Unstable, Unbalanced and Difficult: Mary Todd Lincoln

Cold Open And Quick Banter

unknown 0:00

Stupid.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Oh, hey there. Oh, hey there. Oh, the history of buffoons.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

I'm Bradley. I'm Kate. I was out there fast. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I'm good. I'm good. Um sorry if the lighting is a little more dim than usual. It is clouding up. Early evening.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

It is early evening. Yeah. It's a nice spring there. I don't know. Oh my gosh, it's so nice out. It's warm out. I'm already still.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Bradley's wearing shorts.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

I was hot.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

I'm still in long sleeve.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Well, because, you know, you're not as warm as myself. That's okay.

Beer Tasting And Golf Birdie Story

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So today we're gonna talk about what do we got? The grieving life of Mary Todd Lincoln.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah. She went through a couple things.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Do you talk about how her son was almost killed and then saved by No.

unknown 1:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Why don't you say it briefly before we get into the beer?

SPEAKER_03 1:24

So what was it? He fell on like a railroad or something like that. I guess I'm I'm a little spotty on that aspect of the story. But um I and I was his name, Frank. John Wilkes booth, the guy who clearly killed her husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah, it was his brother. Yeah. Was it before or after?

SPEAKER_03 1:46

It was before. Okay. It was like it was pretty close too. I don't remember the exact time frame.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, I've heard something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah, which is fucking wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

So what beer do we have?

SPEAKER_03 1:55

We have a new lakefront beer. I always love lakefront beer. Uh shout out to uh Russ Clish. I've golfed with him 20 years ago. I don't know how fucking long.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

You don't golf.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

No, didn't that day either? Do you do you want to do it?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Did you drink?

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Oh, did I drink? Do you want me to tell you my one my one story that I'm proud of for golf? Sure. I might have told you this before. So every year at the first distributor that I worked at, before we merged with this other one, we had a golf outing. We would invite obviously vendors, you know, for that we get our beer from. And then we'd also invite our our customers, certain customers, to this golf outing. This particular year, if I'm not mistaken, they decided to have a beer on every hole. That was a fucking mistake. So what the hell? Yeah. So um I think it was the same year that I did this. So we golfed, we always did it at the same golf course. It was in Pewaki where I'm where I'm from, which is nice. And at this particular golf course, I don't remember what whole number it is, but it goes like up a hill to like almost to like where the the clubhouse is and everything or whatever. But there's you know trees and stuff and so on and whatever. So I tee off fucking rocket ship right towards this tree. My ball falls. Like, cool, I got a birdie. My only one and only birdie. I literally killed a fucking bird. I'm like, how the fuck does that happen? Anyway, so I was I think that was the one I was I was golfing with Russ. If it wasn't, it was the year before. Doesn't matter. Russ is a cool dude, he makes good beer. So we have Weisscons.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Umice hail. And it's a summary German-style wheat ale. I have this lighting, I still have one my eyes. Made with Wisconsin-grown hops and malted barley. So it is five percent. Like I said, it's from Lakefront Brewery. How does it smell?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Good. Tasty.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Cheers. Ooh, that's good. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

It's a little strong for my taste, but I am gonna drink it.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

That's strong?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Compare to Medello. It's flavorful.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

So you're saying Medello doesn't have flavor?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

It's more flavorful.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

I am a big fan of fleist beers. Um usually my go-to is imported ones like Packershore, which I I love, or uh Polaner. Some people call it Polaner. I don't know which one's right. I've heard both. Um my ultimate favorite brewery. Sierra Nevada used to have the one called Killer Vice. So delicious. Anyways, I don't even know if they still make it. I don't think they do. At least it's not out this way, I don't believe anymore. Anyways, go russ. This is delicious. I think it's on par. She thinks it's strong.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Okay, so Mary Todd Lincoln was born in 1818 in Lexington, Kentucky.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Is that where she first met him? Because he wasn't born in Illinois, even though Illinois will slap him all over their goddamn license plates.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

No, they did not meet in Kentucky.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Did they meet in Illinois? Yes. Because isn't he he's also from Kentucky, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

He was born, but I think he was like two when he left.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

They still claim him. He wasn't born there. That's just like uh what's the sorry, the the license plate, the birthplace of flight, but the flight never actually happened there before the Wright brothers were born. What the fuck state is that now? Because it's always North Carolina. North Carolina.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So she was born into a very well-connected, financially comfortable, stable family. Okay. Um, this was polished furniture, formal dinners, a very sociable um area. Um and it mattered who you knew.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Where where in Kentucky was she born?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Lexington.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Lexington, that's right. Um her origin So her maiden name was Todd?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

So Is that right? Yes. No, no, no, her, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

