Guten Tag, Gutenberg

0:00 Oh hey. Except for you got to stop with the drinking. While we're recording, you're saying I got a problem. I don't have a drinking problem, I have a stopping problem. I see what you did there. I see what I did there. It's funny because it's true. Oh, hey there, welcome to History of a Fools. I'm Kate and I'm Bradley. And we are sharing a beverage. We are. How are you today, Kate?

0:40 I'm good I'm having a Modelo. It's almost empty and I should have prepared for that. Oh dear, yeah, that's alright, you're halfway there. Yeah, I'll be talking mostly anyway. God damn it. I should have brought my earplugs folks, and he is having a mint julep. I am For no reason other than just having a mint julep. Tell the listeners how you make it. So there are a few different ways to make mint juleps. The way I like to make mine. I found this recipe years ago. It is basically all you do is add powdered sugar and mint and then you add a little bit of water to make like a syrupy minty. Simple syrup is technically what it's called.

1:22 Pack it with ice, I'd say three quarters or more of bourbon, splash of white soda and, uh, you're supposed to drink at least the way I always learned it you drink the, the booze, a little bit of soda. It is really raining now. Look at that. They finally got what we promised, we're promised. And then you drink the booze through the simple syrup, so you get that sweet, the mint and then, of course, the bourbon on the end. I think I want to save some of that mint for gin and tonics. Oh, you totally should. Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of it there, yeah. That sounds really good, but this is delicious folks, any of it there?

2:07 so yeah, that sounds really good, but this is delicious folks. Oh yeah, oh lord, oh lord, says the person who does a lot of things that I should say oh lord too, but okay like what like that, what like oh, hey there, oh hey, there it is. I can't help it. I. I can't help it, I just can't help myself. Well, you know, it's all right. Anyway, welcome to the second episode of History Buffoons. Is this the second? episode. This is only the second episode. I feel like I've been doing this for three years already. Nope, we've done two episodes in three years. I make jokes a lot.

2:50 My son doesn't like that I joke a lot. He's actually told you that, stop joking he actually has told me that it's actually quite funny, to be honest, but either way, um well before we begin, why don't you go ahead and, uh, follow us on apple podcasts or wherever you listen, and give us a rate and a review by the end of this? it helps us a lot you can also visit us on instagram, facebook x and reddit and reddit uh all under uh history buffoons podcast. Pretty much can find us there. Yep, um, we'll have links available in the show notes, right, yes, or you can contact us at uh history buffoons podcast at gmailcom.

3:36 We would like some interaction with you, with your peeps yeah, like we'll respond to you and everything. Yeah, like no joke. It'll literally be Kater Bradley who says oh, hey there. Oh, hey there. Don't you know? Well, I suppose Wait that's not the end, my bad. I did that on purpose. Stop doing that Stop it. Stop it. Okay, so Bradley picked this topic. I did because I thought it was rather pivotal in our history because it expanded a lot of things for a lot of people.

4:19 Yeah, so we are going to be talking about Johannes Gutenberg, the supposed. Supposed is correct because Inventor. I mean shit, Didn't even know when he was born. I know they made up a birthday. There's no information on this dude, but also to not take away from that. I mean, history is very much documented, more so later in our history than before. They didn't know because they didn't write shit down. A lot of people couldn't even write or read, or so I mean yeah and that this guy supposedly uh kind of revolutionize, revolutionize that for a lot of people, especially in this day so so let's let's talk about the printing press and johannes gutenberg yes, let's do it.

5:12 so, while the exact origins of the printing press remain unknown, china does boast the world's oldest known printed text, dating back to the tang dynasty, and that is between 618 and 907 AD. That's a long time ago, sure is. Right before I was born. This text, the Diamond Sutra, is a Buddhist scripture that was discovered in Donghua, China. It was created around 868 AD and it is an example of block printing. Yeah, so what they did was they had hand-carved wooden blocks to transfer ink onto paper, similar to like a modern day rubber stamp, basically.

