He's a Yes Man: 5 Men and Anne Boleyn

Welcome Back And Beer Picks

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Oh, hey there.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Oh, hey there.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We're the history buffoons. I'm Kate. I'm Bradley.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

And this is the history of buffoons.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Uh we took a little summer break in our last main episode. We uh talked about your trip to South Dakota.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Yeah, that was great.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

And we had mentioned I was going to Colorado. So with that being said, before we even get into what we're doing today, I brought us back some beers that we'll go over. But what do you got for us today?

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Well I'm I'm assuming you know this story.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

But maybe not all the details. Probably not. So it is we're gonna talk about the five men who died with Anne Boleyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Oh, sure, yeah. Like her brother and other people's they all the other people's. I know of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Yeah, I figured you would.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I don't know exactly like oh her cousin twice removed die because she was accused of banging her cousin or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

You can see Anne's story everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, but you don't hear about the little people.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

Well, you don't hear about the little people, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

We're here for the little people. Yeah, we are because we like to do stories that aren't always just about the mainstream beaten to death things and whatever. Because there are other people involved in these historic stories. Yes. These historical documents. Historical documents. I love Galaxy. I just watched it a couple weeks ago. So great. Such a great movie. Alright. So I went to Colorado. It was amazing. I'm surprised I'm back. Um, but I I'm surprised. I um I found a variety pack that I thought would suit us very well. So I have two different ones. You have two different ones. I have a peach pale ale brewed with ripened peaches. That sounds so good. It does. I really and I'm I'm I've liked I couldn't eat just like a regular old peach, cut it up and eat it.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I don't think I could, but I like the flavoring of it. Yeah. And then I also have a double IPA Imperial India Pale Ale. 8% bam. And then the two you had out of the variety pack.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Frost beer.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

No, you have a fest beer.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Fest beer, sorry. Fest beer. It's a German-style lager.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

And then I have a Mexican lager, which is always my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Which you like because of the Modello, but the Fest beer is kind of like uh a typical German lager. I mean, really.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

I'm gonna try that one first, actually.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I think I'd be shocked if you don't like it, but you never know. I think I think I'm gonna start with the peach only because I feel like the that and I feel like the double is gonna alter the flavor for the peach for me. Maybe I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

I would I would think the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

You never know. Yeah, cheers.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Yeah, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Super subtle on the peach. It's more like on the back end.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Not very much peach.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

There's still a third one in our variety pack, right? Because I wanted to try it.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, no, I have two of them because you get three of each, so you can have the third one. Um it's not bad. It's just not it's not very peachy, which also sometimes isn't a bad thing. Yeah. Because I feel like when beers get flavored like this, they they overpower, and it's just like all you taste, and it's like, well, where's the beer?

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

You know, I could have drank a monster peach or something if I wanted, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Well, I'm glad it's decent. No, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

We'll try out the double IPA.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Okay, we ready?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Let's talk about the little peeps.

SPEAKER_04 4:12

So before I have to make my font bigger because Well, she's going, I'm getting going blonde.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

She's getting old. She'll be uh she's getting she'll be 41 in about a week and a half from this recording. And um yeah, it's downhill.

Why Anne Boleyn Becomes A Target

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Trust me, I know I'm I'm further advanced than you are.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

And I'll never catch up. No. Okay, so before we get to the five men, I'm just gonna kind of gloss over Anne and why we're in this situation. The cliff notes of Anne. Exactly. So Anne Boleyn was born around 1501.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, because there's some like speculation.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Yeah, yeah, and she was born into the Bolin family. Her father, Thomas Boleyn, was a successful diplomat. Yep, and he made sure that his children um received an excellent education.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

So Anne spent much of her youth in the courts of Netherland and France. And by the time she returned to England, she was super intelligent, well-spoken, she was fashionable, and she was a little bit more worldly than the other women in Henry the Eighth's court.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

So when Anne caught the attention of Henry the Eighth um in the mid-1520s, he was already married to Catherine of Aragorn. Aragog, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I was gonna say Aragog, but I'm like, I'm just gonna say it like that, but say Aragorn.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Um Spain. Yeah, so the marriage had lasted for 20 years already.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Like they were and do you remember how he married her? Because she was supposed to marry her his brother, but his brother died, and then she married him.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

I don't know the the story like you do.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I know again my okay, you're about to be 41. I'm shortly on the verge of being 47. My brain doesn't work like it used to. So if I get any facts wrong, I apologize to our three listeners, and um I will do my best not to fuck it up, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was. Yeah, like I think it sounds he died about right. Because that was like part of the whole con like who he's contesting the the marriage, like, well, she consummated with my brother, so it wasn't legal, and so on and so forth, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

So yeah, but anyways, so their marriage lasted for about 20 years, and she did have several pregnancies, but only gave one gave birth to one child, and that was Princess Mary. Yeah, um, Henry desperately wanted a legitimate son to secure the Tudor dynasty, yeah. And as time went on, he became convinced that his marriage was somehow can uh cursed.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, you know, it's funny back in the fifth early 1500s how yourself, other people speaking in your ear about shit all the time can just make you go like peer pressure, like the ultimate peer pressure. I was always under the impression, this is I've said this like most of my life, is there's no such thing as peer pressure, there's just weak people.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Honestly, yeah, manipulative people and weak people. There's manipulative people, don't get me wrong, and they can certainly sway you into a a certain direction that they would like. Um, but like I know it's hard, especially when you're younger, especially in like you know, school age, like my son will be coming up to this soon. But it's like okay, just because they're it's the whole, well, if they jumped off a bridge, would you? Yeah. Question? Yeah. Well, no, I'm not a fucking idiot. Yeah. And just because they did doesn't, and you can put insert take out bridge and put whatever here. It's just sad that some people are so like, I have to fit in.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

But I get it, especially at a young age, you know, you're trying to find yourself and so on, and whatever, and it's it's it's tough.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

So I feel bad that but that's exactly what this tutor court was. It was just gossip and well, and that's what any court manipulation left and right back in the 1500s.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

That's what you had because anything that happened at court trickled out towards, you know, the the peasants or whatever you want to call them.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

And um, you know, it's like, well, even like fashion, just as basic as that. Well, uh, what what's the movie? Uh I'm drawing a blank on those one line. It's like, um, oh, it's Pirates of the Caribbean. Um, when he gets his address for Elizabeth Swan saying, I hear that's what they're all wearing at courts and room.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

You've never been to Singapore.

unknown 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Fucking love Johnny Depp. He's so he's such a national treasure as well. Um, but it's basically like that, just as basic as fashion. It's like, well, the people at court is wearing this, so it must be great because they're great people because they're at court and I'm not, kind of thing. Yeah. So they would buy dresses and garments and whatever to the original influencers. Fucking influencers.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, don't get me started on that shit.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

So, um, unlike several women before her, Anne refused to become the king's mistress. Um, conviction, ambition, who knows, maybe both, but she held her ground, and that made Henry even more determined to marry her.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

In his eyes, she was playing hard to get. And that sometimes drives a especially a king fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Yeah, because he can get whatever he wants, and all of a sudden, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I want your hoo-ha.

unknown 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Why aren't you giving it to me?

