoveries, right? Yeah. So to Cope, this was an opportunity to show a colleague around one of his most productive hunting grounds. To Marsh, it was a business opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

I I wouldn't have guessed Marsh to be the business opportunity aspect. At least the connotation of it sounds not like it aligns with what he would do.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Okay, go on.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

So while visiting the site, Marsh quietly approached the pit operators behind Cope's back and offered them money.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

If they found any future fossils, they were to send them directly to Marsh at Yale instead of Cope in Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

For Marsh, it was simply securing access to valuable specimens. For Cope, it was betrayal.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, it was backstabbing.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

And that trust that existed before was suddenly gone.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

You don't say. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

From that point forward, their relationship became increasingly hostile, and before long, Cope found himself facing an embarrassment that would haunt him for the rest of his career.

Head On The Tail Humiliation

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Oh shit. In 1868, Cope received the remains of a strange marine reptile, unlike anything scientists have previously discovered.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

The animal would eventually become known as Elasomosaurus, and it is one of the most famous prehistoric creatures ever discovered at the time. Okay. The problem was that the skeleton wasn't neatly laid out in the ground waiting to be assembled. It arrived as a collection of disconnected bones, and Cope was eager to reconstruct the creature and publish his findings before anyone else could.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

And you didn't put it back together, right? You didn't. Imagine that. That was pretty much an easy one to pick.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Elosimosaurus possessed one feature that seemed almost unbelievable. His neck was absurdly long. Right. Modern animals simply don't look like that.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

The neck contained more vertebrae than anyone expected, creating a body plan that seemed completely backwards compared to most familiar creatures.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

So did he put it together wrong because of that?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

The neck, yeah. So think of a brontosaurus. Yeah. But instead of legs, it has fins.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

And then the tail is shorter.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So, working quickly, Cope assembled the skeleton and proudly published his reconstruction. There was just one problem. He put the head on the wrong end. He put it on the tail. He put it on the tail. Yeah. Looking at the pile of bones, Cope assumed the enormous series of vertebras represented a tail.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

I mean, I can understand, like you had said, that this isn't anything like we've ever seen. So obviously, you know, besides a giraffe, what has a really long neck on the planet? Right. Not a lot of things, honestly. So I can see, you know, tails are gonna typically be longer. Oh, excuse me. So I can see why he might have done that, but like again, this is why he's an idiot for just rushing to I gotta be the first. Who else fucking has this right now? Take take an extra five minutes, dude, and just think it through.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

So as a result, he attached the skull where the tail should have been and presented the creature to the scientific community with complete confidence. Unfortunately for him, Marsh noticed the mistake almost immediately. And rather than quietly men mentioning the error, Mark, Marsh made sure everyone knew about it. Oh boy. The disagreement became so heated that respected paleontologist of the time, Joseph Leedy, was eventually brought in to settle the matter.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Leedy served as like a neutral expert. When Cope and Marsh were arguing over the reconstruction, Leedy examined the skeleton and concluded that Marsh was correct. Cope had placed the skull on the tail rather than the neck. And what makes this a little bit more painful is that Leedy was one of the most respected scientists in America. He was actually a mentor to Cope. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

So Cope completely admired him. So with him siding with Marsh being correct, even though Cope was just wrong, he took that more as a slight because you even fucked up my relationship with my mentor kind of mentality.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yep, exactly. So the embarrassment for Cope was enormous.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I would say.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

So realizing the magnitude of the mistake, Cope desperately tried to recall copies of the scientific publication that contained the incorrect um reconstruction.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

So like you say it contained the incorrect reconstruction. Was it a drawing then that they released? Because it's I mean, there was photography at this point.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

There was photography, but I didn't look into what the publication said or anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Because I'm just curious as to like, you know, how how was it presented in this?

SPEAKER_01 21:17

I'm assuming it was photos, but you would think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

But all right.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

So he hoped to remove the eviden evidence before it spread throughout the scientific community. And of course, Marsh had other ideas.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

So he kept spreading it.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Knowing exactly what Cope was attempt attempting, Marsh made sure the mistake was widely known among the scientific community and referenced referenced it for years afterwards. So if Cope wanted the mistake forgotten, Marsh was determined to make sure it lived forever.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Seems that way.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Years later, Marsh would openly boast about the incident, writing that Cope's wounded pride had never recovered. Whether that was true or not, we don't know, but for from that moment. For forward, the rivalry the rivalry stopped being professional and it became personal.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

And it became ridiculous. Wow. Yes. Okay.

