Know Your Role: H.A. and Margaret Rey

Welcome To The Podloft

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Oh, hey there. Hi. Did you know? Yes. Oh, I mean, my name's Kate.

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And I'm Bradley.

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This is History Buffoons. Welcome. Did you know that it is the end of May?

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Close to, yes. And it is very warm. Oh my gosh.

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Out up here. We're in the podloft again.

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Yes.

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Because it made sense for us for this weekend.

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And we have a visitor.

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We do have a visitor. Can I pick you up, Miss? Miss Pickles. Pickles Pickles.

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What is what is going on here?

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Will you share the quick name of Pickles Pickles?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So this is pickles pickles. If anyone And she's lovey. She is lovey. She's actually when it's just herself, she is super lovey.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah. Um you will go girl.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

If anyone has watched Robot Chicken, specifically the Star Wars episodes, there is a there's a particular, I don't remember which one it is, because I think there's three of them. I don't remember which episode, but there's a yo mama battle between Luke and the Emperor. And I'm pretty sure it's Luke who says, Yo Mom is so stupid, she thought Jar Jar came with pickles pickles. So that is literally how pickles got her name. So her name is Pickles Pickles Acres.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

So yeah, yeah. That's so cute. She's very sweet. She is being quarantined.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Only because our young cat Sal thought it'd be fun. Not just this once. He's done it multiple times, but he goes after her for some reason. He bullies her. He bullies her, and he got his claw stuck in her ear and ripped it. Ouch. So we put her up here in the podloft slash servants quarters for some quarantine time. And I think she's been fucking enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, she seems to be really happy up here. Yeah. So she's like, I got my own apartment.

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This is amazing.

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I got my food. I got my potty.

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They feed me up here. This is great.

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I got people to snuggle with.

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Yep. Well, yeah, so she she's been living her best life, I think, because of being on her own.

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Yeah, being isolated.

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All

Drinks And Today’s Story Setup

SPEAKER_00 2:33

right. So before we get the drinks, what do we got?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

We are going to talk about um HA Ray and his wife, Margaret Ray of Germany.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Um, they fled Germany right before the Nazis came and they um they um created um a book that kind of changed their lives. Sure, sure, sure. That's what we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

All right, so we'll start with you. Those motorcycles are allowed.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Oh, by the way, yeah, um, I am wearing no facial makeup today because I have been overcome with allergies.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Overcome with allergies, and the amount of watery eyes and sniffly nose and sneezing, it didn't make sense for me today, so that's why I look like death. But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Alright, well, with that being said, I also don't have any makeup on.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Oh, you just I normally never do.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah. Because what the fuck? I didn't shave, I guess, or cut my hair.

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So what am I drinking?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Because manganata.

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Mangonata modello.

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It's also 8% suprema.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I have had this, I like it. She tried the tropical one that I've also had, uh, which I like. She's like, eh. So I don't expect her to like this.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So it says it's mango raw, um, mango manganata, yes, flavored with the refreshing flavors of mango and chamoy, which I don't even know what chamois is.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I've heard of chamoy. I I couldn't tell you what it is though.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

But but it's very cold, and I'm excited to try it. What do you got?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

I have two different newer Sierra torpedoes. So I have a Rye torpedo. Uh over there. Uh Rye IPA, 6.2% a dual torpedo. Double dry hopped, it's a dipa. Oh damn, 8.2.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

So do you know what a dipa is? It's a double dry hopped IPA. Oh double.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

No, that makes sense. DIPA. D D IPA. Dippa. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

It's like Dippa Lipa. Wait, no, that's Dual Lipa. She's a singer. Oh. Anyways, so which one should I try first?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

The other one. The rye. I want you to try the ra.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

A while back, Sierra Nevada came out with um a rye. It was so good.

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What went a rye?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I don't know. Apparently sales, because they just got rid of it. That's what went awry. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Oh, cheers.

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Um, to the history buffoons. And pickle spigles. And pickle spigles. She's like, I just I just take a nap here.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Ooh, that's good. I don't think Sierra Nevada can fuck shit up though.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Oh my gosh. It's like getting to me right back here where the sour patches go. Yeah. That's where my sour patch lives.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

So just to give you some context, she swallowed a sour patch kit a long time ago and it's just living in her throat. I mean, what the fuck? Jesus. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Okay. So sometimes I get my story ideas from Pinterest.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah.

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And this is where this story came comes from.

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Is this the Xavier?

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Yes.

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Do we want to say that? Or should we?

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Yes, Xavier. I was finishing my story this morning at their table. And Xavier, who is seven, seven and a half, he is reading really well.

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He reads very well.

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And he comes up behind me and he starts reading over my shoulder. Now, what he's reading doesn't mean anything for what he was reading.

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Yep.

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And I was like, oh man, he's gonna start reading. So I was looking up the sources for my story today so that it can go on our website for you all.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Yeah.

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And I found a video. Um, it's a fantastic video on Tubi. Tubi. Yes. And so I went to the Tubi website and I'm looking for the link for this story. Right. And he said something about look at all those, because it's all images of these movies, right? Look at all those pictures. Look at all those animals and da da. And I was like, oh, it's a secret. Don't say anything. And maybe a couple of minutes went by and I didn't find what I was looking for on Tubi. And I went somewhere else and then came back. And I was like, oh, it was on Tubi. Here it is. And he goes, What? And I he said the name of my story. And I'm like, because Bradley was sitting right there.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Which, as anyone who's listened to this knows, I don't know the story going into this. Very rarely do I, or should I like the pre preakness? I did, whatever. But normally I don't know what the hell Kate's gonna talk about. So when my son is like, Oh, is you you're talking about this?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I was like, Yeah, it's like, well, there goes my story. Well, no, well, there goes my the the slow reveal, the surprise, yeah.

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But I'm sure I'll still enjoy it. But I'm like, Xavier, if someone tells you it's a secret, it's not funny, cool, whatever, to then just blurt it out. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I'm not sure he understood because there was there was some there was a few minutes in between me telling him and him saying it. I wonder if he just didn't put two and two together. It's it's fine, it's fine, but um, so you kind of know approximately what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I know what the end game is, I don't know the the journey, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Okay, so we're gonna go to Germany.