I think she just had a seizure, folks.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yes, her maiden name is Todd.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Okay. Because I I mean I always get Mary Todd Lincoln. I just wanted to make sure that was correct. Because I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's right. I I don't know. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

So her father, Robert Todd, was a successful businessman and banker.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Bob Todd.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Bob Todd.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Sorry. Bob Todd. What bank did he work for? Now I mean, like you and I have talked about. Oh, I wonder what's going up there. Probably another bank. Probably a bank. Fucking banks.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

So her father, um, sorry, um sorry, Bob Todd. So he was a business in a baker. Okay, so her mother died when Mary was six years old. Oh, that's sad.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

And that was the first of many tragedies in the Mary Todd Lincoln life. My my dad's mom died when he was six.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

That's really sad.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

So her father remarried fairly quickly after only a year. Okay. And Mary gained a stepmother she never really fully warmed to.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

So it's kind of like Cinderella.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Mm-hmm. And a bunch of like half-siblings. So the household was full and structured and at times times tense, and Mary learned how to stand her ground in a crowded room, something that would become her defining trait. Okay. She was educated in a way that set her apart from many other women of her time. She attended a finishing school where she studied French and literature and politics, and not in like an entry-level way. She was genuinely interested.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

More or less like going to college, yeah, in a way. Yeah. What it sounds like. So and like happily, she wanted to learn learning. Sure. Um, so was this obviously she loved learning. Was this kind of like, Mary, you're going to this thing from dad or something, or just like what and if you don't know this, that's fine. Just guess. I want to go do this, Dad. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, I don't know whose idea it was.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Um because if she liked it so much, I could see maybe her like advocating for herself to go. This would be good for me, dad.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

And fuck you stop. Yeah. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Um, she followed political debates, understood party divisions and opinions, and she had strong ones herself. They didn't, her opinions didn't always make her popular, especially in a society that preferred women to be dainty, agreeable, and quiet.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

And quiet, silent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Mary was not.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

She spoke out.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

She was witty, she was sharp, and could be cutting when she wanted to be.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

People often described her as lively and intelligent, but also temperamental.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Okay.

Meeting Lincoln And A Rocky Engagement

SPEAKER_00 9:31

She had a quick tongue and didn't always soften her thoughts before speaking them. Oh, good. In a drawing room, she could charm you or absolutely dismantle you, sometimes in the same conversation. That's awesome. In her early 20s, Mary moved to Springfield, Illinois to live with her sister Elizabeth. And this is where she starts to interact with Abraham Lincoln. Okay. So if I recall, Abraham's born in Kentucky, I think for like two years, then moved to Indiana, then moved to Springfield.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Oh, he did he lived in Indiana's. I think he did. I think he did. I guess if if that's the case, I I guess I never knew that personally. I just know that Illinois likes to land of Lincoln. It's like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

You know my thoughts at Illinois.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

I do. So Springfield at the time was a growing political hub, and Mary stepped right into those uh social circles.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

How long was she there before she met Abraham? Do you do do you have any idea?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Um, I don't know. She did meet around, they did meet around 19, 1839.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Like 19, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Or 1840. So I'm not sure how long she was there.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

So she would have already been 20, 20, 22 at this time.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

And she moved in her early 20s, so it could have been around pretty much the same time.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Oh, okay. So well, I mean, a lot less people back then.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Easier to meet, I guess. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

So she attended gatherings, um, met rising politicians, and made it very clear that she intended to marry someone with ambition. Oh, well, she once reportedly said that she would marry a man who would become the president of the United States.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Well, she checked that off the list.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yes. So Mary met Abraham Lincoln around 1840, as I said, at a social gathering. They didn't quite match, like on the surface.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Is it because he was super tall and didn't have his beard yet?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

He was tall. He was awkward.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

He had um kind of a higher-pitched voice. Did he really? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Four years ago. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was kind of weird like that. Um, and he also came from really humble beginnings.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Abraham did? Yes. Oh, yeah, for sure. He was hunting vampires. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

He didn't have Mary's polished upbringing or formal education.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

He was he came from a log cabin. Yeah. I mean, and he was he literally, what didn't he like chop down trees and shit and what all that other stuff? So he didn't go to finishing school, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

No, he was self-educated and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

So he was intelligent, um, really thoughtful. He had a dry sense of humor and matched her wit, you know, quietly.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Do people ever have a wet sense of humor? Wow. I got I don't know if you've ever heard of the Death Star. I just got the Death Star.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

So they connected quickly. Their relationship um was anything but smooth. Sure. They became engaged and then broke it off pretty dramatically in 1841.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

How is it broken off dramatically?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So I didn't write it down. I didn't, you know, put it into words. However, you're going off of memory here. I'm going off of memory.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