Fossil Rush Turns Into Sabotage

SPEAKER_01 22:09

So following the Civil War, railroads pushed deeper into the American West. Yep. Survey crews blasted through mountains, carved routes uh across the plains, and exposed rock formations that had been hidden for millions of years.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

To every new railroad cut seemed to reveal another trevor treasure trove of fossils.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

To paleontologists, this was like a gold rush. Yeah. Yeah. Because by by the time these discoveries began pouring out of the frontier, Cope and Marsh were no longer interested in simply finding fossils. They were interested in beating each other.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

And basically sabotaging each other, more or less. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yes, they were willing to do pretty much anything to win. So it's important to remember that these expeditions weren't taking place in some peaceful scientific playground.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

It was the American frontier during a period of enormous conflict and expansion. Right. Railroads, military expeditions, settlers, prospectors, native nations, and government survey teams were all competing for control of the same territory. Sure. So scientists often traveled alongside soldiers. Some negotiated directly with native leaders for access to fossil-rich regions. Others relied on military forts for protection and supplies. And the search for dinosaurs was deeply intertwined with a larger story of the Western expansion. Even the way Cope and March Marsh approached these expeditions reflected their personalities. His expeditions were well supplied, carefully organized, and often included teams of students and assistants.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

On one journey, he even hired William F. Cody Buffalo Bill as a guide. Did he really? Yeah, isn't that cool?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

That's weird.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Cope's expectations was far less polished. During one trip to Wyoming in 1872, he arrived expecting support from a government survey, only to discover the group had already departed with most of the available transportation and supplies. Rather than turning back, Cope improvised. He assembled whatever crew he could find, secure wagons where he could, and pushed forward west anyway. Oh boy. By this point, neither man was simply collecting fossils. They were racing uh racing each other across an entire continent.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Yeah, no kidding.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

So by the late 1870s, the rivalry have moved has moved far beyond scientific disagreements. At this point, Cope and Mar Marsh aren't trying to make discoveries anymore. They're just trying to beat each other to the discovery. So the moment that either man found something new, even if it was nothing more than a single tooth or a fragment of jawbone, the race began. Specimens were examined as quickly as possible. Brief descriptions were rushed into print, and new species names were announced before anyone had time to carefully verify the findings. The goal was not accuracy in this information, but priority.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

It was a timely thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Whoever published first received the credit.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

They didn't care about being correct. No. They just wanted to get it out first.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

So as a result, both men began naming species at a staggering pace. Fossils were described from incomplete remains. Animals were sometimes named multiple times because juvenile specimens were mistaken for an entirely different species. In other cases, fossils already described by one scientist received a brand new name from another. It was just scientific chaos.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So did a lot of these naming issues and such get corrected over time with other like actual legitimate scientists? Yes. Okay. And I say legitimate scientists not that they weren't, but clearly they abandoned being scientists. Yeah. Just for uh clout? No. Just to fuck the other one. Yeah. Not even clout. Yeah, that could probably came along with it if they published first, compared, you know, if Cope got something out before Marsh did or vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

But they clearly abandoned all fucking hopes of being actual scientists. Which is really sad because, you know, especially during this time, a lot to be had.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Oh yeah. Smorgus bored. Yeah. Smorgus borg.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yes. Or a smorgasbord. You know, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Is it board or borg?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

I thought it was Borg, but you said Borg first.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah, and then I said Borg.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Somebody correct us.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

When I think of Borg, I think of the next generation Star Trek because the Borg, we are Borg. That's what, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

So dozens of duplicate and invalid names flooded the scientific literature, creating a mess that future paleontologists would spend decades trying to untangle.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