Hans Finds His Path

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Um, so this guy, his name is Hans Augusto Um Reyersbach. Reyersbach, okay, and eventually he goes by H A Ray, but I'm just gonna call him Hans pretty much throughout.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Is it the H A and R A Y?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

R-E-Y. R-E-Y, okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

He spent much of his early life drawing instead of paying attention to whatever was going on around him. Sure. Um, teacher saw a student who was um distracted, bored in school.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

See, the problem I have with that is in her in her vision, maybe that's what she sees. But instead of just being, I don't know, a decent human being, they're probably like, oh, this kid can't do this because he's distracting, blah, but like, well, what's distracting him? What is he doing? What what what is like creating this? Instead, they just go full-on stupid see you next Tuesday mode and be like, just like my third grade teacher, fuck Mrs. Sheeley. I don't know what her name is. She's probably dead. Sad, I guess, but it's like, I don't know, maybe dig deeper, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Well, he loved his sketchbook, and he thought that classrooms were interrupting his drawing time. Well, they because they were. So he attended a private boy school, um, but formal education never really suited him. Sure. He was exceptionally intelligent, which is probably why he was so bored. He was too smart.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Typically, that's a lot a lot of the cases, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah. Um, he spoke several languages.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Mm-hmm. And absorbed information really quickly. Okay. Um, but traditional schooling um frustrated him because his he constantly wandered in his head. Sure. So his notebooks were filled with drawings while other students tried to survive these lessons and discipline. Hans was usually building worlds in his mind.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

And I feel like I already need a tissue and I didn't bring any with me.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

You didn't bring him with? No. Well, that seems like a terrible, terrible idea. Rutro. Hold please, while Kate gets her her her nose collectors. I don't know what to call them. And we're back.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

So Hans was usually somewhere else in his head, right? Building worlds. Well, then history decided to change.

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World War II.

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World War I. Oh, one. Yes, we're in 1914. He is 16 years old. Right. World War I erupted across Europe. At 18, so two years into the war, he was drafted into the German army.

SPEAKER_04 11:24

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Now, despite war surrounding him, Hans had originally hoped to become a doctor. And he eventually served as um a medical unit rather than like combat roles.

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Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Um, but even there, his instincts towards observation or his his interests were more towards observation and artistry more than soldiering.

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Sure.

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And at one point, Hans reportedly summarized himself with a line that perfectly captured who he was. Okay. He said, quote, I did better with my pencil than I did my rifle. End quote.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, I mean, a lot of some people just aren't design meant for for whatever you want to call it, yeah, to be call them infantry, I guess, because more or less that's what they are. So I mean, at least he recognized, and luckily other people did too, instead of forcing him into a role that doesn't make sense for him, basically. So okay.

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Um, the war years exposed him to suffering and chaos, rigid military structure, yet he continued um drifting towards creativity whenever he could.

Redrawing The Night Sky

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Sure.

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After the war, one of the more unusual directions his mind followed was astronomy. Um, he was interested in celestial cartography. Do you know what cartography is?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Map making.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yes, exactly. So most people accepted the traditional star charts. Hans looked at the stars and thought that the drawings were absurd.

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Hans is like, what are you looking at here?

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

This makes no effing sense.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, and that's exactly right. The constellations he felt rarely resembled the things that they were named after.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

The whale didn't look like the whale or whatever the or Orion or whatever. So is there a whale? Apparently there's a whale. There's a whale constellation? I think so. I mean, I know like Leo and Scorpio and those are the horoscope. Zodiac. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

But they're constellations. I'm not talking about Zodiac, which is a bunch of fucking shit.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I know, but like, yes, there's lots of different constellations that are not also zodiac.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Leo Leo isn't a what which one what zodiac is that then?

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Leo.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Isn't that right?

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Does it cover something particular? Like a month or something? I mean.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Oh, probably. I don't know. I don't know a stro astrology.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Nobody does because it's dumb.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I all I know is I'm a cancer crab.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah, you are. Holy shit. I'm a Libra. Balance my scales, bitch. Fuck. I I don't know because I don't follow that node. Yeah, I don't either. Anyone who's like, oh, and Mars is in third retrograde behind blah blah blah. It's like, go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Do you know what retrograde actually is?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

No.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

It's when I believe, don't quote me on this, but I believe it's when Mars spins so fast it looks like it's going backwards.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Really? We'll have to look into that one.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Okay.

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Anyways. So Hans decided to redraw the stars in a way that ordinary parry ordinary people could actually recognize them.

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Sure.

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Rather than treating astronomy like an intimidating science for experts, he approached it more visually and artistically.

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Okay.

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He redesigned the diagrams so they looked clearer and more natural to the human eye. Years later, he actually published a book called The Stars, A New Way to See Them.

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Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

So Hans would actually invite children outside at night. He would set up a st a telescope and personally guide them through the constellations. He taught them how to find shapes in the darkness, how to connect the stars. That's kind of cool. Yeah. Um, his imagination never grew out of like childhood. It was just how he understood the world.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

It's just, would you say he was curious? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I mean, it's it's nice that some people's imagination never leaves that because like I'll look at my son and my daughter and be like, fuck, I'm I miss like being creative. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, can I be creative? Sure, I guess, but the imagination you had when you were a kid was just infinite.

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Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

And when you become an adult, get beaten down by day-to-day normal bullshit. Fuck, it sucks, because it's like man, look at them. Like, yeah, Vesper will be sitting there and be like, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. It's like, what are you even coming up with? But it's awesome. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

She said the word loop-de-loop. She did today. Loop-de-loop. Where did you come up with that?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

She she's smart.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So Bradley's question was curious. Isn't Easter egg? So let's continue.

Margaret’s Sharp Edges And Drive

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Anywho's Margaret Elizabeth Waldstein.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Waldstein?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

She shortened her name to Margaret, which with with fewer letters than Margaret. I don't know why, but she shortened how to spell Margaret.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Less German? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

I don't know. It was spelled M-A-R-G-A-R-E-T-E.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Marguerite, maybe.

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Margaret. Marguerite would make more. Maybe.

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And then she shortened her name to Margaret. M-A-R-G-E.

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My first girlfriend in fourth grade was named Margaret.

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I'm sure that was a great first relationship.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Fourth grade. Because we were in fourth grade. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

So she was born into an upper class German family that was really comfortable, political, connection, uh, connected and heavily structured.

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Okay.

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Her father was a lawyer and a member of parliament, and the household reflected that status.

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Okay.