We are fucked, folks.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Um, they went to a party, and I guess she was talking to another man. Scandalous. I don't know if there were flirtations happening or what, but Abraham was like, I don't think this is for me.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

I ain't dating this hussy. No?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

I doubt it.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

I'm sorry, he had a higher picture.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Hey, dating this hussy. So Lincoln actually went through a really deep depression after the split.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Is it because of the split?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. It wasn't a clean ending. It was messy. It was emotional. Um Mary questioned whether Lincoln had the drive she wanted in a partner anyway. And Lincoln questioned whether he was suited for marriage at all. Like he wasn't sure if he even wanted to be married. Um, but obviously we know differently 20 and 20 or whatever those are.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

So no, that's literally what they say.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So they found their way back to each other eventually and married in 1842. The fact that they reunited after such a rocky breakup says a lot about the pull that they had towards one another.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Do you think they're like reunited and it feels so good?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Reunited.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Don't sing it.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Their marriage was a mix of affection, frustration.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Well, that sounds like marriage.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And some differences.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Yeah, sounds like marriage. Mary was a You can't tell me you don't have some of that with Nathan. You can't tell me I don't have some of that with Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

I don't think Nathan realizes that I have sarcasm.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

No, that is that is 100% accurate.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Um, quick little story. He takes things very literal. He does. Quick little story. Um, him mostly him, but him and I spent several days um breaking down venison and adding beans to it, and da da da.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

You were doing the sausage hours on this. I remember this.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

The very next day, Bradley's over and we're about to podcast or whatnot. Yeah. And we were talking about dinner, I think.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah. It's like, well, what are we gonna have for dinner?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I and I said, Oh, I wish we had venison. And he goes, That's what's literally what we've been working on the last couple of days. It's like, I know that was sarcasm.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I remember that. Oh my god. That was so great. He he does take things a lot very literal most of the time. But I've in in my time of knowing him, I've I've learned that. And I try and like, because you know me, I'm super fucking sarcastic. Yeah, I try and curb that a little bit when I'm around just so I don't know, like, what? What don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

I freak my students out all the time because I'll say something and they'll be like, What? I think someone asked to borrow a pencil, and I said, Okay, it's just 75 cents. And I said, Oh, like I was like, Oh, that's fine. Yeah, 75 cents. And she was like, uh I don't have changed with me. Who's like, Jesus Christ?

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I uh I do I do that a lot with Sarah too. It's like I will I will say things so straightforward and straight face and whatever. She like, are you serious? No, not even close.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

You do that to me, and I'm like, really? Because it's mostly about music because I think I'm right in something, and you're like, Yes, and I'm like, really?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

What was it just earlier?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

You're uh we were talking about the Astros, weren't we?

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Well, you brought them up. Larry Bird.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Larry Bird was on TV, and I was like, I know who Larry Bird is.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

And I'm like, what team did he play for? I'm like, the New York Knicks? I'm like, no. I'm like, you're in the same area. I said area meaning location.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

And then I said Astros or something, yeah, different sport.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

And but my response right away is like, yeah, you're like, really?

SPEAKER_00 17:03

No. Okay, okay.

Marriage Life And Early Child Loss

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Anyways, anyways, anyways, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Okay. So Mary was expressive, emotional, and socially driven, and Lincoln was very reserved, lost in thought, and could be distant. Um, he spent long stretches away traveling because he is a lawyer in in Springfield, and he travels for his legal work, writing the circuit. Um, and Mary stayed in Springfield managing the home and the children that she will be having, is having, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Wait.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

There are there are children.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Mary and Abraham, I know there's children.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Mary and Abraham had four sons, and I'll get into each of them separately. Um, we have Robert, um, Edward, or they called him Eddie. We have William, whom they called Willie, and Thomas, whom they called Tad, because apparently he looked like a tadpole when he was young. Like big head little body.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

I think is it? I think Tad is the one that the the John Wilkes Booth bro. I kind of want to say it's Frank, but I don't think I'm right on that. But for some reason I keep going. I think Tad was the one that he saved, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong. Doesn't matter. Continue.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

So their second son, Eddie, died in 1850 at just four years old, likely from tuberculosis.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Fucking TB.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

And this loss hit Mary very, very, very four.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Because he was the second son. Second son, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

So this is her second loss.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah, because she lost mom at six.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Technically, her dad remarried and kind of lost that.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Well, to a degree.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

But um, she was known to grieve intensely, and Eddie's death lingered with her.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

Um I mean, I can't blame her.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

So even before the White House years, grief was already pretty much written in her history.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