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Now I want it more because you will not give it to me. And it's just like, all right.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

So when the Pope refused to grant Henry an annulment from Catherine, the king made a decision that ended up changing England forever.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Oh, yeah. That's why there's a thing called the Church of England.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

He broke with the Roman Catholic Church and established the Church of England with himself as the head and married Anne in 1533.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

And I think we've mentioned this before, but I'm pretty positive to this day that so like now King Charles, because obviously Princess Uh Elizabeth or Queen Elizabeth, Princess Queen Elizabeth died.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

I think now it's King Charles the Third. I think he's the third. Is he the third?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

That sounds right. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. You could be mine. That's a good guns and roses song. Anyways, um I believe the whoever's queen or king is still the head of the church, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong, but yeah. Makes sense though. I mean, they started it.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

They did.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Many, many. He started it. Oh, Jesus. I mean, this is isn't it a while we're talking about something that would happen 500 fucking years ago? It's so wild. It is. That's why I love history.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

So at first it looked like Anne had like achieved the impossible. She had become queen, um, something very few people could have imagined.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Um, but the celebration didn't last very long. Instead of giving Henry the son that he desperately wanted, he and gave birth to a daughter, the future first Elizabeth, yes. Yep, the first future Queen Elizabeth I. Um, several pregnancies did follow, but but she had miscarriages. Um, and there was speculation that her last miscarriage was supposed to be a um a boy.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

So did you ever hear the rumor that Queen Elizabeth was the first was actually not his daughter, but like some a boy that they dressed up as a girl and all that stuff, and that's why she had really long fingers and weird shit. It's just conspiracy theory, yeah. All that shit. Nothing ever proven to the remotely close, but yeah, there's some weird conspiracy theory that we'll have to look into that. Yeah, you should because it's it would be maybe a fun episode.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Have you seen any of like the movies made on Queen Elizabeth the First? Like, because there's one with Kate Blanchett. Isn't there two? Isn't there two with there?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

I want to say there's two, isn't like one's the golden age and one's something something or other. I have not. Um I uh I love King Henry history. Not that I don't like the Elizabeth I, I just never really got into it.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

You never got past that first tutor, more or less.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

So by the beginning of 1536, Anne's position had become increasingly fragile. Yeah, um, Henry's attention had begun to drift towards one of Ann's ladies in waiting, Jane Seymour. Seymour. Yep. And in January, Anne suffered what was likely her last miscarriage, and it was presumably a baby boy. Oops. And this um also kind of marked the turning point in Harry's feelings towards this other woman. So around the same time, Anne's relationship with one of the king's most trusted advisors, Thomas Cromwell, was also beginning to fall apart. He wasn't just a court official, as he was Henry III's, nope, Henry the Eighth's chief, I just saw the three ones. That's fine. Um, Henry the Eighth's chief minister and chief secretary.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

You know, the funny thing is it's three eyes, but yes, it is.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

Anyways, and he was arguably the second most powerful man in England. He had a lot of fucking power, he did a lot of things. He was not born in ro in royalty, nobility. Um, he had to climb through the ranks with his intelligence, he had legal expertise, and he had the extraordinary ability to make things happen.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, he was a very smart man. He was a yes man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but he was he was yes, he was smart though. Yes, he was.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

So when Harry wanted, nope, wow. What I'm I need to reassess my my eyeballs here.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Was his nickname Harry? You keep saying Harry.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Do I throughout this whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

You've said it twice now.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

Shipballs. I absolutely know it's Henry. Why do I keep saying Harry?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

I don't know. Oh my gosh. I don't remember Henry

Cromwell, Power, And A Fast Plot

SPEAKER_00 14:10

being nicknamed Harry.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Nope. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

That's just you're a misslip. Good grief. I'm gonna zoom in on that eye cross there.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

So when Henry wanted to break with the royal, nope, Jesus Christ. Superstar. I'm gonna take a drink and we're gonna start that sentence over.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

So um, yeah. Am I right? Way to fill the gap. I was trying to come up with something and I could not.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

So he wanted to break from the Roman Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

And Cromwell helped build that legal framework, right? So when Parliament needed convincing, Cromwell handled it. If the king wanted something accomplished, Cromwell handled it, he would figure it out. And ironically, Anne and Cromwell weren't always rivals. Wasn't it Wolsey? Both were involved at different stages. Correct. Okay, I just Cardinal Wolsey was Henry's chief minister. Yes. When Harry first wanted out of his marriage.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

And but Cromwell made it happen.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Woolsey tried to secure an annulment. He negotiated with the Pope, but couldn't the Pope.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

The Pope.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

And the effort failed.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, he couldn't do it. Yeah. And that's how he kind of fell out of favor with Henry.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

And then Cromwell rose after Woolsey's fall.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Right. Okay. Okay. I just wanted to confirm that.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah, no, it's that's great. I'm glad you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

So Cromwell was the man to kind of help um initiate what he wanted. He ended the marriage. The marriage.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Um he was able to officially do it.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Cardinal Woolsey started it and failed, and he fell out of favor, and then Cromwell took over. Right. So Cromwell was the one that got the annulment.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Right, right, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:05

So Anna Cromwell weren't always rivals. For several years, they actually worked towards many of the same goals, particularly England's Break from Rome and religious reform.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

But once that fight had been won, their alliance began to fracture. They clashed over what should happen with the enormous wealth pouring into the crown from the dissolved minist monasteries, and believed it you should be used to establish schools and support universities and care for the poor. And Cromwell believed these resources should strengthen the crown.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Well, okay, so she was a person of the people. He was a person of the crown, clearly.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And he also probably went that way because it would be seen better for the king. The king seeing him do it well. He's he's trying to up my status, if you will. I don't know how you up a king's status, but you know what I mean. Secure it.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah, better popularity, I think. Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah. But don't you think you mean but be more popular if you help the people?