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There were five children in the home and four servants helping manage it, which meant Margaret grew up surrounded by expectation, sure, rules, comparisons, and constant family dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Four servants. Servants to five kids. God damn, that's wealth. All right.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

So one story followed Margaret for the rest of her life, and she never forgot it. According to family accounts, she was considered the quote unquote healthiest looking of the siblings.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Because of that, she was denied butter at the meals while the other children received it. What? The reasoning was essentially that the other children needed it more, and Margaret was bitter up until the day she died.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

I mean, can you blame her?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

It's butter.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I just want a butter my bread. No butter for you.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So wait.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

I assume it's more than just butter that she got denied.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

That was the one thing that she brought up. So I saw an interview with her, and that was just the one thing that she mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

I get that, but man.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

But people still remembered her like bringing it up with genuine irritation throughout her life.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yep. Not surprised.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

So growing up, she also struggled against being compared to her siblings and pushed hard against expectations. Right. Um, she did not seem particularly interested in behaving delicately or quietly because society expected it.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Um, Margaret could be what you would call difficult.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Oh, so like female.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Hey, what? Be nice.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

I'm joking.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

She was known for being intensely blunt.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Sometimes to the level that like startled people.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, caught them off guard and like, wait, what, what?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah. So if she del disliked something, she said it. Sure. Um, friends and acquaintances um described moments where she would say things like, I don't like children, or you're fat.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Excuse me. Damn. Um it's really warm where we are. It's so warm in here, and I don't like it. I don't like it. Um shut down.

A 24 Hour Pause And Reset

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And we're back on a different day. A whole 24 hours later. Recording the same story where we left off. So because Kate likes to not uh to say that we don't like to edit stuff out.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Kate's not feeling well.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah. Um, so last night we got really, really warm. Oh my god, it was so we just like okay, let's stop because we aren't gonna like our product, and we'll just stop and and do it today. And today I ended up getting sick.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

So here we are, uh well over 24 hours later.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Finishing our story. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Um, this will be fun because I've been in my PJs all day.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

She's she's basically so the podloft for for full transparency here, is it's a little sitting room. I have a TV. We call it the podloft because it's where we record when we're here. But also part of the podloft area is a half bath and uh guest bedroom. So Kate has literally been staying in the guest bedroom quarantined all freaking day. Yeah, I have ran her up a couple popsicles.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

And uh, according to her, the best popsicle she's ever had.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

And I am back onto my beer. She is not drinking no.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

I've got uh I've got berry frost pediolite of some sort, and it's it's good. Um, it it'll do the job, it'll do. Um, but was it pediolite popsicles?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

No.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

What kind of popsicles were they? Regular popsicles, really, because they were so delicious. Oh my gosh. Because, like, I can't keep water down, no liquids down.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Been part of Issue throughout the day.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah, and so the popsicles like saved me and they were so delicious.

unknown 22:06

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

I'm just glad we had I have this area in my house where we could kind of just let you rest and do your thing. So yeah. It's kind of screwed up your weekend, but whatever. I mean, you didn't intend to not feel good. So here we are gonna try and finish this episode before she has to use the trash can from the bathroom again.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah. It's been my trusty friend all day.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Like she said, we don't edit stuff out.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Okay, so now if you recall with Margaret Ray. I don't. Margaret Ray Um was pretty blunt and she was kind of difficult. She was a difficult woman.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Um, if she disliked something, she said it.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Right. So she would say things like, I don't like children. Or you're fat.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Like just straight out. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

This is my opinion, and I'm not gonna be afraid to say it. I'm not gonna hold it back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

All right.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

And she was also pretty impatient in public. Um, she said that there was one story, actually, it was probably like a friend that said the story. Sure. Um, described her standing in a line at the post office. The line was so long, and she was there for so long. She literally stepped out of line and yelled throughout the post office, why is no one working here? What are my tax dollars going to? Only in you know, German yelling.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Oh, that that would sound way scarier.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Probably.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Oh, and we still do have uh a guest. Well, yes, Miss Pickles. She uh has been taking care of uh Kate all day. She has. Oh, there you are.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

So she had very little filter, Miss Margaret.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Okay, but sounds that way.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

But underneath her bluntness and her sharpness, she was a highly intelligent woman. Sure. Um, so somehow her story ends up crossing with Hans.

Germany’s Chaos And A Bold Plan

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Their first meeting. Yeah, gonna pick up pickles.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

She okay. Can you see her?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah, her head, yeah, and her tail.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Where were you? What are you doing, Pickles?

SPEAKER_01 24:19

I was like, okay, that wasn't gonna that wasn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Don't step on buttons.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So um the first meeting between Margaret and Hans was when Hans was actually dating Margaret's sister Mary.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Oh, it's one of those stories.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Uh-huh. He had camp come to the family house to visit, and he was likely expecting an entirely normal social call, you know, this young lad courting this woman, you know. And he sees in the in the entryway Margaret butt-end coming down the banister, like sliding down the banister, and that's how they met. So she was young. Um Margaret was Margaret was nine years younger, and I think um, so she was probably in like middle school.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Oh, gross. What? How old was the was Hans?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Hans is nine years older, but they don't they don't get together at this point.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I get that, but why is he like, oh hey?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Oh, he wasn't like oh hey.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

You you you're you're setting it up like that's what it was.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

No, that's just how they met. Oh, so it was just her sliding down this banister as he's there visiting his girlfriend. He's like, oh, that's uh your sister, cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

But isn't it kind of weird? It's like, I'm gonna date your sister for a while. You're next. It wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

What the fuck? It wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

All right, thank god. That was gross otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

It would it would take um several, several many more years before they would encounter each other again.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

So, what happened to Hans and her sister?

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Oh, you know, young love, they broke up. So actually, um, her sister does come back around, so I'll get there. Okay. After World War I, um, the Weimar Republic um was economically shattered. Sure. The country faced inflation, political um instability, and unemployment, and a sense that normal life had just completely been knocked out off balance, right?

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So for many young Germans, the future was very uncertain. So for Hans, it was almost impossible to pin down. I almost said impissable. Impossible to pin down.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Impiscible to pin down. That might be a title candidate. It won't be because we're not putting piss in our fucking title. But it's funny nonetheless.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

He spent years drifting through unstable work, trying to figure out where he belonged. Um, he was talented, he was intelligent, he was artistic, multilingual, as I said.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

I was gonna say, this sounds a lot like me until you got to the talented and other good attributes. Yeah. Definitely not a multilinguist.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

But instability during the chaos of post-war Germany, he eventually left.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

In 1925, Hans moved to Rio de Janeiro.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

That's where every I know, like one goes.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Post-war Germany, everybody goes to Rio.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Well, I mean, a lot of Nazis did flee to the South America, so I did hear that. There's a there's like apparently, and again, this is all just stuff I've heard. I've never investigated. There's a town, and uh I'm not exactly sure where, but they literally have an Oktoberfest every year. They speak German, they're all white, weird. So I mean cool German, am I right?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Right, y'all, y'all nine. So Hans's sister had married a businessman there, and the family connection offered him like an opportunity to start over.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Where the hell did she meet a businessman from Rio de Janeiro? I mean, that is just wild.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Where did she meet him and then they ended up at Rio? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