The feud became so disruptive that editors of The American Naturalist, one of the country's leading scientific journals, eventually grew tired of the constant stream of over overlapping claims and personal attacks. Editors grew increasingly frustrated with the disputes, the criticisms, and complete the competing claims that accompany the rivalry.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Well, and maybe you get to this, maybe you don't, but at what point do these people be like, hey, if um anything comes across your desk from Copern Marsh, don't do anything with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like clearly they're there's they're not doing the work. Yeah. They're just skating by to try and beat one another, whether they knew that was the case or not. But it was like, hey, I got this new uh thing from Marsh, put it in the round receptacle over there.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Right. Well, I bring up the the journal again here in a moment. Right. For most scientists, that would have been at the end of the argument, but for Edward Cope, it was simply an obstacle. So in 1877, Cope acquired a controlling interest in the American Naturalists magazine or journal.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Giving him significant influence over one of the country's leading scientific journals. It was the 19th century equivalent of purchasing your own television network because you didn't like the coverage.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

How I know he came from older money, but is that how he got the interest in it? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

So with his new acquisition, uh Cope gained a platform where he could publish his discoveries and criticize his rivals without worrying about editorial interference.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

And of course, the rivalry was about to become even more absurd.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

In 1877, marked the point where the rivalry entered its most intense phase. That year, several discoveries in Colorado and Wyoming revealed something extraordinary. Scientists had been finding prehistoric mammals for years, but these sites contained something a little bit more spectacular. Entire graveyards filled with gigantic Jurassic animals, unlike anything previously discovered in North America. Right. Ironically, neither Cope nor Marsh made the initial discoveries. Of course. One of the most important finds came from Arthur Lakes, a school teacher and amateur geologist near Morrison, Colorado.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I know of Morrison, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

And while exploring local rock formation, uh Lakes noticed enormous fossil bones protruding from the hillside. Right. Unsure exactly what he had found, he collected specimens and contacted professional paleontologists for help. Unfortunately, he reached out to both Coke and Marsh.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

So how did he reach out to them? Like not anyone else? I mean, you can't tell me those were the only two.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I'm sure he reached out to a couple, but it just happened to be also those two.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Because they still have a name for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Well, at this point, because even though they're trying their darndest to tarnish their own fucking names, but all right.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

So the moment each man realized the other had been informed about the same fossil site, panic set in. Agents were dispatched across the West, exclusive agreements were negotiated, digging rights were secured, and before long both sides were employing tactics that looked remarkably similar to industrial espionage. Oh boy. Marsh in particular became obsessed with secrecy. He occasionally used coded telegrams and other secrecy measures to conceal discoveries from rivals.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Do you have any like uh examples of okay? Never mind. I'll just grab a beer.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Rival scientists were rarely mentioned by name, fossil sites received code words, shipping routes were disguised, information was compartmentalized so thoroughly that some workers barely even understood the larger operation that they were participating in.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah, they're basically in the dark about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Both camps regularly attempted to steal information from the other.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Good lord.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Workers were bribed, crews would switch sides, digging locations would be leaked. Both sides paid close attention to fossil shipments in transportation routes.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Some reports even describe rival crews engaging in fist fights and throwing rocks at one another while competing access for fossil rich hillsides.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

So do you find it odd that even their feud trickled down to the people that worked for him? Oh, yeah. I mean, holy fuck, what kind of pull do you have on the people that were? Hey man, I work for Marsh. I work for Cope. Fuck you. It's like If my company had a feud with a rival vending machine company, I'd be like, good for you. I'm gonna go do my shit. Yeah. I don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Well, they're also being bribed.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Which doesn't help because obviously Marsh is bribing Cope's people, and Cope is doing the same to Marsh's people, and they're flipping sides because ooh, I got an extra nickel today from Marsh. I'm gonna go work for this guy. Right. Or whatever fucking bullshit it was. But yeah, I mean, obviously they're being coerced into nefarious things. We'll just say that.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah. So because eventually women winning became more important than science itself, if Mars's crew uncovered fossils that they couldn't transport, they were sometimes ordered to destroy them.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Isn't that wild? Just think of how many fucking fossils were lost because of that. Yep. Like, just to not let someone else get them. You piece of shit. And just like, hey man, um, we don't have enough room on our cart, blow it up.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

So in some cases, fossils that could not be recovered were intentionally damaged, buried, or left vulnerable to destruction rather than risk falling into the rival's hands.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So can you describe what being left vulnerable to destruction means?