SPEAKER_04 17:14

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

What do you think of your beer?

SPEAKER_04 17:16

I like it.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, I thought you might.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

Yeah, I do. So they also disagreed over foreign policy, with Anne favoring closer ties to France and Cromwell looking towards the Holy Roman Empire.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Well, she had ties to France being there in her youth. And like um was it was she ever engaged when she was in France? Nothing. Am I misremembering that?

SPEAKER_04 17:40

I I don't recall, but I also I know bits and pieces about Anne. And to be honest, I'm almost a little like bitter, like researching her because she's so overdone.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Which is why I went for like Lady Jane Gray. Right, right, right, right. Um, and there's someone else that I talk about briefly in the story that I actually started researching and then switch gears over to the men, which I'll bring up.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

But well, I I keep interrupting. Let's get to the the little peeps.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

So by early 1536, um, Cromwell and Anne were becoming political opponents. Yeah um and then what happened next, we really don't know. Some historians believe that Henry had already decided his marriage was over and ordered Cromwell to find a legal way out. Others argued that Cromwell saw Anne's growing um vulnerability and built a case himself before presenting it to the king.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

A third theory, and one that many historians find per persuasive today, is that neither men needed to spell out what the other wanted. Henry wanted out of his marriage, Cromwell wanted his political rival removed and their interests simply aligned.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

So whatever whatever happened behind closed doors, one thing's for certain, once the investigation began with these men, it moved very fast.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Swiftly. Yeah. Yeah, very quickly.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Within days, rumors of adultery, treason, and incest swept through the royal court, and Anne was

Mark Smeaton And The Confession

SPEAKER_04 19:10

not the only person under suspicion.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Well, no, obviously, incest, her brother, is the one that they they said you had sex with your brother. It's like, no, I didn't, but okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

So investigators began looking at the men who had spent time around the queen, and before long, arrests were starting to happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

The first man that they came for was probably the least likely person anyone would have expected. Yeah. His name was Mark Smeaton. Smeaton. And unlike the others who would eventually stand trial, Smeaton wasn't born into England's nobility. He didn't inherit land, he didn't have an impressive title or come from any kind of powerful family. Um, in Tudor Court, where your family name often mattered more than your abilities, Mark was an outsider.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

But he did have talent.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Was he the musician?

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Smeaton was a gifted musician who played the lute, the virginals, which are a smaller version of the harpsichord.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Oh, it's not just never mind.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Um, and other instruments. Um so he eventually earned a position in the royal household as a court musician. Right. So it wasn't a glamorous job, but it placed him in rooms with some of the most powerful people in England.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

And it's back then, if you even if you man, you play that loot real well, and something could come of it. You don't fucking know. Yeah. It's not like you're gonna get a castle somewhere, but I don't know, people take care of you because they enjoyed that melody or some shit.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Yeah. So he entertained kings and queens, attended banquets and celebrations, and became a familiar face around court. Yeah, he wasn't part of Anne's inner circle, and he's he but he certainly would have seen her often, um, and maybe occasionally interacted her during court entertainment.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:05

Okay. So this proximity would be his downfall.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

That's sad.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Someone had to be questioned first, and Mark Smeaton was their obvious choice. He had no family to defend him, no army of influential relatives needing answers, no noble title that made his arrest politically risky.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

No, he was just he was the first uh sheep to slaughter, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

So and if investigators wanted wanted information or confession, he was by far the easiest target.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Well, yeah, because he's gonna he's gonna start saying shit just to get out of it. Because like I'm not it's like the whole um we talked about it once before, like the coursing a uh a confession basically out of somebody just so they stop torturing you or whatever it might be. Same thing, really. It's like I didn't do anything, but yeah, I saw her with her brother. Just will that get me out of this? It's like, no, you just condemned yourself and her now. Yeah. Is what it is. Yeah. Which is sad.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

So on April 30th, 1536, Smeaton was taken into custody. And so instead of being brought directly to the Tower of London, he was first questioned at Cromwell's house in Stepney or Stepney. Um it's a suburb. Stepney. Stepney, it's a suburb in London. It's actually kind of near the Tower of London.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Right. I I'm pretty sure it's Stepney. Okay. But I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

So exactly what happened during that interrogation has been debated for centuries because there are no official records.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Well, they're not gonna record it, obviously. There could have been 20 people there, and everyone's like, shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah, I don't see nothing.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I don't, I was there for dinner.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

I had a nice meet.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Was that a crow that were that just flew by the window?

SPEAKER_00 22:49

No, that was a Cromwell.

SPEAKER_04 22:54

So what we do know is that sometime afterwards, Smeaton confessed to having an adulterous relationship with Anne.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

See, it's so fucking wild.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

That confession, what whether that confession was true is complete a different matter. Modern historians doubt it. English law technically prohibited torture without the king's authorization, but there was always ways around that rule, especially in cases involving alleged treason.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Contemporary reports don't explicitly state that Smeaton was tortured, yet several later accounts strongly suggested he may have been subjected to the rack or threatened with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I wouldn't want to be threatened with it, let alone subjected to it. So I mean, sure.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

So others believe psychological pressure alone could have broke him. So we're not sure. But imagine being this like common commoner sitting across from Thomas Cromwell, one of the most powerful men in England, knowing your life depended entirely on what you said or what you didn't say.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Right. Fucking hell. That's wild.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Even without physical torture, it it was probably torture for him. Sure. Yeah. So the imperial ambassador for Henry VIII under the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, named Eustace Capoy. Chapo Chapoy. Chapoy. Chapoy.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Chapoy.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Eustace Chapoy. He later reported that Smeaton had confessed, but he also noted that many people questioned how that confession had been made. Um, excuse me, obtained.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Confession?