So financially, their situation before Lincoln became president was complicated, but not in dire straits. Lincoln was a successful lawyer by the 1850s and they lived comfortably in Springfield. They owned their own home. They weren't struggling in a way some people like some people might assume. Sure. They weren't wealthy in Lexington, uh, in the wet Lexington way that Mary was. Right. Um, but they were comfortable. They were comfortable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Absolutely. So Mary did have a taste for finer things. In fact, she was a little bit of a shopaholic.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Well, she her upbringing would obviously kind of gear towards that, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah. So she loved clothing and furnishings and presentation, and that sometimes clashed with Lincoln's more modest approach.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

We're in a log cabin, we don't need these things.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So if we put a hole in the wood, then we got turbo. Whatever.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Anyways, it created That was terrible, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

It created tension, especially when it came to money, and Lincoln was careful and Mary was impulsive.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

She was really okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So socially, though, Mary played a very important role in Lincoln's rise. Yeah. She understood politics in a way that many of his peers wives did not.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Well, because she more or less studied that. So she had a very inside, early inside look to it. So she she knew how to lack of a better way of saying it, play the game to get him to rise up. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

So she would host gatherings and engaged in conversations and help build connections. Okay. And she did believe in his potential. Um finally. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Thank God, Mary.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Mary. So their marriage wasn't simple or consistently happy in a way that people like to imagine.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Um, it did have warmth and loyalty, but there were also arguments and stress and long periods of emotional distance. It's called marriage. So they were very different people trying to build a life together in a time that didn't make it easy.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

By the time Lincoln was elected president in 1860, Mary had already lived through the loss of her mother, a strained relationship with her stepmother, the death of a child, and years of navigating a marriage that required patience and resilience. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Everyone. Every marriage names that seriously.

White House Pressure And Civil War Suspicion

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I'm gonna readjust here. That's fine. So by the time Mary Todd Lincoln arrived at the White House in 1861, she wasn't walking into a dream. It was more of a storm. A shit storm? The country was falling apart. I wonder why. Fucking Confederates. Within weeks of Abraham Lincoln taking office, the American Civil War had begun. And the White House become became less of a home and more of a command center for a nation in crisis.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Did you know he was the first Republican president? Did you know where the Republican Party was?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Oh, because he was a he was a uh Whig.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Yeah. Do you know where the Republican Party started? You should. I I've asked you this question on the podcast before.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Ripon.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Wisconsin. Ripon Wisconsin. Yeah, he was a Whig.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Or white Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So for Mary, this meant that her role as First Lady wasn't about hosting pleasant social gatherings or elegant dinners.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

It was about action.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

It was more about navigating suspicion, actually.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Of what?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Her Kentucky roots.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

So her Kentucky roots became That sounds like a little bit of a little bit of a little bit under a microscope. Went under a microscope. Kentucky was a border state with divided loyalties, and several members of her own family supported the Confederacy, and some fought for it. That alone made people question her loyalty, whispering that she might be a Southern sympathizer or a spy.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Well, I mean, do you realize that like one of the first people for NASA was a Nazi? People change.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

So the whispers would like follow her from room to room, every decision, every appearance. If she spent money decorating the White House, which she did, and often it was labeled as excessive or inappropriate during wartime. If she spoke passionately, it was called unstable.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Oh, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

If she w withdrew, she was criticized for being cold. There wasn't a version of herself that the public seemed willing to accept.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

So she was in a no-win scenario. Yes. 100%. Because everyone's gonna criticize every single fucking move that she does, clearly. Um, whether it be to from decorating, withdrawing, because that's what they wanted that, but now that she's withdrawing, it's like, why is she decorating? Yeah, you know, it's like fuck off, people. Yeah, and it's it's almost similar like with the Kentucky Roots thing. It's like that's her past. She's been in Springfield, Illinois for how long now? It's just like someone like, well, 12 years ago, he tweeted this. Okay, people can fucking change you, a-holes.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

So at the same time, Mary was trying to manage the emotional weight of living in a house filled with constant reminders of war.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

I thought you were gonna say living in a house that's white.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Um, wounded soldiers passed through Washington and funerals became routine.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Well, it is it is wartime.

Willie’s Death And Spiritualism Backlash

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Uh, and Mary didn't observe the war from a distance because she visited hospitals. She spoke with injured soldiers and tried to um for offer comfort where she could. Sure. Um Wow, that was I'm I'm so fucking and then in 1862, the war reached into her own home. Her son Willie fell ill. Oh no, which was likely typhoid fever. Oh the White House water supply was contaminated, which meant that the very place that was supposed to be the safest for her children became the source of danger.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

So wait, was it like intentionally contaminated? No, it just something happened. And okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Um, Willie grew weaker and died at 11 years old. Jesus Christ. She lost a kid at four and eleven. A second child.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Now, this was during war. It was during our stay at the White House. She was surrounded by pressure and scrutiny, and now she has this grief on a national scale.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