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Um no. I mean, left uncovered and I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Just got sunbleached? I mean, oh yeah, totally sunbleached. Got sunburned, didn't put on enough sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Later accounts also describe the use of explosives as certain sites. Dynamite. Um, eve eve excavation trenches were deliberately refilled. And when a quarry had been worked to exhaustion, explosives were occasionally used to collapse sections of the site, sure. Burying any remaining fossils beneath tons of rock and rubble.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

But see, like, why would you do that? Because then you know where those are. You would have to go dig them back up if they even survived the blast for that matter.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Do you remember the um discovery of Tutankhamons? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Where they had to re-bury it?

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah, they would re-bury it every day or something.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

It was in every season.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Oh, every season. I think it was either way.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yeah. Which okay. I get that. But they also weren't dynamiting the whole fucking thing and blowing shit up. Couldn't you have just, I don't know, hey, I'll pay you this amount of money, get some bullets, and sit here for the next six months or some shit.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Or they could take what they could and they can leave the leftovers, you know, for the other guys. Like, you can have my leftovers, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

And you could you could have literally used that as like a fucker kid. Yeah, yeah. Couldn't even find his own shit. He had to take my leftovers.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

What a piece of shit. Am I right? I don't know. I just seems weird to do it that way, but yeah, like I I know I remember that where they had to rebury the Tutan Common site and everything. But I almost understand that.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

This I don't.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

No.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

I don't know. Because it was the same people who went back every time for Tutankhamun. Yeah, it was. Anyways, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

So Cope and Marsh reflected the era in which they lived. It was the Gilded Age, uh, the age of monopolies. Um, industrial titans fought to dominate railroads, steel, banking, and oil.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

So the did they not pass go?

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So for men like Rockefeller and Connornie, success meant controlling resources. For Cope and Marsh, the resource happened to be knowledge. Every fossil represented a pr um prestige, every discovery represented influence, and every scientific victory represented status. Right. And every success achieved by the other man felt like a personal defeat.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

What a what a way to live life. Yeah. You couldn't just be like, and you don't even have to be happy for the other person, but just focus on your own shit, man. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

So by the 1880s, the battlefield began to shift

Politics Newspapers And Mutual Destruction

SPEAKER_01 36:53

a little bit. Oh the fighting was no longer taking place solely in dusty quarries and remote railroad towns. It was moving to Washington, D.C.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Oh, good place to go.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Marsh was about to gain an advantage that Cope could not easily overcome. While Cope continued spreading enormous sums of his own money on expeditions, fossil purchases, and publications, Marsh focused on building political power.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

He formed a close relationship with John Wesley Powell, the famous explorer of the Grand Canyon and one of the most influential figures in American science. When Powell rose to leadership within the United States Geological Survey, Marsh benefited enormously. Soon he secured a prominent position within the Federal Scientific Establishment and gained significant influence over government paleontology programs.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Smooth move there, buddy, because fucking hell.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

For the first time, Marsh possessed something even more powerful than personal wealth. He had institutional backing. Yeah. That support allowed him to steer resources towards his own projects while limiting opportunities for his rival. To cope, it felt like being slowly squeezed out of the profession he helped build. Then came an even more aggressive move. Questions soon emerged about who actually owned many of the fossils being collected in the American West. During the 19th century, the rules sound uh surrounding fossil ownership were often vague, especially when discoveries were made during government-funded geological surveys. Marsh and his allies argued that specimens collected with government resources, transportation, or personnel should belong to the federal government and its institutions rather than individual scientists. Since Cope had occasionally worked alongside government survey teams and benefited from their support, critics claimed that at least some of their fossils in his enormous enormous private collection should have been turned over to public institutions such as the Smithsonian.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

So he basically just did that knowing that Cope had worked with the government on some of these projects to make him lose some of his personal. Wow. So if successful When you first described Marsh. You thought he was like the good. You thought he was the good guy. Yeah. I'm not saying Cope's good. And like what I I don't remember who always says this, but basically, you always say when you hear a story, there's a good person and a bad person. Yeah. Sometimes there's two bad. No one's good. There's two bad here. There's one bad, one worse. Yep. Marsh is starting to be a little worse in my book. Let's see if he redeems himself or cope fucks up even more.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