SPEAKER_04 24:33

Yeah. Okay. Chapoy wasn't sympathetic to Anne, yet he seemed skeptical about the circumstances surrounding the investigation.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Well, if you had any fucking head on your shoulders, you should seem skeptical about this because it just seems like, again, this confession was coerced, whether it was even coerced or just fabricated completely and said we got it from him.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

You don't fucking know. You should if you had any remote fucking doubt, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 25:01

So I did a brief little run through of Chapoy, and he was like he had a ton of documents. He wrote about everything. Oh wow. So and all and most of it survived.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

So um that's why he is brought up, is because he documented quite a bit during this time. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

But he hated Ann. So all of all of his writings are biased. She's she's a bitch. Well, he he was in favor of Catherine of Aragon, so oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

But I don't know if he knew this. Henry wasn't trying to get back with her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

So whatever happened in that interrogation interrogation room, Cromwell walked away with exactly what he needed. Yeah. A confession. And in Tudor England, especially in a case involving a queen, a confession carried enormous weight.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Which is just wild.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

It didn't matter that there was no physical evidence. It didn't matter there was no witness.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Don't you find it funny that more or less a peasant's confession carried more weight than the queen's confession? Yeah. Isn't that fucking wild? Yeah. That that that's even a thing. Because like King Henry, Cromwell, higher-ups, whatever you want to call him, all believed this chorus. Whether King Henry knew it or not, he believed this guy over his wife. Yeah. Which is just wild. And the only reason why he did is because I don't want to be with her anymore.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Which is just weird.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Yeah. So it also didn't matter that the timeline didn't mat match.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Didn't match. Didn't work at all. Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_04 26:41

Once Meaton admitted guilt, whether willingly or under pressure, the event the investigation just went rampant, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

So if the queen had one lawn lover, why couldn't she have more than one? So who was next? Men who had spent years enjoying the king's confidence, uh, suddenly found themselves wondering whether an innocent conversation, a shared laugh, or simply being seen too close in proximity to Anne could now be twisted into evidence against them.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Do you think like they questioned some younger guy? Like, I just filled their cup with wine, sir.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

I know, right? So

Henry Norris And A Refused Deal

SPEAKER_04 27:20

the atmosphere at court must have been horrendous.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

It could it could not have been easy for for the little people.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Every whisper suddenly sounded dangerous, every friendship was suspicious. And before anyone had time to process Smeaton's arrest, investigators set their sight on closer to on someone closer to the king.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Which was who?

SPEAKER_04 27:43

Henry Norris. I know that name. So unlike Smeaton, Henry Norris wasn't an easy target. Um, accusing Norris was so shocking that many people at court wasn't weren't believing it. They're like, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

He wasn't just another nobleman drifting through palace life. He had risen through royal household over many years to become groom of the stool.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Poop.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Yeah. One of the most intimate and trusted positions in all of England.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Because you literally clean the king's ass.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

The groom of stool assisted the king with some of the most private daily routines and enjoyed almost constant access to him. Yeah. Because pooping happens all the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Everybody poops.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

I know, but like all the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Well, I mean, people have bowel movements on the reg.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

But Henry Norris wasn't what they would call like a simple servant. He was one of Henry VIII's closest companions, someone the king trusted enough to be around him when almost no one else was.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

And that made his suspicion almost unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Did you come across who suggested that he would be? Was it Henry or was it?

SPEAKER_04 28:54

I did not. Did not come across that. Henry Norris had spent years earning Henry VIII's confidence. He wasn't the kind of man who would burst into a room demanding attention or constantly maneuvered for power. He built his reputation the slow and honest way through loyalty, discretion, and reliability. Yeah. So in a court filled with ambitious nobles trying to outshine one another, Norris had become the a man that the king could rely on. So unlike Smeaton, whose confession had at least given investigators a starting point, Norris was one of the last people, one of the last that people anyone expected to see accused.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Well, yeah, because again, of his close relation with Henry, uh the king. Um I mean, Smeaton, whether he was smitten with her or not, Smeaton Smitten. Doesn't matter because he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This guy is literally wiping the king's ass. Yeah. And it's like, when would I have fucked your wife? Yeah. Seriously. That makes no frickin' sense. Yeah. But okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

So even Eustace Chapoy, who rarely missed an opportunity to criticize Anne, seemed surprised that someone so close to the king suddenly became part of this conspiracy. Exactly. The accusation against Norris centered around something that was not remarkable. Right. Just a few days before his arrest, Anne had supposedly teased Norris during a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

According to later accounts, she jokingly asked why he hadn't married yet, and then added something along the lines of quote, you look for dead men's shoes. For if Ock came to the king but good, you would look to have me, end quote. Essentially, looking for dead man's shoes was a tutor expression that meant hoping to inherit someone's else, someone else's position after they died.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

And Anne's comment appears to have been teasing Norris about remaining unmarried because think people think that he was waiting for the king to die so he could marry the queen.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, that's not how it works either, but okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

So Anne reportedly realized almost immediately that she went too far. Right. According to several accounts, she quickly insisted that Norris should deny ever having thoughts like that and swear his loyalty loyalty to the king.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

But his loyalty was already. Yeah. I shouldn't have to like swear loyalty. You're the one who said it. You should be more loyal, you butch.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

So once the investigation began, those few exchanged words were transformed into evidence of treason.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

So who overheard those words?

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Probably her lit ladies in waiting.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

And those little bitches snitched? Probably. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

There's a lot of there's a lot of people in court who just want a leg up.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Literally.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

So obviously this wasn't proof of adultery. It wasn't proof of conspiracy.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

It's not proof of, I don't know, anything.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

But the invest investigators already believed or wanted to believe that Anne was plotting against the king.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Then came a remarkable moment in the investigation. Henry, the king, himself confronted Norris. Accounts differ on exactly how the conversation unfolded, but most agree on the basic facts. Yeah. The queen questioned Norris directly about the accusations and urged him to confess if he had done anything wrong. The queen did? No, the king asked Norris.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Okay, because he said queen.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Oh, I'm so sorry. The king asked Norris.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

I was just making sure I'm like, wait, Anne's question him now?