5:59 Yeah. I have a quick question though. Yeah. Is the Diamond Sutra the follow-up to the Kama Sutra? Sorry, continue Prequel Prequel. Denghua has also provided other printed finds from this era, including a calendar from 877 AD, educational materials and various guides on topics like mathematics, etiquette and ceremony. Kate doesn't have much etiquette and ceremony Kate doesn't have much etiquette Shh. Significantly, this period witnessed a shift from traditional scrolls to book formats, marking a major advancement in how information was preserved and distributed.

6:54 Furthermore, woodblock printing spread to neighboring countries like Japan and Korea. The printing world underwent a significant change. The churches, yeah yeah. With donations and alms for the poor, anyways. The printing world underwent a significant change thanks to Bi Shen of 970-1051 AD from Yingshan Hubei, china. He developed movable type, a system that replaced the clumsy carved blocks with individual reusable characters. So is it Bisheng Shen? Bisheng. Uh yeah, his method involved crafting characters from clay, baking them hard and arranging them in an iron frame.

7:40 This frame then was pressed against an iron plate to transfer the ink, so it made it much. Uh, oh damn, what's the word I'm looking for? Efficient? Yeah, that's, that's what I'm thinking of yeah. The first documented mention of this intervention appears in the 1086 book dream pool essays by scientist shen kuo. Shen kuo also sheds light on Bishen's material choice. Wood, with its inconsistent texture and tendency to absorb moisture in ink, was unsuitable. Baked clay, on the other hand, offered a cleaner and more reusable option. The Southern Song Dynasty, 1127-1279 AD.

8:20 D 11 27 to 12 79 ad, witnessed a surge in book production thanks to movable type. The widespread availability of printed materials fostered the growth of a scholarly class yeah, and because of that, you know, literacy was previously a privilege of a few people. It opened doors to government positions, which is kind of wild for a wider range of citizens because they just they weren't very learned people, which makes sense because they had no access to stuff like that. But they, owning extensive collections of printed books, became a mark of prestige for the wealthy, because they were very expensive, because they were expensive to produce even at that time.

9:05 I mean you've seen Beast Library beating the Beast? I mean it's massive, the library is amazing. I wish it was real. Well, Bishen's movable type was a groundbreaking invention. Woodblock printing saw a resurgence in 1297, thanks to Wang Chen, a magistrate from Qingti. Wang. Chen recognized the limitations of traditional woodblock methods and devised a way to make the wood more durable and precise. This improvement allowed for cleaner, high-quality prints. He also introduced a revolutionary revolving table to organize the characters, significantly increasing the speed of typesetting.

9:48 Wang Chen's ingenuity started in the creation of the Nong Shu, an essay on agriculture widely considered the world's first mass-produced book. This landmark publication not only spread knowledge about farming practices, but also found its way to Europe. Wang Chen's innovative woodblocking method remained the preferred printing method in China for centuries, a testament to its effectiveness. China for centuries a testament to its effectiveness. While the exact year of Johannes Gutenberg's birth remains a mystery, historians estimate it to be between 1394 and 1404, from the German city of Mainz.

10:36 Yeah, it's funny because he got an official. The symbolic official birthday was given June 24th 1400, which was chosen much later for a 500-year celebratory event of Johannes Gutenberg. So it's wild that they had no idea when his actual birth was. Yeah Saying, oh, we forgot. We forgot to write that date down, but at least they gave him a birthday. Yeah. I meanune 24th. That's a good day. You know why? That's when my kitty, sway, was born oh, your kitty sway he was my favorite cat ever. He passed away a few years ago. He was a good boy anyways so.

11:17 Born into a prominent merchant family, gutenberg was the second of three children, although others say he's the youngest of three, so they don't know what the hell, I guess people didn't write shit down back in 1400, or what was it between 1394? and 1404 yeah ah, this decade's off limits, just figure it out his father freely gen Freely Jen Slicer Laden. Say that three times fast, holy crap. Freely Jen Slicer Laden. Wow, I even have it somewhat phonetically spelled out. Freely Jen Slicer.