I guess I didn't look into it. I get that's a possibility, but like in 1925, or thereabouts when she met him. But um I don't know, it just Germany, Rio de Janeiro.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Okay. So Hans worked for his brother-in-law's business, which imported bath fixtures.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

That's a wild ex import, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yes, there was like a rumor that went about, and Margaret in this documentary that I listened to, um, she mentioned that I'm not sure where this rumor came from, but I don't think it's true. Like she wasn't even like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

But supposedly Han spent time traveling through parts of South South America on the Amazon, literally selling bath fixtures like throughout the Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

That seems on the river. Unlikely.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

And and she didn't like question it. She well, she didn't say like, yeah, that was true, or no, that was wrong. It was just she was just like, it was kind of unlikely.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Like but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Wouldn't he have told you if that was true?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

I feel like uh Do you need a new uh bath bathroom sink? Right. Or faucet or whatever. It's like I got you, indigenous person, right. In the Amazon. It's in my canoe. Do you do you know what a bathroom faucet is? I mean, again, we're talking like the mid-1920s. That just seems unfucking likely.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah, but what he actually did was probably bookkeeping. A lot less fun, but I mean but while he was in Rio, he was fascinated by the wildlife.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

What was he?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Fascinated.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

There it is. Fascinated.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I'm sick. He sketched constantly of his surroundings. He observed animals and landscapes and tropical environments that were entirely different from what he grew up with in Europe, right? So while Hans was reinventing himself in South America, Margaret was trying to find out what she could do in Germany. At one point.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

So they were wait, is this when they were already together? No. I didn't think so. Okay. All right. Nope. Clarification of that.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

They met on the banister of the stairs. And then many years have passed.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

A wheelass.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

So um so at one point, Margaret stepped away from her studies for about a year and attended what was essentially like an artistic retreat in the mountains. Um, someplace you would probably love.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I say that's that's just sounds beautiful, right now. And she loved it.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

She spent her time hiking and skiing and painting and walking through nature. And for the first time, she felt like really open, life felt open-ended, you know. But eventually it was only a year-long program. She had to return to Hamburg, and that really crushed her. So by the late 1920s and early 1930s, Germany was still deeply unstable nearly a decade after World War I.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And they're ramping up for Brown Two. WW2.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

So that sounds like hit up with the chair.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

You know, like WWE. I get it.

Nazis Rising And Jobs Disappear

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Okay. I don't know if I like it, but I get it.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

So um, again, economic collapse, emplo unemployment, um, extremism, socialism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

I mean, that's pretty much because that's what people are like for some reason fighting for in the states today, which is fucking dumb.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

But okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

So then came Mr. Hitler. As the Nazi Party gained power, Germany rapidly became more hostile, right, more nationalistic, more dangerous, especially for Jewish citizens like Margaret and her family.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

So during this period, Margaret bounced between jobs before eventually eventually finding work at an advertising agency. Oh. And that suited her personality and skills far better than anything she had expected.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

So she understood marketing, she understood the language, and she understood how to sell ideas. But around 1933 or 34, as anti-Jewish laws and Aryan employment restrictions began, um, Margaret ended up losing her job because she was Jewish.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

So Yeah, they didn't have DEI back then.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

No. Around this same time, she started hearing updates about Hans through family connections and social circles.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Okay. Apparently, she's oh, he's in Brazil working for this brother-in-law as a bookkeeper. Margaret thought this was ridiculous. Remember her strong-headedness. That's ridiculous. He she viewed this as a loss of talent. She knew that he was. Yeah. And excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Well, sometimes you have to go where the work is. Yeah. And he had an opportunity. Was it an ideal opportunity for him? No. But it was still an opportunity, and he could make some money.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah. She's like, this is stupid. He's balancing books in South America.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

I get that, but someone's got to balance books. I mean, they're not going to balance themselves.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

At one point, she reportedly told her mother that Hans was a damned fool for wasting his abilities.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Then she made the decision that sounds impulsive as F. If. Margaret announced, quote, I'm going to Brazil and marry him, end quote. Just like that. I'm gonna go to Brazil and marry him.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So they haven't seen each other in Yoz. Years. She saw him when she was in like middle schoolish.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

What what? She's strong-headed.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

And apparently a fool. I mean, it works out for her, obviously, but it's just like who in their right mind would do that? Like I oh that that'd be like me saying, pick pick someone I knew in high school that I might have had a crush on or something. Or or whatever. Whatever, yeah. Whatever the situation. Not even a crush. Like she was really talented. It's only been 28 years. I'm gonna go marry her. It's like what? And I know the time frame is obviously more drastic for me. But Jesus Christ, that's weird.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

So Hans had no idea of this plan. In 1935, Han received a telegram message telling him to meet her at the docks.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Oh, okay. And he's like, who? Oh, that weird chick going down the banister, I guess. I mean, dated her sister once.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Margaret arrived in Brazil and reportedly announced to him, quote, I'm getting you out of your family's business. And somehow it worked, and that's what they did.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Well, apparently he was more submissive.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Well, Marker also later insisted that their marriage, because they do get married, um, was not built on some romantic love.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

No, it was built on a business.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Yeah, she said that I did not fall in love with Hans. Hans did not fall in love with me. We were just really good friends, and the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Wait, how are they really good friends when they hadn't seen each other in a long time? Are you scared of the other thing?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

I think she's saying that, like, a lot of yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Because I'm like, Yeah, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yeah. So Margaret saw something practical in this partnership. She understood business, she understood advertising, and Hans understood art and illustration. And together they made sense. And I will get to why. They married in Brazil and soon traveled to Paris for their honeymoon. The original plan was to stay for four weeks.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I'd say that that seems like a little dicey time to go, but all right.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah. Their original plan was to stay for four weeks. They ended up staying for four years.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Oh. Until the war. They just really liked it. Michael Paris, am I right? Paris. Eifeful tower. It's got an elevator. Stadium. Restaurant at set.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

So while living in Paris, Hans never stopped sketching.

Paris, Publishing, And Baby Fifi

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Even when w money was tight and Europe was increasingly unstable. Hans constantly filled pages with drawings of animals, particularly giraffes and monkeys, inspired both by the wildlife that he saw in Brazil and the energy of the life that was happening around him in Paris.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Do you have giraffes in Brazil?

SPEAKER_01 37:08

You know, there are like zoos? There are like 16 different species. Maybe not quite that high. There's like 10 different species. Yeah, don't. Maybe like eight different species of giraffe.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Don't make shit up. There's more than five. Just say there's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

There's a there's quite a few. There's more than one handful.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

But so at least six.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yes, at least six. So no, there's more.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Either way. Yeah, that's what at least six implies.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Anyways. There's giraffes in Brazil?