SPEAKER_04 32:58

So in Tudor England, a confession could sometimes lead to mercy, as you have mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:03

Especially if aligned with what the king wanted to hear. Of course. And Norris refused. He denied having any improper relationship with Anne Boleyn. Good. He denied plotting against the king. He denied every accusation placed before him. Good. And according to several chroniclers, Henry even told Norris that if he confessed, his life might be spared.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

See, isn't that fucked up? The way that their laws, whatever you want to say, work back then. It's like, hey, admit you did this. And I'll let you go. I might no, I might let you go.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

But he's like, putting it. Yeah. But he's like, no, I didn't fucking do this.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

And Norris refused. He didn't take it.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Stand up for him because the fact of like I would rather get executed knowing I stood up for myself than fucking bending the knee to your will and then still fucking getting killed. Yeah. Because then out now I go out as a fucking lying piece of shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

No, fuck that. Yeah. I would stand an adulterous and treasonous piece of shit.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

All this bad shit associated with you now because you wouldn't confess like the king wanted.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And you might save your life. Yeah. Like, no, I'd rather go out dead knowing that I fucking refuted this the whole way.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

Yeah. So whether Henry genuinely intended to show mercy or was simply trying to strengthen the case against Anne, it's impossible to know. Either way, Norris neither gave never gave investigators what they wanted.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

So dear. But unfortunately, his loyalty wasn't enough. No, of course not. On May 1st, 1536, during the annual May Day festivals at Greenwich Palace, Henry suddenly left the celebrations without warning. Just bye-bye. Just he just where'd he go? Where'd the king go? Peace, homies. The king had spent part of the day watching jousting tournaments with Anne seated behind him, and then with no explanation, he abruptly rode away on his horse or carriage, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

He rode away. Anne reportedly had no idea what was happening. However, that was when Henry Norris was arrested that day.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

So one moment everyone is celebrating spring with tournaments and music and feasting, and the next one of the king's closest friends is being escorted under guard, accused of sleeping with the queen. So people had been asking themselves this question: if Henry Norris wasn't safe, who was?

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Who the fuck is? The answer: the king. Yeah, he's the only one who's safe. He's the only one who's safe.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

So only a day after Norris was arrested, another

Francis Weston And Courtly Banter

SPEAKER_04 35:50

came up. Francis Weston.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Weston was everything you might expect from a rising Tudor courtier. Courtier? Courtier.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Let's go with it.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

He was young, handsome, well connected, and he became one of Henry VIII's favorites. Unlike Norris, who had spent years carefully earning the king's trust, Weston represented the next generation of noblemen making their way through court. But he also had something that the others don't. He had a wife and he had a very young son.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Weston wasn't simply a courtier caught in a political storm. He was a husband whose family suddenly found themselves in this like helpless situation. Sure. The accusations against Weston were similar to those against Norris. He said he have he was said to have carried on an affair with Anne Boleyn, though once again there was no evidence.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

When the fuck during this short time could she have banged all these guys? Like, could it have happened? I guess. But like we're talking about we're talking about 1530, whatever. The queen always has someone with them.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

There's always people around within the palace, castle, whatever, blah blah blah. Court. It's not like they could just sneak away to a broom closet and bang one out and then be back like nothing happened. Right. That's not how that world worked back then. So when the fuck? You know, the only difference is like I was thinking, like, will you visit my chambers this evening, my king?

SPEAKER_03 37:33

No.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

He's like, no, I'm gonna go bang this other chick.

SPEAKER_04 37:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

I can do that. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 37:39

So much of the prosecution's case relied on conversations, assumptions, and of course Smeaton's confession rather than anything with proof. One of the alleged incidents involved playful exchanges between Anne and Weston that under ordinary circumstances wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. Compliments, dancing, witty batter, banter, and playful teasing were all common. But once investigators decided that Anne had been unfaithful, nearly every interaction she had. What's wrong?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

I have a hole in my lip.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Um sorry about that.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

That's okay. So once they had decided that Anne had been unfaithful, nearly every interaction she had with a man suddenly became suspicious.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

So that's like and that's the thing. It's like, I must go buy some apples at the market. You talk to me, you're dead. It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Like, where does it end at that point? They're literally just it's a witch hunt.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

Yeah. And speaking of witch hunt, instead of gathering evidence and seeing where it leads, investigators had already decided on the ending, and their job was finding anything, no matter how ordinary, that could fit their narrative. Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

So it's like the news of today. What fits their narrative, they will put out there. And if it goes against it, they could they put the kibosh on it.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

Kabosh.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Kybosh. Kabosh. I always said that.

SPEAKER_04 39:10

So if Henry Norris's arrest had shocked the court and Francis Weston's had deepened that sense of panic, the next arrest left many people wondering if Anne connected if anyone connected to Anne was safe. Excuse me. The next day, investigators came for William Brereton. I didn't look up how to pronounce his name. Shit.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

Brereton.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

I'm not familiar.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

I'm gonna call him William.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

What's up, Bill?

SPEAKER_04 39:38

So today, William is probably the least known of the five men. Maybe that's why I don't know. But in 1536, he was anything but insignificant. He was one of the most powerful

William Brereton And Convenient Enemies

SPEAKER_04 39:50

royal officials in Wales.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Really?

SPEAKER_04 39:53

Mm-hmm. He oversaw enormous estates and acted as the king's representative across much of the region. He had accumulated wealth, influence, and enemies. Of course. Um, William had a reputation for being ambitious, ruthless, um, and fiercely protective of his own authority. And those qualities helped him rise through Henry's government, but they also created plenty of resentment along the way.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

From other people. They probably saw this as an opportunity like, let's get rid of this motherfucker.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Exactly. That's one reason historians have always viewed his inclusion in the case with suspicion. Sure. Unlike Norris and Wheaton, William wasn't especially close to Anne. In fact, there's very little evidence they even spent any time together.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

See, that's fucked up.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

He served the king primarily in Wales, meaning he was often nowhere near the royal court.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Which where Anne would have been.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Yet somehow he was accused with having an affair with her.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

So there is a historian who has writ written a couple of books, one on Anne Boleyn, one on maybe Lady Jane Gray, um, maybe one on Henry VIII. I only a couple, but he's known to be like a leading Anne Boleyn biographer. His name is Eric Ives, I V-E-S. Okay. He argues that William may have been swept into the conspiracy because Cromwell had reasons beyond Anne's downfall for wanting him removed. Of course. Whether that's true is impossible to prove. Speculation, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Speculation. It's not like we can go question Cromwell.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

But this investigation could have killed two birds with one stone.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah, of course. Like that, and that's the thing back then is there is literally no proof at all. It's just pure fucking hearsay bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

And if someone of Cromwell's stature, you know, rose up, like, I want what he has, I can do this with this. Fucking A, why not?