11:59 Laden. That is a hell of a name. That's his father. Yes, he was a respected, noble merchant. Some accounts suggest he even held a prestigious position as a goldsmith for the main bishop. Johannes' mother, elise Weyrich, came from a family with noble lineage, though they weren't considered nobility at the time of his birth. Details about Gutenberg's life and education are scarce. A common practice of the era involved adopting the house or property name as a surname. This means legal documents might reflect changes in his surname as he moved throughout his life. However, we do know he resided in the Gutenberg house within Mainz during his childhood and later years.

12:44 Unrest rocked mains in 1411 as craftsmen rose against the aristocracy. Caught in the turmoil, the gutenberg family, along with other over a hundred others, were forced to flee. It's believed they relocated to eldville and rhein, germany, where johannes might have enjoyed a more peaceful existence on his mother's inherited estate. Why was his name Gutenberg? But his dad was the really weird name. It has to do with where they were living, I guess. Oh really, yeah, well, that's what I just said. Yeah, okay, sorry, yeah, okay sorry, I don't know, but if he was in the Gutenberg house then his name was Gutenberg Yep Yep.

13:32 Historian Heinrich Wallow suggests Gutenberg may have pursued studies in goldsmithing at the University of Erfurt. Enrollment records from 1418 list a student named Johannes de Altavia. Additionally, evidence points to Johannes working alongside his father in the Mainz Mint potentially as a goldsmith's apprentice. Yeah, gutenberg's life between 1411 and 1434 really remains a mystery, because his father died in 1419 and he received an inheritance, but nothing is known between his life between 1419 and 1434. So it's again poor record keeping.

14:16 Finally, a letter surfaces in March 1434 placing him in Strasbourg, living with relatives of his mother. Here he might have found work as a goldsmith for the city's militia. While marriage and children never appear to be part of gutenberg's story, court records from 1436 and 1437 hint at a broken engagement to a strasbourg woman named enelin. The details surrounding this relationship remain lost to history as well. As well. A lot of things were lost to history back then by 1439, legal documents show Gutenberg planning a project to create mirrors for pilgrims. These mirrors were intended for a specific pilgrimage in 1440, but a partner's death led to a lawsuit when the festival was postponed due to floods.

15:05 The venture became ill-fated because the mirrors couldn't be sold as planned yeah, the lawsuit likely involved the investor's family wanting their money back. Uh gutenberg had presumably spent the invested funds on materials and labor for the mirror uh production so. But spend the money on the product. Can't sell the product, yep and so they were like well, where's our money back? And they're like I want that and he's like I don't got it he's all like have a mirror, yeah why don't you reflect sorry? with the festival delay, there was no way to recoup these costs and repay the investors. Gutenberg might have mismanaged the finances by promising to tell them a secret to potentially make up for the lost investment.

15:52 This implies that venture was already struggling financially before festival delay. Returning to Mainz, between 1444 and 1448, gutenberg established his famous printing press. Financial records show that he borrowed money from multiple sources, including a significant sum from Johannes Fest in 1450. So he was given 800 guilders, which is Netherlands currency before the euro, which is approximately $390, on two separate occasions to basically invest. He was invested in, I should say, by 1452, Gutenberg entered into a business partnership with Fest to continue funding his printing experiments.

16:35 Unfortunately, the specifics of Gutenberg's original printing method remain a mystery. The rapid spread of printing presses prevented documentation of his initial design. Discussions of his press rely on later models. However, historians believe Gutenberg leveraged his metalworking knowledge. And because of his metalworking knowledge, he likely created a metal punch with a carved letter and used it to strike a copper bar, forming a mold matrix. This matrix was then used to cast individual pieces of type from molten metal has to be really hot, unlike wood blocks. These reusable metal typefaces revolutionized printing because obviously the, the wood would break down or absorb blah, blah, blah, blah moisture and print and stuff, or ink I should say after crafting on the necessary characters they would.

17:29 They would be arranged in a rack for easy access. The printing press itself had two key elements a lower wooden plate and an upper plate. The type positioned face up would be placed on the lower plate plate platen ink was then applied Plate Platon Stuffed with wool. What did I say? Wood. Oh cool, Stuffed with wool and attached to wooden handles. There's the wood Damp paper, ideal for holding ink and creating a sharper impression, was laid on the inked type.