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah. Are you No, I have no idea. I have no idea. But there are many a different type of giraffe.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Maybe our uh maybe our title should be Giraffes in Brazil? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So anyways. I lost my spot.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Well, that traps.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

So some of those drawings eventually became cartoons for a French newspaper, and they stood out because Hans has a way of making these animals feel really expressive and full of personality. Okay. A publisher noticed the work and approached the Rays with a simple question: could these characters become a children's book?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Well, always could.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah. Yes, immediately. They needed the opportunity, they needed the money. So together, Hans and Margaret Ray created Cecily G and the Nine Monkeys. And Cecily is a giraffe.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Cecily G and the Nine Monkeys.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Sounds like a great tale of I don't know what I'm gonna say there. Never mind. Let's move on. I got another.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

So their working relationship settled naturally into these clear roles. Margaret handled the writing and the structure while Hans did the illustrations.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Oh, so she actually wrote the books and then he would just draw them. Yep. Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Um, so Hans did try to also write.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

And she's like, nah.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, pretty much. She edited a lot.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Know your role.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Maybe that's it. Know your role. I mean, I I mean, at least she had the the the foresight or whatever you want to call it to be like, no, yeah, no. I I know what you're good at, and I definitely know what I'm better at. Uh-huh. And you are not gonna be writing. I will I will do that. That's pretty funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

So the book was successful enough that the publisher quickly asked for another. Um, looking back at the story that they had just created, the Rays became interested in one small baby monkey from Cecily G and the Nine Monkeys named Fifi.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Fifi.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

And he appeared near like the end of the book, but he was the baby monkey.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

So at the time, Fifi was an energetic little character who stood out uh from the others because of mischief. Um, one of the stranger and more amusing details from this period was that Margaret would sometimes physically pose and model expressions for Hans while he drew Fifi. So she'd get on like the ground and put herself in positions that Hans wanted to draw.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

How ugly was Margaret? I'm joking. I'm joking. I mean, it's funny because even along that same line, when um Walt Disney used used to like have people dress up as the character and would sketch them and facial features and stuff and whatever, something like that. I don't know. I'll remember all the details, but it's been going on for a long time, even though it was a cartoon or a drawing or a comic strip or whatever. Um they still based it off of human like facial features and emotions and such and whatever. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

So basically, her personality and her body language are a part of Fifi.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

So Fi Fi, Fo Fo.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Fifi was um reflected um the two worlds that kind of help shape the ray's life. So part of the character came from the tropical wildlife that Hans had encountered it um in Brazil, while um part came from like the movement and chaos and personality of like Paris and Margaret.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Of course, yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

But again, while they're building stories together, Europe has different

War Arrives And Fear Spreads

SPEAKER_01 41:27

plans.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Well, it's fallen apart.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

In 1939, World War II officially began when Britain and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

So suddenly the race found themselves in an incredibly dangerous and complicated position.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Most definitely.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

They were German-born Jews living in France while traveling under Brazilian passports.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Why did she have a Brazilian passport?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Because they lived down there for a while.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

It's also a lot of passports.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

What?

SPEAKER_00 41:59

A Brazilian passport? Stop it. Jeez. It's a lot of passports. You're so punny. I'm so punny. It's red neck all lost. So as wait, she what do you mean she lived down there for a while? She lived in Brazil with him for a while. But I just thought she went there to get married. They got married and then went to France and lived there for four years. How long did they have she lived there?

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Okay, I didn't look that up.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

She's f she's traveling under a false passport?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Maybe they maybe they courted for a while before they got married.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Doesn't sound like it from Margaret.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

No, but Mark is pretty hasty.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I didn't look that up.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

I wanted it's okay. Pickles go look that up.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

But I was right in that they went to Paris for their honeymoon.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

So I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yeah. So at the same time, their publisher wanted more books. So contracts were signed for additional work scheduled for publication in 1940, including another Fifi story. And hoping perhaps to escape some of the growing tensions surrounding Paris, the Rays moved to Normandy in April of 1940.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

I feel like that's even worse. But I don't know why I feel that way. I mean, we stormed those beaches.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

It's named after a Viking guy.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Then on May 10th of 1940, Germany invaded France. The atmosphere changed immediately. Panic spread quickly. Refugees crowded roads and train stations, and suspicion towards foreigners intensified everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

So despite being Jewish Jewish refugees themselves, the rays were still viewed by many through the lens of their German origins.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Um, at one point, French police reportedly warned them that they could not guarantee their safety and advised them to return to Paris.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

So when the Rays arrived at a train station, Station attempting to leave, authorities stopped them and began searching their luggage.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

The inspection, according to Margaret, dragged on for hours. I'm not understanding why.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

But suitcase after suitcase was opened, and um finally the officials reached this last suitcase. Inside were the manuscripts, the sketches, the illustrations from the children's books that they had been creating. Yeah. According to Margaret, the entire mood shifted once the officer saw the artwork.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Did they recognize it because of the other book or something?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

I don't think there was any recognition. I think there was awe, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Like, oh shit, you guys created this?

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. Yeah. And they were let go and allowed to go on the train immediately.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Oh, artists. Let them be.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah, exactly. Like that's weird. Isn't that cool though? Um I mean. But um years later, Margaret said, quote, Fifi saved us that day.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

So by the summer of 1940, yeah in France um deteriorating, yeah. German forces were advancing through the northern parts of the country, and huge waves of refugees began pouring towards Paris, trying to stay ahead of the invasion. Right. Roads became uh crowded, train stations overwhelmed, entire cities were filled with people attempting to make impossible decisions in very little time to consider. In the middle of the chaos, Hans was desperate desperately trying to organize their lives before everything collapsed.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

So he kept diaries during this period, and um he shows that he was basically trying to manage one crisis after another.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Did those diaries survive?

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Um I as far as you know, as far as I know, they did, but I did not look into them.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Most of the information I got was from this one documentary.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Because it was all it was Margaret speaking and then close friends and children and so clearly Margaret outlived.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yes. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

So he spent days going to banks, gathering paperwork, organizing identification documents, attempting to settle affairs before escape became became impossible.