SPEAKER_04 41:55

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

He didn't care about that guy whether he died or not.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

So William was arrested on May 4th and taken to the tower.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

He was arrested on Star Wars Day.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Within a few days, a court musician, one of the king's closest companions, a rising young courtier, Courtier, and now one of England's most influential administrators had all been arrested at the same time for the same crime.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah. So same time, same crime.

SPEAKER_04 42:26

Next, they arrested Ambolyn's brother.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Ambolyn's brother. What's his name again? George. George, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

He was one of the brightest men at Henry VIII's court.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Well, until he apparently fucked his sister.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Contemporaries described him as intelligent, charming, well educated, and he was a gifted speaker.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Like his sister, he had spent years um helping advance the fortunes of the Bolin family, and he had become a true diplomat for the king.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

He represented England on important diplomatic missions, spoke French fluently, debated theology with leading scholars, and he was known for his sharp wit, sharp wit. And if Anne had become Henry's favorite woman, George had become one of his favorite courtiers. So the siblings would. You're looking at me like I misspoke. Did I misspeak? No. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

You're good.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

So the siblings were undeniably close.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Because they're siblings.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

They spent a lot of time together at court. They shared political interests and frequently supported each other's ambitions.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Weird.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

In any normal family, this is not something that would need a double take.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

No.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

In May of 1536, not so much. George was accused not only of committing adultery with the queen, but of committing incest with his own sister. So even if the sister and the queen weren't the same person, it would be adultery and treason. Treason and incest.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Because um she is both, she's he's related to her, and she's queen, and she's also queen, yeah. And it's just really unfortunate because he never banged his sister. No, I I don't care what the no people say he never did that.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

No, so even by Tudor standards, incest wasn't just considered immoral, it was viewed as an offensive act against God. So, if true, it would have made Anne not only an unfaithful wife, but someone capable of corrupting the natural order of both family and kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

The problem is do you find it really funny?

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

That that's that's are you

George Boleyn And The Incest Charge

SPEAKER_00 44:40

gonna just say that?

SPEAKER_04 44:40

No, I want you to say it.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Do you find it funny that, like, oh my god, you fucked your brother, but kings and queens have been doing that for fucking generations.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

See, what I was going for is they're like, that's an act against God, and we separated from the church so that I could get an annulment. That's where I was headed.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah, but they still they still went with the Church of England and they still like followed God.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

I know, but it's just funny.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

They bent it God to his will.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

But no, it's just like weren't the Habsburgs all like incestuous?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Wasn't that the Habsburg draw? Yeah, where it's like it's like Quagmire and Family Guy or whatever, if you've ever seen that, or or just it's like a cartoonish-looking fucking person, and a lot of them died because of yeah, poor like genetics, basically. But yet, God forbid, but yo, hey, um, you this cousin's your first one. It's fine. Do that, and then next one will be once removed, whatever. I mean, it's like what an actual fuck. Yeah. But I mean, I get it. I think it's all wrong. I'm not I'm not saying kings can do it. It's just ironic. It's just ironic that the fact that, hey, you did this, supposedly, allegedly, but yet the kings and queens have been doing this for literally generations, and that's why there's fucking mutations and weird jaws and death. But yet, you suck.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

So, again, with George and Ann, the evidence was almost non-existent. Most historians today reject the incest charge entirely. Because it didn't happen. By the time George Bolin was arrested, investigators had rounded up everyone they believed was involved, or everyone they wanted to make involved. The actu excuse me, the accusations painted a picture of a queen carrying on affairs with multiple men over several years, secretly meeting them in royal places across England while plotting against the king himself. Sounds a little bit overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Do you find it funny that part of the thing was her plotting against the king?

SPEAKER_04 46:51

I don't that's all she wanted was the status, so why would she might not have given a shit about him when you boil it down?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

She wanted to be queen. Yeah, but she didn't fucking care. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure she would have kept it in her pants. Does that work for for females? You know what I mean. You get the reference.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

She would have kept her pantalones on.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Wouldn't she have worn a dress though? Mostly.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

Yeah, but they usually have something underneath.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Oh, isn't it like those weird like frilly things that you see?

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Yeah, I don't remember what they're called.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

I don't either. Um, let's go with pantalones. Um, but it's it's I don't know. Pantalones threw me off from what I was saying. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 47:34

Sorry. So most historians have spent centuries comparing the indictments with surviving household records, travel itineraries, ambassador reports, and court documents. And in many cases, the dates of all these um accused individuals with Anne don't line up.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

At all, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

Anne was accused of meeting some of the men while records placed her at an entirely different royal residence. Other occasions, one of the accused appeared to have been hundreds of miles away carrying out official duties. Some alleged affairs were said to have occurred while Anne was heavily pregnant or recovering from childbirth, making them highly improbable.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

And one of the clearest examples involves William.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

Prosecutors claimed he met Anne at Greenwich on November 16th, night of 1535. Yet records strongly suggest he was carrying out official business in Wales around the same time. George Boland's incest charges suffer from similar problems with several alleged meetings proving difficult to reconcile with where Anne and George were actually known to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

But he's also her brother.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

Yeah. I mean, Jesus fuck. So none of this means historians can prove exactly what happened inside the rural court nearly 500 years ago. Nope. Um, but what it does mean is that the prosecution had the timeline contains enough contradictions that many modern historians believe the case against Anne and the five men will were on shaky ground. Of course, yes. None of those contradictions, however, would matter.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

No, of course not. So not back then, it was enough to go on.

SPEAKER_04 49:21

So there was another reason that many historians remain skeptical.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:25

George Boleyn was married.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

His wife, Jane Parker. Jane Parker was the original subject of my research. Sure. Um, she is later known in history as Jane Boleyn or Lady Rockford. Okay. Um, she has, in fact, been accused of helping destroy her husband by testifying against him, and that's been the popular story for centuries.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

So she she uh testified that she he did bang his sister? Yes. So she just wanted a divorce? She apparently did not like George.