18:10 Finally, the operator would lower the upper plate and crank the press, creating the printed page. Once printed, the page was removed to dry and the process began again. I feel like I've used a lot of p-p-p-plate plate printed page Lots of Ps. Knowing the church could be a high-paying client. Gutenberg's early printing efforts included indulgences, which were certificates sold to lessen the time spent in purgatory, previously handwritten. The printing press allowed for mass production of indulgences with blank spaces for buyers and sellers. This increased sales for both the church and Gutenberg.

18:53 I think it's quite funny. It's like oh, you don't want to spend time in purgatory, Buy one of these. Yeah, I don't understand it either. I don't understand it because it's like you know what? Don't want to spend time in purgatory. Buy one of these. Yeah, I don't understand it either. I don't understand it, because it's like you know what would be really good for you. Maybe there's a prayer on there, or something. But like you have to purchase it and then you actually you can put your buyer and seller name on it. I know you're going to get to that, but it's like. You're going to take it with you to the afterlife, after life, hey if you don't want to spend more time in purgatory, buy one of these. It's a ticket. Yeah, pretty much it's a ticket out of purgatory, ticket out of purgatory. Gutenberg continued to refine his printing press and by 1455 had printed several copies of the Bible Consisting of three volumes in text and Latin.

19:34 The Gutenberg Bible featured 42 lines of type per page with color illustrations. Unfortunately, gutenberg didn't get to enjoy his innovation for very long. In 1456, his financial backer and partner, johann Fust, accused Gutenberg of misusing the money he had loaned him in 1450 and demanded repayment. Gutenberg claimed the second loan from Fust was a joint investment in their work of books, likely referring to printing. While the repayment amount remains unclear, the document suggests gutenberg used the funds for daily operations and potentially for the printing press itself financed by faust's initial loan.

20:19 this implies a partnership yeah, because gutenberg, he, he managed the workshop where fast was basically just the investor yeah but he wanted his money back he was like the silent partner yeah, and, and that's obviously come very common these days, but yeah, maybe not back then. He's like bitch, pay me my. Modern scholars argue against Fast ruining Gutenberg financially. Records show Gutenberg owned property in Mainz, repaid other loans and even witnessed property sales actions unlikely for someone who's bankrupt. There's no evidence the legal battle left him destitute. Their partnership ended, though.

21:00 Fast took over the workshop replacing Gutenberg with Peter Schofer, a skilled calligrapher. I believe he was also a son-in-law to Faust Of Gutenberg, of Faust, oh, of Faust, okay. Faust and Schofer then operated a joint printing press. After Faust's death, Schofer inherited the business and continued printing. Schofer made use of Gutenberg's press as soon as it was acquired, and he is considered to be a technically better printer and typographer than Gutenberg. Within two years of seizing Gutenberg's press, he produced an acclaimed version of the Book of Psalms that featured a three-color title page and varying types within the book.

21:45 One notable detail about this edition is the inclusion of a colophon Colophon right, I believe that's how you say it A colophon For the very first time in history. Do you know what a colophon is? I really don't. I don't even know how to pronounce it. I'm a buffoon first time in history. Do you know what a colophon? is. I really don't. I don't even know how to pronounce it. I'm a buffoon. Well, so am I. I think it's pronounced colophon, but it's a section ofa book that details publication information. So, like in a modern day book, one of the first few pages has the copyright copyright first edition. You know printing blah, blah, blah, blah blah. It's got all that information of who basically produced it. So that's like the, the origin story for for that mainly yeah, 10 copies of this edition of the book of psalms are still known to exist could you imagine having one of those?

22:33 that would be insane. That's got to be expensive. If there's 10 in the world to still exist, yeah, how cool would that be probably all in university libraries or museums or the like yeah, I mean library congress something, yeah big, probably has those, because if there's 10 and that's one of the earliest forms of printing that would just be insane to have there's also several copies of the bible, several that that are full Gutenberg Bibles. Yeah, what did I say you just said of the Bible. I'm just making sure. Yeah, gutenberg Bibles. There are several full copies out there, but then there are several like Remakes or copies no, they're truly Gutenberg Bibles, but there's only sections of them available.