SPEAKER_04 46:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Um, and of course, every task took longer and longer than expected because thousands of other people were trying to do the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Which you can't blame them.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So officers were overcrowded, lines um were endless, bureaucracy moved, bureaucracy moved. I saw that look. It moved painfully slow while war was imminent.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Very quick. Yeah. So then Paris itself came under attack. On June 3rd, 1940, German bombing raids struck the city. And by roughly June 10th or 11th, many uh residents were finally reaching their their point, like, okay, now we need to flee.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

We gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

I can't believe it took that long.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

I was kind of surprised too, but I guess I don't know about war, so well, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Say it again.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

So people began abandoning Paris in enormous numbers.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

The Rays wanted to return eventually to Brazil since they were traveling under Brazilian passports, right? But they faced a major problem. They had no car, the train service had become unreliable or completely unavailable. Right. So Margaret Ray came up

Escaping Paris On Bicycles

SPEAKER_01 47:31

with a solution. Um, she told Hans, go buy us some bicycles. So when Hans went to the store, the only bike that was left at this time was a tandem bike.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

I was gonna say it had to be a tandem.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

It was a tandem bike. Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Was Margaret like, I'm in front, bitch.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Well, the two of them attempted to ride it through Wartime Paris. Oh god. Um, could you imagine? So it's insane. According to later later accounts, the experiment lasted about two minutes. Oh, before report uh Margaret reportedly yelled at Hans to turn around and buy bike parts instead. Forget this tandem bike, go buy some parts.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Okay. So are they gonna do with the parts?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Somewhere in the midst of all this chaos between the tandem bike and the parts that he could figure out, he managed to assemble two functioning bicycles.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

And those bicycles would end up saving their lives. Sure. Around May 14th of 1940, the Rays had also received an advanced payment from their publisher, so apparently that still works. Well, that's good. Yeah. So the payment total totaled uh 23,000 francs.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Um, and that money would ultimately finance their escape from France.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

So 23,000 francs in 1940 was about 39 to 4,000. 40, 4,000.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Thir 3,900?

SPEAKER_01 49:04

3,900 to 4,000 dollars.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

39 to sorry 4,000. I'm like, yeah, that's that's a that's a gap.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

With inflation, it would be about 90 to 100,000.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah. So June 12th, 1940. By that point, Parisians could reportedly hear cannon fire from the advancing front.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

The war was no longer just distant news, it was it was here, and the Rays understood that this was their last chance to leave.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

At around five in the morning, they climbed onto their bicycles and left Paris. Oh, Jesus. As they rode out of the city, military vehicles and tanks were already moving inward towards it.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

On the first day, they traveled 48 kilometers, which is about 30 miles, to the town of Eton.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Eton. Eton. I I believe you. I know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Because I looked up the pronunciation. I still think you're probably getting it wrong, but the following day, they continued another 32 kilometers, which is about 19 miles. That's a lot. Southward along roads that were packed with refugees, abandoned vehicles, frightened civilians, and just the growing evidence of war all around them.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Two days after the the rays left Eton German bombing raids struck the town, killing hundreds of people. Oh dear. About 400 people.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Oh, that's sad.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Are you having troubles here, pickles?

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Pickles is not.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

I don't want this. Do you want to get down? You're the one who are coming over to me.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

He was like, oh she's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

I keep calling her he.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

I because pickles doesn't sound like a female name to me, and I struggle with it.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

I feel like pickles is the ultimate female name. Don't you? You hate pickles. Pickles, pickles. No, I love pickles. She's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

So the food, yes, I hate the food.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Yes. So later, the rays described what the roads looked like during the escape.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

As they pedaled south, they passed endless lines of abandoned and destroyed cars sitting motionless along the roadside. Vehicles had run out of fuel, broken down, become trapped trapped in traffic, and the bicycles allowed to keep the rays moving while others became stranded.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

So at that at night, they often slept in um farm barns alongside animals because there was nowhere else to go.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

Well, sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

The journey was exhausting. It was uncertain, constantly overshadowed by the fear that German forces could reach them at any point.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

How did they get all their luggage with them?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Oh, they packed very, very, very light.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Just mainly their manuscripts and drawings.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

It was in like an ET basket, you know, in the front of the bike.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

I don't think it was.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Well, you never you weren't there.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

So You definitely weren't there. If I wasn't there, you weren't there.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Eventually they arrived in Orleans.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

So like instead of New Orleans, it's Orleans or Orleans. Orleans. Because isn't that that's what New Orleans is named after, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah. So amid enormous crowds of desperate refugees all trying to flee southward, the race somehow miraculously secured places on a train. It feels improbable and impossible, but somehow two artists escaping an invading army on homemade bicycles while carrying children's manuscripts were able to board this train.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Well, I mean, weirder shit has happened, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

So after reaching Orleans and managing to board a train south, the escape was still far from over. France was collapsing rapidly, and thousands of refugees were all trying to move towards countries that remain neutral in the war. So at another station along the route, um, the Rays made um a difficult but necessary decision.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Did they bring their bikes with them on the train?

SPEAKER_01 53:07

I was just that was my next sentence. Oh they sold the bicycles. I was getting a little burp out.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

And hoping it wasn't vomit.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Um, so they ended up selling the bicycles in exchange for train tickets.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Well, I mean, the train's gonna get you further than the bikes will.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Yeah, and they were headed for Portugal, which is one of the few neutral countries left in Europe at the time.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

So those bicycles saved their lives just like little Miss Fifi. Mr. Fifi.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

How well we'll get there. How did I I I know you didn't probably read this through this, whatever. It doesn't matter. But like Portugal remained neutral at that time. So they had to go through Spain to get to Portugal. How do they travel through Spain then?

SPEAKER_01 54:01

So Spain was still a country that was recovering from its own civil war at the time.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Um, so I don't think they were quite in the war the the world war as of yet.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Oh, okay. Because I mean, I'm sure like there had to be checkpoints like oh we gotta check your train, see who's on this bitch, and yeah, yeah, whatever. Because I can't imagine that would have gone over well. But yeah. All right.

Lisbon Waiting Room To America

SPEAKER_01 54:28

So they ended up in Lisbon. So by the time they arrived, roughly two weeks have passed since they left Paris.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Lisbon?

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Lisbon. Lis Lisbon. Lisbon, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah, you keep adding at the end there. I'm like Lisbon. Like, what did Lisbon do?

SPEAKER_01 54:46

So through it all, they carried their manuscripts and illustrations with them.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

The Rays remained in Lisbon through much of July while attempting to secure to secure the paperwork to leave Europe.

SPEAKER_04 54:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

So, like countless other refugees during the war, they found themselves stuck in a city that had become a waiting room for everybody. For everybody trying to escape. Basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

I mean, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

But eventually they secured a passage on a ship bound for Rio de Janeiro, and they made it safely back to Brazil.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Back to Rio.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

But for Margaret, Brazil didn't feel like the final destination. She's like, this is just a stopping point.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

She wanted to go to the States.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

She wanted to go to the States. So to Margaret, uh, America represented something larger than just safety. She believed it was a place that they might genuinely um be free.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Flourish.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Um, yes, far away from collapsing governments, racial laws, and the instability that had shaped their adult lives so far.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

So only a few months later, in October of 1940, the race boarded another ship headed for America.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

And with them were the manuscripts with Fifi. So when Margaret and Hans um arrived in the US in late 1940, um, they wasted no time in setting up um trying to find publishers for the manuscripts that they had carried.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Sorry, where did they end up in the States?