So they're expecting her to put on a happy face. Not a maybe not happy, but like put on a face that's like, all right, we're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Yeah, put on your game face. That's a great way to put it. But I just lost my second fucking kid.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

So Willie had actually been really close to both Abraham and Mary, and his death hit both of them like incredibly hard. Oh, I and Mary's grief was overwhelming and consuming. Okay. She withdrew almost completely for a time. She couldn't bear the rooms that reminded her of him, couldn't move past the feeling that she had lost something irreplaceable in the middle of everything else that was falling apart with the country.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And instead of receiving compassion, she was met with criticism. Fucking people. People began to label her as unstable, over overly emotional, even irrational.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

People are just terrible.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Her grief might be understood as profound and complex today, but back then it was inappropriate and excessive.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Excessive. Hey, my my son just died. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

So there was very little space for a woman in her position to openly fall apart even after losing a child. And Mary searched for ways to cope, and one of the paths she turned to was spiritualism, which was popular at the time. Yeah, for sure. She attended seances hoping to communicate with Willie. For her, it was more about the connection, about trying to reach across that divide. Yeah. Um, but again, another reason to mock her.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Well, I mean, I have to make fun of her for that too, because it's just not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So meanwhile, Abraham Lincoln continued to carry the weight of the war, and their marriage during this time became a complex mix of grief and shared burdens.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Um, they both love their son deeply, but they processed the loss differently.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Lincoln threw himself into his work, often staying emotionally distant, not out of indifference, but because that's how he coped. Yep. Mary needed closeness and reassurance and space to grieve in a way that didn't have like a clear ending. Yeah. Like, okay, you need to be over this by such and such time.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

So that's very tough because like everyone grieves in their own way. Um like I grieve in weird ways with dark humor. That's what I do. She needed that, he needed this. I mean, so it's it's hard. Everyone grieves in different ways. It sucks when they're so not compatible. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_00 28:38

So that difference created some distance with them at times, even as they remained connected by everything else. The war dragged on and the pressure didn't ease. Um, casualties mounted. Yep. Criticism of Lincoln's leadership grew and shifted depending on the outcome of the battles.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

And Mary remained a target for public scrutiny, often unfairly. Her spending habits, her emotional um volatility.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Volatility.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Her background, everything was dissected and judged.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

And it's crazy that it was so she was so scrutinized in a time where people didn't know her, you know? Not like today, where like everything's on TV. On TV, on Twitter, on internet, on name, name your fucking thing here. But back then it's like you literally had to know the person, or you're reading something that probably was written fucking weeks ago and is finally getting you, kind of shit. It's like the fact that she was so scrutinized is really kind of sad. Honestly.

Lincoln Assassination And Public Mourning

SPEAKER_00 29:46

So by 1865, the war was finally coming to an end, the Confederacy was collapsing, and there was um a sense of like fragile, cautious, but real that the worst might be over. And it feel felt like there might be some relief. Sure. But then what happened? On April 14th, 1865, Mary and Abraham attended a play at Ford's Theater. It was meant to be an evening away from the constant strain to relax after years of this tension. And during the performance, Lincoln, as many know, has been shot by John Wilkes Booth. Mary was sitting beside him when it happened. She heard it, she saw it, and immediately understood that something was terribly wrong.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Well, yeah, your husband's dead.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

The scene was chaotic, confusing, and fearful. Lincoln was carried across the street to a boarding house where doctors worked through the night.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Try to save him. Because he was shot in the head, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah, I think so. If I'm not mistaken. Mary was kept away for parts of it because her grief was so intense that those um around her feared that she would collapse completely.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Oh dear, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And then, of course, he died the next morning. In a matter of years, Mary had lost her son, well, her mother, two sons, and now her husband.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Fucking hell. That is a that is that's tough, man. That that weighs on you.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

After the assassination, um she never fully recovered from those experiences. The combination of her personal loss, public scrutiny, and the constant stress of war left lasting marks on her. Not surprised. Mary Todd Lincoln's White House years were defined by survival. Um, she lived through history and paid for it in ways that most people around her never fully understood.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Never could understand.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

After Abraham Lincoln died, Mary Todd Lincoln lost the center of her world.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

And the immediately aftermath, there was no quiet space for grief. Everything was public.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

The nation more you are in a public position, yeah. Position. You're married to the fucking president. So I get I get that part of it. But at the same time, come on, people, she just lost her fucking husband. Not even yeah, we lost our president, but she just lost her husband. That's even more intimate, personal, whatever you want to say. So, like, give her a fucking moment for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

The nation mourned Lincoln. Um, and Mary mourned a husband that she had been sitting by hours earlier. She and she was inconsolable. Sure. And in the days following the assassination, Mary's grief was so intense that she could barely function. She cried uncontrollably, refused to attend parts of the funeral proceedings, and withdrew from the public view. If I recall, he Lincoln's body actually traveled around the United States in like a procession all the way to Springfield.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

And you know what's really weird? If I'm if I'm getting this right, if I'm not remembering correctly, which again, I don't trust myself. There is a photo of his coffin, casket, whatever, going through I don't remember which town it was. But it's like, okay, so here's the street. It's building up here, right? The picture is taken from this angle. Up in the window is uh Roosevelt as a kid. Fucking weird.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Which one?