SPEAKER_04 50:02

There is no surviving testimony proving Jane accused George of incest, and many modern historians believe that story grew over time rather than coming directly from contemporary evidence. Sure. So what I did research with for Jane Parker is she is labeled as like this horrible wife who tried to get her husband arrested and killed.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

But there's zero evidence of that. Because after this whole situation, Jane came back to court and served under um who was the one before Mary of or um Mary of Cleves?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Mary of Cleves?

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Isn't Mary of Cleves?

SPEAKER_00 50:50

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

What was the other wife?

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Anne of Cleves.

SPEAKER_04 50:53

Anne of Cle is it Anne of Cleves? My bad. Anne of Cleves. And she came back and was sir served under Catherine Howard and maybe even Jane Seymour. Okay. So she came back and served under all of these additional. And if she was if she was the one who was She would not have come back. She would not have come back. They wouldn't have let her come back because she would be the type then to be disloyal. Right. So no.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

She would have been a dis disrupting factor in those other.

SPEAKER_04 51:26

But that wasn't the case. They're like, yeah, come back. We liked you. Serve the other queens.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Oh yeah. Your brother, he he banged your sister. You're good.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

You're good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

No, your brother. Your husband banged his sister.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

So what we do know is that George was arrested on May 2nd, and from that moment forward, his fate became tied with Anne's. Yes, of course. The Bolin family had um, which had written so spectacularly over the previous decade, was now collapsing almost overnight.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Didn't the father just like peace out, homies? No.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Um no, I I think I mentioned it here in a bit. Um Anne was imprisoned, George was imprisoned, his their father could do nothing, their mother could do nothing. And Henry VIII, um, the one who moved mountains to marry Anne, made no effort in stop in stopping what was unfair.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

No, because he wanted Anne to be killed. Because he didn't want to be with her anymore. That's how kings were operated back then.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

So for the first arrest to of the opening of the trials, barely two weeks had passed. By 16th century standards, that was fucking fast. Right. It felt like there was almost no time for the accused to prepare a defense, gather witnesses, or challenge the evidence presented against them.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 52:45

In many ways, it felt less like an investigation, more like just a machine that had already been put in motion. They had already determined what the outcome was. Okay. So if if the prisoners were hoping that the trials might finally give them a chance

Trials Built On Thin Evidence

SPEAKER_04 53:00

to clear their names, they would be bitterly disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Did they even get a chance to speak?

SPEAKER_04 53:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

At their hanging.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Oh, so they gave their last words, last rites, whatever. Not rest, but they got to say something like, I'm sorry for what I did.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Yeah. So the first trials began on May 12th, 1536, in Westminster Hall. Remember, the last person was um arrested on the 4th of May.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Yeah, so this is eight days later. Yeah, the trials started. Yeah. That's wild.

SPEAKER_04 53:35

Mark Smeaton, Henry Norris, Francis Weston, and William Breton were brought before a commission of nobles and judges to answer charges that, if proven, carried only one possible sentence. Death. Death. The indictments accused all four men of committing adultery with Queen Anne, and by doing so, conspiring against the king himself.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 54:00

Under Tudor law, adultery involving the king wasn't just a marital betrayal, it was considered treason because if any child born from those relationships could potentially claim or because it would be king, they could become um the king or queen. Even if it was like half half half noble.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Half noble, if you will. Yeah. There's a there's a claim to the throne. Yes. So that's why it's treasonous. Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_04 54:28

So sleeping with with the queen wasn't just an affair, it was a direct threat to the kingdom. Okay. So the prosecution's case relied heavily on Mark Smeaton's confession. The confession hung over the entire courtroom. If one man admitted the affair, surely the others must have been involved too, or at least that was the argument.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

It doesn't make any fucking sense.

SPEAKER_04 54:51

Beyond Smeat uh Smeaton's statement, the evidence was fucking thin. The prosecution pointed to conversations that suddenly sounded suspicious, moments of um harmless courtly flirtation and dates that modern historians have since shown were often impossible. Yeah. But none of that mattered in 1536. Of course not. The verdict had little to do with proving guilt beh beyond a reasonable doubt.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

They just wanted to prove what's the word I'm looking for. Just anything. They don't want to prove anything, actually. They just wanted to put doubt in the minds of the people. Now I have to sneeze. Excuse me. Gazund tight. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

Does your ear hurt?

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

I'm warm.

SPEAKER_04 55:40

Oh. Your ears are sweating.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

So tutor trials, especially those involving accusations of treason, weren't designed like today.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_04 55:52

The accused weren't represented by defense attorneys. They couldn't call witnesses in the modern sense. And once the king had made his feelings known, very few juries were eager to disagree.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Well, why would they disagree with the king? Because then all of a sudden, which or you know, I just pick a word, but yeah, you know, it's like, um, I want to try that person next. Yeah. Because they disagreed with me.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

Yeah. So Mark Smeaton found guilty. Henry Norris found guilty. Francis Weston found guilty. William Brereton found guilty.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

George Boleyn.

SPEAKER_04 56:26

The men were condemned to be hanged, drawn, and quartered. And quartered. Which I just that seems like a punishment for traitors. It was one of the most brutal expeditious. Execu executions. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

That was a rough. That was really rough.

SPEAKER_04 56:49

I've got the word right in front of me. Yeah, you do. It was one of the most brutal executions imaginable. Yeah. A condemned man would be dragged through the streets to the place of execution, hanged until nearly dead, cut down while still alive, disemboweled, and finally divided into four parts.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Fortunately for the four men, Henry VIII later commuted that sentence to a simple beheading. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Because what the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Yeah. Three days later, on May 15th, Anne Boleyn and George Berlin faced trial inside the Tower of London. Anne's trial was held before a jury of 26 peers.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Okay. Peers of the king.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

Yeah. Provided over by none other than her own uncle by marriage, Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk. Anne defended herself with remarkable composure. Contemporary accounts suggested she answered each accusation directly, challenged the evidence where she could, and denied it every allegation of adultery, treason, and incest. Even some people who disliked Anne admitted she conducted herself with dignity. George Bolyn was equally impressive. Several witnesses later remarked on his intelligence and confidence as he dismantled many of the accusations against him. Sure. He reportedly pointed out inconsistencies in the prosecution's case and questioned how some of the alleged meanings could have happened at all.