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Long Island.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah, okay. Yeah. I thought it was New York.

unknown 56:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

So okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

So Margaret's sister, Miss Mary, lived on Long Island.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

So wait, she moved from Germany to Long Island already?

SPEAKER_01 56:30

I didn't follow her story. Well, why would you? I just know that Mary's on Long Island. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

I didn't say like, get me there. I just said, wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 56:39

What the fuck? So the Rays use her address as a contact point for correspondence.

SPEAKER_00 56:47

That's what we do with Sarah's parents for Xavier's bus.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

There you go. Exactly. Yeah. So before leaving Europe, um, they had given that address to their publisher in London, hoping somehow communication might still reach them despite the chaos of the war, and it actually did. Right. When the Rays arrived, there was already a letter waiting for them.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Mm-hmm. And one of those like strange coincidences, um, the publishers themselves were also fleeing wartime Europe and had relocated to America as well.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Well, I mean, it seemed like the place to go.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

But however, they did not go with that publisher.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Oh, why? I don't know. They had a contract, they gotta they got a advance. To have to pay that back?

SPEAKER_01 57:28

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

What the fuck, man? Have some fucking loyalty. I didn't research that. Poor torn shit.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

That wasn't part of my research.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

No. I failed.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

Okay, so eventually the Rays went with American publisher Grace Hograth at what's the name?

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Grace what?

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Grace Hograth. Hograth at Houghton Miffin.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Houghton Miffin.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

She loved the monkey character immediately and helped secure the Rays a four-book contract worth around a thousand dollars, which is approximately twenty-two to twenty-three thousand dollars today.

SPEAKER_04 58:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Um, which at the time represented the stability that the rays had not experienced in years.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Sure. So they've been on the run.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah. So Grace Um Hograth had one concern.

Fifi Becomes Curious George

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Fifi's sounded a little bit too feminine for American audiences and suggested the monkey needed a different name. So that was when Fifi officially became.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Do they think they're like, by George, I got it?

SPEAKER_01 58:33

Fifi officially began George.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Became George.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

He became George. He became George. As in Curious George.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

No, I know. Yeah. Xavier remembered.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Xavier told you it was about Curious George.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

In his defense, he's seven.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

And but he can read, so good boy.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Well, he's doing really well.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

He is.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

And I did have a talking with him. I'm like, when somebody tells you this is a secret, you don't get points, bonus stuff, anything for ruining that secret.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

He's like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

So and I believe him. He's a good boy. He's a very good boy. He probably just thought he's like in his brain, because he's he always likes to tell me stuff. So I'm gonna tell dad.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

And it wasn't like malicious mean nothing.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

It was just like I gotta readjust.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

That's right. I need a beer too. But um, but basically, like he, you know, he just thought he was gonna do something cool for dad by this is what it is. Yeah, like I can read this, and also, man, it's so cool like driving around with him now. He's like, he'll just be reading random shit. No, I'm so proud of him because he's doing he's doing really well. Yeah, he's got some issues on certain words, but who doesn't he's learning, so shit.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

I say began and become, so whatever.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Well, yeah, look at Kate, she's she's 40, still learning, and she doesn't have any idea what's going on in this world. So all right, you keep going. I'm just gonna grab a beer while you're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Okay, so curious George. Um, oddly enough, the books were not an immediate cultural phenomenon.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Weird, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

The early response was respectable, um, but nothing explosive. The Rays were successful enough to continue working, but nobody yet understood just how deeply the stories would eventually become embedded in American childhood. So the major surge in popularity came about 15 minutes, nope, 15 minutes, 15 years afterwards. Okay, when the children who had grown up reading the books were now reading them to their children.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Sure. No, that makes sense because I mean there's a lot of books, excuse me, that I want to share with Xavier. Maybe not Dracula yet, but you know, you know, some books of my youth that I I enjoyed, or vice versa. He'll be like, he loves like I when I was a kid, I always loved the scholastic book ordering thing in school.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Scholastic, heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

So he he gets to do that still. I'm like, damn, they still got it. That's awesome. But he'll mention something like I used to read that or whatever, blah blah blah. So, like, yeah, I can understand how um these kids or young adults, whatever they were at the time, now they have their own kids and they're reading them these stories. It's it that's how shit's gonna grow, basically. So yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

So the second generation changed everything. The books became passed down within families, and suddenly George stopped being just a children's character and became a tradition.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Well, yeah, I mean, Forrest Gump passed it down to his kid.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Did he? Well, yeah, I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

I know I just watched that recently, but he was gonna bring it to school for show and tell, and that's when the feather flies out at the end that he keeps in the book. But yeah, so I mean it's yeah, it's it's stuff like that that um I my brother, my brother, my mother has I hope, this box of some of my stuff, and it's got all my old Garfield books in it, like the old comic books. Yeah, and Xavier just watched the newest Garfield movie. It was okay. Um uh Chris Pratt was the voice of Garfield, anyways. Um, I would love to give him all those old books now that he can start read, he's starting to read and everything, see what he thinks. But I gotta I hope I can find them. Yeah, because I had almost like every single one because I loved Garfield when I was little. That's actually how I met my best friend Matt, is he and I both like Garfield.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

That's cute.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

And we met in fifth grade because of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

So over the years, the Ray, the Rays would create seven major Curious George books together.

Legacy, Loss, And The Estate

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Yep, and their lives became be gradually became quieter, more stable. Um, by the 1950s, the Rays began spending summers in New Hampshire. Hans um especially seemed to thrive there.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

He would often sit near near pools or public gatherings, uh, excuse me, uh public spaces, sketching and working on drawings, and children inevitably drifted towards him out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Just like what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

And it happened constantly for him.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

It was just like this this cool old guy who was like drawing all these kids' characters. So kids would gather around and watch him draw while Hans entertained them, talked with them. Sometimes he would give them piggyback rides in the pool. Like he would pretend to be like a turtle and provide cr uh passage to the other side of the pool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

That was funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

Yeah. Um, but at the same time in New Hampshire, not everyone in those communities welcomed the rays at first.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

Because they were Jewish?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Some people were openly wary and uncomfortable with Jewish refugees there. But over time, many of those people's attitudes changed because of how they saw Hans interact with their children.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

In the community, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

So his warmth and playfulness disarmed people in a way, you know, it was just No, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

So there was something it would be difficult to dislike Hans, I guess. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