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Whichever one was president first as a Roosevelt. Theodore I'm fucking. This is why we do a history podcast. Because there's a good reason why we put oons, oon in buffs, because we're buffoons. Our memories are f we're we're getting up. We're getting up in years. I mean I am. Um I I I hate how I cannot remember some of the shit. Because I know it. I just don't want to say the wrong fucking name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

So it's like because there was Teddy, and then who was the other one?

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Theodore. Just kidding. Same guy.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

It was like, what?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Franklin. It was Franklin, yeah. It was Franklin. Franklin. It was Teddy. Oh. I'm almost positive it was Teddy because it was Teddy and then because Frank wasn't Franklin the one during World War II and all that, right? Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Yeah, it was Teddy. I'm almost I want to say it was Teddy who was in the picture as a kid. Yeah. I believe. So I'll look into it later.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

At the time, people didn't interpret this, like her not going to the funeral proceedings as trauma. They didn't interpret it as trauma. They interpreted it as instability.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Fucking hell.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

And these words tend to follow her: unstable, unbalanced, and difficult.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Oh, Jesus Christ. Okay. So Yeah, you know, I just lost my husband. Fucking hell.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

This is really where the narrative of Mary Todd Lincoln begins to take hold.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Okay.

Widowhood Money Stress And Wardrobe Scandal

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Losing her mind. People think she is losing her mind. And it grew out of years of loss and pressure and very visible emotional reactions that people don't know how to categorize.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Being a public figure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So after leaving the White House, Mary returned to a private life. She carried debt, controversy, and a reputation that had already been damaged during her time as first lady.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

What kind of debt did she have?

SPEAKER_00 35:31

You know, I didn't look into that.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

I'm just curious. I'm not saying it's like it's wiped clean because your husband was president, but it's like I just I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

I think she ended up, I think she ended up suing the government for aid as a widowed first lady. Oh wow. I think there was something along those lines. Something like that? Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

I never heard of that either. Okay. Uh that's crazy though. Anyways, sorry. Continue on.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

So she had already lost her son Eddie. Yep. Lost her son Willie during the war. Yep. And now her husband was gone. Yep. Her surviving children became her entire world, but even that was complicated. I'm sure. Her youngest Tad was still a child and deeply attached to her. Yep. But their their oldest son, Robert Todd Lincoln, had a very different relationship with her. Robert had spent much of his early life removed from the chaos of his parents' dynamic. And by the time of the assassination, he was an adult trying to build his own life and career.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

How old was he? What do you remember when he was born?

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Fuck. I don't think I've got the year of when he was born.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

So he wasn't already a uh already an adult at this time. I guess I didn't realize he was that old. Because he is the oldest when you said it, correct?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

So the oldest and the youngest, the two middle died.

unknown 36:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

So emo where Mary was emotional and reactive, Robert was controlled and pragmatic. He didn't process grief the same way, and he didn't respond to his mother's behavior with the same kind of emotional understanding she seemed to need.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Or compassion for that matter, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

And that gap s between them widened quickly.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure it created a rift that you was not repairable, more or less, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:22

So Mary struggled financially in the years after Lincoln's death, which added another layer of stress.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

She believed not entirely without reason that she was entitled to more financial support from the government as the widow of a president, as I was saying. She did put petition Congress for a pension and eventually received one. Oh, really? But the process was really slow and humiliating for her. Of course it was. In the meantime, she made decisions that fed into the public perception that something was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

And uh one of the most infamous incidences came in 1867 when Mary attempted to sell a large portion of her wardrobe in New York under a pseudonym. She worked with a broker to discreetly auction off her clothing and personal items, hoping to raise money for herself without drawing attention. Sure. And of course, that did not stay discreet. Of course. The story broke and it became a scandal.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

How how did that break? Like, how did how did someone find that out?

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I'm not sure how they found out, but newspapers ended up portraying her as desperate and irrational and greedy. She's trying greedy.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

She's fucking selling her shit so she can live.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

How the fucking She's just people with who don't have the the facts. No, and they're jumping to conclusions.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

It was they had their own truths.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

So she was a widow trying to secure financial stability after years of upheaval, and then this public opinion is all against her.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

That's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Mary then began to develop what would today be recognized probably as paranoia.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

She believed people were trying to poison her, steal from her, or otherwise harm her.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

She worked worried constantly about money, even when she had enough to live on.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

I worry about money every day.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

She spent erratically at times, then panicked about those same expenses. To people around her, this behavior looked unpredictable and alarming, but to Mary, it felt like survival.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Did did she did you say did she go back to Springfield? Yeah. Okay. Is she still like close with her sister that was there?