SPEAKER_00 58:21

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Didn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 58:24

The verdict was most certain before the trial even began.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

And that's the shitty thing. It's like, why have this farce farce of a trial?

SPEAKER_04 58:34

Or appearances.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

If you're I mean, you're obviously you're going through the motions, is mo mostly what it is. Yeah. But you know damn well what the fucking outcome's gonna be. So why go through it all? It makes no sense. It you're just literally wasting people's time. A little warmer.

SPEAKER_04 58:56

Yeah, it's warm.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

I got I got my Mexican lager, and it's yeah, I think it needs to be colder.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Yeah, it does. My uh IPA is good, but same, same, same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:07

Okay, so both Anne and George were found guilty. Of course they were. Anne received the same sentence as the men, though, be because she was queen, it would ultimately be modified.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:18

She was condemned either to be burned alive or beheaded at the king's pleasure. Henry later wrote chose beheading, and he ordered that a skilled French swordsman be brought from Calais, which is like a town that's on the very tippy top part of France, right on the English Channel.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

Rap and they would bring in the skilled Frenchman rather than using a traditional English axe. Did you know all this? I did, yes. Okay, cool. So whether that was an act of mercy or just an effort to make the execution cleaner, we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Yeah, I think it was a weird act of mercy. Maybe. Honestly.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

After the verdicts were announced, the prisoners were returned out of their cells to await execution. Those final days, I'm sure, were horrendous.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

I mean, hey, uh, it's Tuesday. I got four days left. Yes. So can't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Henry Norris remained steadfast. He never confessed. Good for him. Not once. He always maintained that he was innocent. Francis Weston also denied the accusations to the very end. William Brereton, according to contemporary reports, seemed almost stunned by the speed of everything. Um, he had spent years serving the king, found himself condemned before he even like really understood what was happening. Right. Mark Smeaton never withdrew his confession.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Which is sad.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

Um, whether that was because it was true, because he feared changing his story would make matters worse, or because he can his confession had never been freely given in the first place, yeah, is something that historians will probably never know.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

I'm guessing it wasn't freely given. I think it was fabricated and they put his name on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

I could be wrong. Again, I wasn't there. Yeah, but that's what it seems like to me. And that's why he never withdrew it, because he never even did it in the first place.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:14

Yeah. His silence was has remained one of the many mis, like one of the enduring

Executions And The Legacy Of Scapegoats

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

mysteries of Anne Boleyn's downfall. Right. So then came the morning of May 17th. One by one, the five five men climbed the scaffold on Tower Hill. As was customary, each was given an opportunity to address the crowd.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

None of them openly accused the king. Um, publicly criticizing Henry VIII, even in your final moments, would have placed your family in danger. Sure. So instead, each man, and maybe that's why Smeaton never said anything, because he's like, I got extended family or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

But he didn't, that was part of the reason why they picked him, is because he had no immediate. If I was him, I'd be like, fuck you, Henry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

So instead, each man um acknowledged the justice of the law in a traditional manner. Henry Norris spoke first. According to contemporary accounts, he declared that he died, quote, in the faith of the Holy Church, and insisted that he had all always been loyal to the king. Francis Weston asked those gathered to pray for him. William Brereton's speech was brief. Records didn't say what he had said. Mark Smeaton, whose confession had helped unravel the case, reportedly admitted that he deserved death, though historians still debate exactly what he meant by those words. Was he accepting guilt, accepting his fate, simply following the expected script of a condemned prisoner? We don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Hard to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:56

Finally, George Boleyn stepped forward. Those who witnessed his execution remarked that he spoke eloquently, as he always had.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Well, because he was an eloquent speaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

He was. He admitted that he had been a sinner, like all men, but never publicly confessed to the crimes for which he had been condemned. Instead, he encouraged those watching to learn from his fate and to place their trust in God. Then, one after another, the executioner did his work. By the end of the morning, every man accused of being Anne Boleyn's lover was dead. And only Anne remained, and we all know what happened to her. Oh, do tell. She also died.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

Anne's fate had probably been decided long before anyone accused her of adultery. Of course. As for the five men who died beside her, he they history wasn't hasn't really been kind to their memories.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

No, which is sad.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

Mark Smeaton remains the mis mis musician who confessed. Henry Norris became little more than a name in a list of tutor executions, despite having been a very close companion. Francis Weston was remembered only only as another alleged lover of the Queen, even though he left behind a widow and a child. William Brereton became an obscure political footnote, his remarkable career overshadowed by accusations. Many feel were fabricated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Well, they all were.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

George Boleyn was reduced to the brother accused of incest, despite the fact that evidence against him was not there. Yeah. Today, most historians believe the prosecutions were driven less by the evidence than by political necessity.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Anne had failed to produce an heir that Henry desperately wanted. His attention shifted to Jane Seymour. His relationship with Anne had deteriorated. Thomas Cromwell and Anne had become political rivals, and once Anne decided the second marriage was over, removing Anne wasn't enough. The accusations had to be believable. Right. If England's queen had simply been discarded because the queen wanted the king wanted someone else, it would have raised uncomfortable questions about Henry's judgment and legitimacy.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

Well, especially because of what he went through to get to get Anne. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:15

But if she had committed adultery, if she betrayed both her husband and the kingdom, then her removal was justified. Correct, yeah. And the five men became essential to that story.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

I mean, don't you think by like wife five they would have started questioning who the fucking problem is? Yeah. Seriously. There's one constant. All these other ladies. Henry, what the fuck's going on here, buddy?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:40

So within less than three weeks, one queen and five men went from being some of the most privileged people in England to condemned prisoners waiting to be executed. Their trials changed the course of English history. Their deaths cleared the way for Henry VIII's third marriage. And while Anne Boleyn's name has been around through throughout history for nearly 500 years, it's worth remembering that she did not be executed. She wasn't executed alone. No, not at all. Five other lives ended because the king had decided the story needed villains. Yep. Whether they actually were is a question that history is still trying to answer. That is the five men who died alongside Ann Boleyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

The problem is history will never be ever to answer that because we can't go back in time.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

We can't witness all these accusations and or things or whatever. So it's unfortunate for those five people. This is your fucking legacy.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Which I guess you could

Outro And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

argue they have a legacy. Welp.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Alright, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:03

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at History Buffoons Podcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:29

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SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:38

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.