So as the decades passed, the Rays became um inseparable, not only from each other, but from the character that they had created.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

So did they actually love each other at one point?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Not in love, but yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

So they still just were like, she no, she said that no, we're not in love with each other. We're just a really good partnership. They happen to be married.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

Do they have kids? Okay. Just George. Shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Do they have kids? I don't think they did.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

No?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

I don't think they did.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Don't say it officially, because you don't know. But there's a chance you think they did not have kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

Did they ever have sex? I don't know. Because, man, what a terrible existence.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

That also was not part of my research.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Poor Hans. So um I really hope that wasn't part of your fucking research. I'm just asking a dumb question right now. That's all I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

So later in life, Hans became ill and was hospitalized.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

What did he become ill with?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

Um did it say? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Good lord.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

I know. I'm sick. What can I say?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

That's not an excuse. You weren't sick when you did the research.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Um, Margaret visited him there, and according to accounts from people close to her, shortly after she left the hospital on one occasion, Hans died, and she actually refused to return to see his. Him like that. Um, so she wanted her final memory of him to be when he was alive.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Sure. I mean, I get that. Even though she didn't love him, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

So after Han's death, Margaret continued managing and promoting Curious George for more than 19 additional years.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

But obviously, no more additional because he can't draw unless they had some banked up. But I'm guessing not the case, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

Um, she protected the legacy pretty fiercely and remained deeply involved with the character.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

Well, it also made her money.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

So then in December of 1996, Margaret died as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Oh wow, she made it to 96. Good for her.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

By that point, the little monkey that had once crossed war-torn Europe in a manuscript form had become one of the most recognizable children's characters in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

So did you ever in any of this, did they get do they have any explanation about the man in the yellow hat?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

No, they didn't talk about that in um the Is it the man in yellow or man in the yellow hat? Man in the yellow hat.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

I think so. They didn't say who that might have been, but Margaret did mention that um they have each other in each of the books in cartoon form.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

So like there'll be a scene on a page and she'll she'll she said, like, oh, that's us, that's us right there. Gotcha. Yeah. But that's I always a little bit like, well, what where's Waldo?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

Sure. Yeah. I was just always curious as like, what was the inspiration for the man in the yellow hat, though? Yeah. Because if I'm not mistaken, they never really say his name. It was just always the man in the yellow hat who had Curious George with him or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

Was his pet or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

But I couldn't tell the last time I read a Curious George book, but so by the mid-1990s, more than 75 million copies of the books had been sold in over 25 languages.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

That's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

And this all began with two refugees trying to outrun a war on handmade bicycles while carrying children's stories in their suitcases.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

With false Brazil passports.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

So I want to give a shout out to the documentary that I watched. Yeah. Um, so it is on Tubi, which is a free streaming program. Yep. And it is called Monkey Business: The Adventures of Curious George's Creators.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

That is such a good Skid Row song, Monkey Business. I'm gonna have to play it for you later.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

But they did such a great job in that they would have um Margaret was there being interviewed, um, children as adults that they got to know in New Hampshire would would speak, um, but they would have um real uh video and real pictures of war-torn Europe. But as far as the rays, they animated the rays.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

And it it was just so well done.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

I really, really enjoyed watching it and it yeah, it was good. It was great. Um, but I originally found this story on Pinterest. Go Pinterest.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

What's up, Pinterest?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

Yeah. So now I had to find out if they have kids. I don't think they did.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

I just if they only liked each other as friends, I mean, did they?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

Yeah, they were just like companions.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Were they ever intimate then? Because out of necessity.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

I I I I guess I don't care. It just seems weird. That, you know, she was like, I'm just gonna go marry this guy because I I see a business partner, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

They never had children.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

That's wild. So what did the estate go to when she died?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

I don't know. Sister in-law? Maybe New York. Um I don't remember that. What book was what publisher was she with? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

Houghton or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Whatever. Um I am not familiar with, but either way.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Um so after Margaret died in 96, the Ray's um literary estate was donated to De Grummond Children's Literature Collection at the University of Southern Mississippi. Um, it included manuscripts, artwork, correspondence, diaries, business records.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Why do you think Mississippi? I'm not sure. Because I mean they were in New Hampshire and they were in New York and New York, yeah. That's I I mean, great. That's awesome that it went somewhere, so it wasn't just more or less lost, but I guess uh to me, just Mississippi seems weird as a choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

But I don't know if there was another connection that we just didn't know about, but um sh Margaret also established the Curious George Foundation in 1989, and money generated through the books and licensing helped fund charitable causes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:10

So well, Forrest loved him. Forrest Jr. loved him.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

So I actually went to Barnes and Noble to look for a Curious George book.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:21

Yeah, and I like I was gonna buy it and I was like, I'm not sure why I'm buying it. So I put it back and bought other things that I shouldn't have.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

I don't, I don't know. I don't think we have one. Not for the kids or anything. I'm pretty sure Xavier has what I was gonna borrow the one.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:39

That's what I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

I was gonna like go to the library or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

No, I was gonna buy it, have it on the podcast, and then give it to your kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

Which they probably would have liked, but I wonder I should have asked Sarah, since he ruined the surprise if he has one. I d I guess I don't know if he does. Huh. I know the books I have, but hey, either way.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

I'm gonna see like who was the man in the yellow hat.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Because that yeah, that's how they refer to him, right? Man in the yellow hat.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

Because he had this weird, wild the man with the yellow hat.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Man with the okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

It is intentionally a little mysterious, which is part of why the character works so well. Is that why? That's it. He is an explorer, a traveler, a caretaker, and an accidental enabler.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Did did he have a Brazilian uh passport?

unknown 1:12:34

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

I mean, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

But now I want to like go through the books because there's only seven of them. I mean, seven uh original official. Yeah, and I want to see like if we could find the rays in in the in the books.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

No, we'll have to I'll have to ask Sarah um when we're done here, if she's awake. I know she was getting the kids to bed. Um I'll have to ask if she ever got Xavier uh a cure storage book. I I want to say no, but she would know better than me. Um, but no, that's crazy because like it's crazy what they had to go through, even with having a publishing contract, which then they said, fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

Yeah, I didn't look into that. I mean, some sometimes when I'm doing research, I don't think about questions like that. And so when you like come up with them, I'm like, oh shit, I didn't look into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

Maybe I should have thought of that. Well, that's why I'm here. So you do the work on the front end, I do the work on the back end, and that is not a weird euphemism for anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

I'm gonna um drink some more pediolite and maybe eat a cracker.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

So cheers.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

Welp.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:45

I suppose.

Closing Thoughts And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_00 1:13:46

All right, buffoons, that's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.