Paranoia Claims And Being Committed

SPEAKER_00 39:37

She's close to her sister, but she also travels abroad. Okay. So I'll get to that. All right. So she had lived through repeated trauma and her sense of safety, her physical, emotional, and financial safety had been shaken. Her mind was trying to make sense of the world that was repeatedly proven to be unsafe for her. For her. Yeah. Um. But again, language of the time, she is unstable. So Robert, the eldest son, watched all of this unfold um with increasing concern, but also frustration. He was trying to establish himself professionally and socially, and his mother's behavior was becoming a liability in his eyes.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

So he did he try to separate himself from in a w in a way. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Um he worried about her, but he also struggled on how to handle her. So in 1875, Robert made the decision to have his mother committed to an asylum.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Oh, fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

He arranged for a trial in which Mary was examined and declared insane by a jury. Holy fuck, really?

SPEAKER_03 40:48

I guess I never knew this about Mary.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

The evidence presented included her erratic spending, her fears of being poisoned, and emotion in her emotional instability. From a modern perspective, much of this reads as a mix of grief, trauma, and possibly underlying mental health conditions.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Which could have been attributed to the loss of her kids. Yes. Loss of her husband. Yes. A fucking very political uh fallout. Well, that too, but a very I didn't mean political, public life. Yes. Everything? Yes. Oh my word. It's just like have your own fucking kid commit you. God damn.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

So she was sent to a private mental institution in Illinois. Okay. From Mary's perspective, this was a betrayal.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Can you blame her?

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Her own son orchestrated it. She felt trapped, humiliated, furious. She actually wrote letters insisting that she was sane, pleading for her release, and slowly began to rally for support. And this is where things kind of turn a little bit. Oh. Mary didn't accept the diagnosis. She's a smart, intelligent woman. She fought it. So within a few months, she secured her release and later had the ruling overturned entirely. Oh wow. She regained control of her finances and her legal independence, which complicates the idea that she was completely detached from reality before.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

100%. Because I mean, okay. If you can do that, clearly you're not fucking insane. Right. So how did this affect her relationship with her oldest son?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Um, they never fully recovered.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

They shouldn't have. You know why? Because if I were her, I'd say, fuck you, Bob Todd Lincoln. Yeah. And why why were that why was his name Robert Todd Lincoln? Why wasn't it Robert Lincoln?

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Because it was named after her dad, full full Robert Todd.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Her kid.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Why was it not just Robert Lincoln?

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Because he was named fully after her dad, Robert Todd.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Oh, Todd's his middle name.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Yeah.

unknown 43:01

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Yeah, they made yeah, they made Todd his middle name.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

I okay. Um I I got confused because her name's Mary Todd Lincoln.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Anyways, Bob Todd.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

So she actually had a name change.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

She did?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah. Um, let me look it up real quick. Um was it Laquitia? What? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

I'm just I literally the first name that came to mind was that, and I don't even know if it's a real fucking name. She was born Mary Ann Todd. Mary Ann Todd. Yeah, and typically back then, you tip when you get married, you take your maiden name and it becomes your middle name. However, so she wasn't a Todd Dash Lincoln? She was just Mary Todd Lincoln?

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Yeah, she was just Mary Todd Lincoln.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Oh, this whole time I thought she was like Todd Dash Lincoln? Yeah, like hyphenated.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah. So if I recall from something that I've read, when the stepmother showed up with their siblings, with her half siblings, one of them was named. Mary Ann. Oh. And so Mary lost her name, essentially. And she became Mary Todd. Mary Todd Lincoln. Mary Todd.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

So How How are they how are they half-sisters if they showed up?

Release Fight Tad’s Death And Final Years

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Sorry, not half-sisters, but step sisters step siblings. Step, not half.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Step step step.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

So she also lost her name at one point. Okay, so. Can you blame her for going crazy? Right? So she was capable of advocating for herself, organizing the support, and navigating the legal system when she needed to. Okay. But like I said, the relationship with Robert was lasting and they never fully recovered. Yeah. So in the years that followed, Mary lived a quieter life. Sure. She actually went to Europe trying to find some distance from the place where much of her pain had unfolded.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Much of her uh anguish came from.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

However, in 1871, her youngest son Tad died. From what? At the age of 18.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Good lord.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

He most likely died. Um, let me think. Uh when did he die? Tuberculosis, maybe pneumonia.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