So if successful, the claim could have stripped Cope of much of his life's work. Fortunately for Cope, he kept records. As rushed as he is, he actually kept records, receipts, ledgers, travel documents, purchase agreements, years of carefully organized paperwork. Okay. When challenged. Yeah. When challenged, Cope produced enough documentation to demonstrate that most of the fossils had been acquired through his own privately funded expeditions.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Okay, but you said most of. So were some done the way that Marsh applied? So they just said this isn't worth our time, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

But the damage was already done. Cope was financially exhausted, professionally isolated, and convinced that Mark had or Marsh had orchestrated the entire effort. So for years he had been fighting a scientific rival. Now he believed he was fighting an enemy, and he was prepared to strike back.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

By the end of the 1880s, the Bone Wars had consumed nearly every aspect of Edward Cope's life. For years he had been quietly collecting ammunition against Marsh, compiling every rumor, every complaint from former employees, every alleged mistake, and every accusation he could find.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

And he would have Cope would have been 40 in 1880, if I remember right. You said 1840 he was born?

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yes. So the growing collection became so extensive that Cope reportedly gave it its own name, like the just the research, his own name, Mariana. Historians aren't sure why he chose that name, because like sometimes they'll name trains and ships, female names, you know, that kind of stuff. But um, by the end of the 1880s, it had become a weapon he was uh preparing to unleash on Marsh. Wow. Yes. In January of 1890, he finally decided to use it. He unleashed Mariana? Yes. Rather than continuing the fight through scientific journals, Cope took his accusations directly to the public. Working with journalist William Jose Balo, he helped publish a sensational expose in the pages of the New York Herald, one of the most widely read newspapers in America.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

At that time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

And the article landed like a bomb. Readers were greeted with headlines describing bitter warfare among America's leading scientists. Cope accused Marsh of taking credit for discoveries made by field workers. He accused him of scientific incompetence. Most damaging, he accused Marsh and his ally John Wesley Powell of mismanaging government funds through the United States Geological Survey. Wow. Suddenly, a feud that had simmered within scientific circles for decades was splashed across newspapers for the entire country to see. And of course, the public loved it.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Well, yeah, it was it was juicy gossip. It was.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

It was the era of sensational journalism. It's like the Kardashians of the 1890s. The story had everything people wanted powerful men, personal grudges, accusations of corruption, and public humiliation. Wow. But of course, Marsh responded immediately. Well, he has to. Using the same newspapers, he published lengthy rebuttals and counterattacks. Then he reached for the weapon that he knew would hurt Cope the most. The Elasa the Elasomo Gosh, why can I not say it? Elasmosaurus mistake.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

The head on the butt?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Elasimorus Elasomorosaur.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Why don't you leave it where you left it? Let's just move on.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Elasomosaurus. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Oh my god. That took forever.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Elasomosaurus mistake. Yeah. So head on the butt. More than 20 years had passed. Since Cope accidentally placed the head on the wrong end of the skeleton. Jesus Christ. But Marsh J. Dragged the story back into the spotlight and presented it as proof that his rival was careless and unreliable.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

So, I mean, in Marsh's I don't want to really defend him because he seems like kind of like a dick, to be honest. Um, in his defense on this, though, you you have this Cope attacking Marsh, obviously, in the papers, but then it's like, hey, this is actually something he did. Why are you gonna believe him? Right. He couldn't even find out where the head went on this dinosaur. Right. Are you gonna believe him on everything? Yep. You know, and that that's a that's a wicked blow from Marsh back to Cope, then because Cope can't refute that. He fucked it up because he's impatient and rushed that shit out. So well.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

So soon the two men were publicly accusing each other of incompetence, dishonesty, and corruption while the entire country watched. Right. And of course, the scientific community was absolutely horrified. Sure. The consequences quickly extended beyond personal embarrassment because COPE's accusations had involved federal money. Yep, cong Congress began paying attention. Sure. Lawmakers launched investigations into the United States Geological Survey and started scrutinizing the agency spending. Marsh's extensive government-funded publications became an easy target.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

One Congressman openly mocked a major paleontol paleontological work about prehistoric birds with teeth, questioning why taxpayers should be funding such research in the first place. So the criticism gained traction.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

The funding was reduced, budgets were cut, and Marsh's influence within the federal scientific establishment began to crumble. In the end, neither man emerged victorious.