I guess it's tuberculosis.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Tuberculosis, potentially with pneumonia.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Doesn't do don't correct me if I'm wrong or don't correct me if you don't know, but don't a lot of people have tuberculosis like get pneumonia, and that's like a very like because it's like a respiratory right?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

I I'm I'm not an expert by any stretch on tuberculosis or pneumonia for that matter. But um I always thought, like, when you have tuberculosis, pneumonia is like a fucking destination for you.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

I could be wrong, I don't know. But um do you ever think in her well fucked up life, we'll call it, because of all the grief she went through. It's like, why wasn't you, Bob?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

No, she wouldn't think that. He had her fucking committed. He she wouldn't think that.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

I mean, you would hope not, but he had her committed.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

But Tad died at the age of 18. It was her third child lost. Jesus Christ. Um, at that time she buried three of her sons and her husband.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

It took her that long to bury all three of them. Stop. Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

The loss was layered on top of loss with very little time or support to heal in between. So when people at the time described her as crazy, were what they were reacting to was a woman who grieved loudly.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Yeah, she didn't hide it. She didn't do it behind closed doors. She just grieved.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

And she didn't fit the narrow expectations placed on her. Yeah. She didn't hide her pain well. She didn't package it into something socially acceptable.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

No, because again, everyone grieves differently. And that was her version of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

So Mary Todd Lincoln spent her final years um largely removed from public life, living with her sister in Springfield.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

She remained physically frail and emotionally marked by everything that she had endured.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Can you blame her?

SPEAKER_00 47:15

When she died in 1882, she was 63 years old. By then, the story that had been built around her was already set in people's minds as being difficult, unstable, and tragic. That's crazy. But of course, if you look closely at her life after the assassination, it reads less like a sudden descent into madness and more of this is just a woman who is grieving the loss of her entire family. More or less, yeah. And she could hold on to what she could hold on to.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Yeah, and that's the thing. That's why it's like, I'm sorry if I don't think you ever would, God forbid. If Xavier had me committed, there would be a problem between him and I.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

So for her to have her oldest son commit her.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

And now only son, really.

SPEAKER_03 48:08

Well, and then and then becomes yeah, but that but then becomes only son, but like and his reasoning behind it though, because he's trying to build his career. I gotta get mom out of the picture. It's like, dude, fuck you, man.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

That's it's like the Kennedys taking their daughter to the wherever to get her, yeah, to get her fucking lobotomy and just just get her out of the picture.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Yeah, she she she she died a little bit that way. That that's West. No, that's West. Forgot where we are.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

That's West.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

That's north. But yeah, no, and it's it's more or less the same kind of concept that they're like, well, she's gonna she's a problem, she's a problem, and we're public and she's gonna cause an issue. Fuck, his name was Bob too. Bob Kennedy, right? Robert Bob Kennedy? If I'm not Bill? Oh, Bill. No, I'm thinking of uh her was that her brother then? Because Robert Kennedy Jr. Robert Kennedy?

SPEAKER_00 49:16

I don't know, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

No, I I think you're right. I think it was Bill. My my apologies.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

I don't know. So anyway, Mary Todd Lincoln and her insane upbringing, yeah, life life and commitment.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Fuck, that's tragic. Like I know to lose that many fucking people that were so. Again, I don't like to dwell on it. I don't think I do. Like, the first close, really close person I lost was my dad. I love my grandma.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

And his birthday's tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

His birthday's tomorrow. I loved my grandma. I was close with her, but I wasn't my fucking dad. Basically, is all I'm saying. I miss my grandma. Great, whatever. The very closest person I've ever lost is my dad. And yes, his birthday is tomorrow, he would have been 84. But she lost her kids. She lost her fucking husband. In his prime, really. I mean, he was not that old. She wasn't that old. And then to lose another kid and then to have your kid commit you. It's like, what the fuck? What other sh and then had to have the public scru scrutiny of of like, hey, I need some money. I'm gonna sell my wardrobe. Oh, it's like fuck off, people.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Yeah. Seriously. Just trying to survive here.

Modern Parallels Closing And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Just just trying to get some money to pay the bills, am I right? But we live in a fucked up world and it's even more fucked up now because of the social media aspect of things, the instant fucking gratification, if you will, of things, where someone in this state said this. Two seconds later, someone on the other side of the country be like, Did you hear what so-and-so said? Yeah. So, like, even back then for her, with none of these things, people just fucking scrutinized her so bad. It's like fuck off. I'm grieving the loss of my fucking family members at different intervals. But Jesus Christ, what what is the problem here? Why are you like scrutinizing me so much? And people grieve in different ways, you know? But it's like fucking hell. Welp.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Alright, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_03 51:46

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SPEAKER_00 52:00

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SPEAKER_03 52:05

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SPEAKER_00 52:08

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