What They Found And What It Cost

SPEAKER_01 46:03

After decades of warfare, they had largely succeeded succeeded in destroying one another. Cope spent enormous sums funding expeditions, purchasing fossils, and publishing papers. Marsh spent equally staggering amounts building collections, financing excavations, and defending his position. Both reputations suffered, both careers were damaged. Both men saw much of their wealth consumed by the rivalry and the enormous cost of their scientific work.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

The feud that had started with a secret bribe in in New Jersey had become one of the most destructive rivalries in scientific history. Edward Cope died in 1897 at the age of 56.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Wow, I say he's pretty young.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Years of field work and chronic health problems had taken their toll, his toll, their toll. Disfortune was gone. His marriage had collapsed.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Oh, he was married at this time too.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

He spent his final years surrounded by the fossils, notebooks, and specimens that had consumed so much of his life. His poor wife. Yet even at the very end, he could not resist one final challenge.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

In his will, Cope requested that his brain be preserved and weighed after his death. Like many educated people of the 19th century, he believed brain size was linked to intelligence. It's not. His challenge was directly squared at Marsh. According to later accounts, Cope hoped his pres preserved brain would eventually be compared with Marsh's.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Reflecting his belief that brain size was linked to intelligence. It's not. He won one final competition, one lens chance. When Marsh died just two years later in 1899, he declined and the contest remained unfinished.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Ironically, Marshall's final years looked very similar to Cope's.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Despite inheriting substantial wealth and enjoying decades of professional success, he too died with much of his fortune depleted by his lifelong obsession with paleontology. For all their differences, the two men ultimately arrived at remarkable similar endings.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Isn't it wild?

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Both had spent decades pursuing fossils with almost obsessive determination.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Both had sacrificed four fortunes in the process. Both watched their reputations suffer as the feud spiraled out of control. Which is wild. In many ways, the thing that granted their place in history was not simply the dinosaurs they discovered, but the rivalry that consumed so much of their lives.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

It was more the the the rivalry than than it was their accomplishments, because I never fucking heard of them. I'm not saying that means anything because I I haven't heard of a lot of fucking people, but the point is the fact is the reason why we're doing a story on them isn't because of what they did to a degree. It's what they did to each other.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

To each other, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

It's just fucking wild.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

So before Cope and Marsh began their rival rivalry, only a handful of dinosaur species had been identified in North America.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

By the time they died, that number had exploded. Sure. The Bone Wars produced some of the most famous dinosaurs ever discovered, including Stegosaurus, nice, Allosaurus, Diplodocus, and Triceratops.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Oh, nice. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Museums filled with specimens. Scientific collections expanded dramatically. The United States emerged as one of the world's leading centers of paleontologic paleontological research.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

The modern study of dinosaurs was built largely on the foundations that they created. At the same time, their rush to publish created countless mistakes that scientists spent decades correcting. Species were duplicated, reconstructions were wrong, confusion spread through the scientific literature. The bone wars advanced science and damaged it at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Isn't that wild?

SPEAKER_01 50:13

And that is the bone wars.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

So doesn't it frustrate you knowing that most fossils, like you'll go to a museum and it's like, look at this T-Rex, just for example.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

And like 90% of it's fake.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah, they're they're replicas. A lot of them are replicas, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

That's kind of horseshit.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

I would rather see an incomplete skeleton than a fake one. Yeah. Personally. And it's kind of depressing that that's the case. And I I'm gonna blame Copen Marsh for that.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

So there is a movie about this? No. Oh. Called Dinosaur 13 from 2014. It's an award-winning documentary and it covers the 10-year legal battle over Sue the T-Rex's skeleton from Chicago.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

From the Field Museum.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

From the Field Museum. I highly recommend it. I've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Did you watch it?

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Mm-hmm. I highly recommend it. It's super, super good. Dinosaur 13. I would like to watch that.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

I kind of want to go have a pseudo-su now.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Fucking banquet. I'm just kidding. I'm liking my banquet. Now I want a pseudo-soo.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah, so happy 100th episode of the history of the five.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Congrats to you and Mossel. Yeah. I do take part in this. But uh yeah, I'd say cheers, but I'll still cheers you.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Cheers to a hundred. Um cheers to another hundred, and hopefully people enjoy this as much as we do. Welp.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Alright, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at History Buffoons Podcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

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SPEAKER_02 52:37

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.