23:17 Oh, so it's not the full thing, correct? Yeah. So I know of them available. Oh, so it's not the full thing correct? Yeah, so I know harvard has some, sure, and the university of indiana has some yeah, that seems weird to me, but there's a lot of universities that have sections of the gutenberg bible that makes sense. I mean, yeah, historic and you know, learning and so on. So meanwhile, the fast chauffeur shop was the first in europe to bring out a book with the printer's name and date. The mains, soita, soita of august 1457 and while proclaiming the mechanical process by which it had been produced, it made no mention of gutenberg. Johannes gutenberg also continued printing.

23:57 Scholars are confident that the, the famous Latin dictionary printed in Mays in 1460, known as the Catholicon, could only have been printed by Johannes Gutenberg. Famously, however, a printer's name is not listed in the colophon, and a new type, much smaller than that of the Gutenberg Bible, was used in this similarly monumental typographic undertaking. But Gutenberg ceased any efforts at printing after 1460, possibly due to impaired vision. He died in 1468 with little notice or acknowledgement of his contributions. He was buried in the cemetery of the Franciscan Church at Mainz.

24:42 So you're a big fan of world war ii, right? I am so I'm a big fan of learning about it, oh for sure um, yeah, buffoon. Um. So, because of where he was buried world war ii uh, the church and the cemetery were destroyed during that time and his grave was lost because of that. Yeah, that's crazy. Which it's funny. I mean, I get it because bombs blew up shit. It's just like to think of, like this historic person who is very beneficial for the world. Really, you have no idea where he's buried. Yeah, he's probably not buried anymore Cause he blew up. It's very possible. But either way, you know I get it so the invention of the printing press by johannes gutenberg in germany sparked a new and lucrative trade.

25:30 Workers who assisted gutenberg in his early experiments leveraged their knowledge to become printers themselves. These skilled individuals then spread their expertise across europe, establishing printing presses in various countries. Italy embraced the new technology quickly Following the arrival of the printing press in 1465,. Italian printers thrived by 1470, producing a wealth of printed materials. And I know, I call it Italian, not Italian. I only brought that up the one time because it's like me, I call it italian. But you had said italian italian, which I think is more proper, but I've. I don't know if you're italian let us know send in, or italian, I don't know.

26:16 This success story continued in France, where German printers were invited to set up presses at the Sol Bona in Paris just five years later. Their focus on printing textbooks catered to the student population and further fueled the growth of the trade. The demand for printing extended to Spain, with German printers establishing themselves in Valencia in 1473 and Barcelona in 1475. Portugal followed suit, welcoming printers to Lisbon in 1495. Meanwhile, william Caxton, an Englishman residing in Bruges, right let's go with that.

26:58 What'd you say? Bruges. Bruges. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that's how I've always heard it. Well, if he's reciting in bruges he's in belgium, so let's go he recognized the potential of gutenberg's invention. He traveled to cologne in 1471 to learn the printing craft with the intention of setting up his own printing press back in bruges. Yeah I think so. I think that's how it's pronounced upon returning to england, caxton established a press at westminster abbey, serving the monarchy as a printer until his death in 1491. This collaborative effort, spearheaded by german printers and fueled by individuals like caxton, solidified printing as a widespread and successful trade across europe.

27:47 The printing press, particularly particularly the invention of the movable type printing press by johannes gutenberg in the 1400s, was a revolutionary moment that completely reshaped the spread of knowledge and ideas. I thought this was actually extremely interesting here. So, before the printing press, information was painstakingly copied by hand. They had and I'm just trying to go off what I remember a lot of Franciscan monks used to. That's what they did is they hand-copied shit and that obviously took a lot of freaking time, because they're just doing it all by hand. Um, but making books.

28:29 That made books incredibly expensive, because if you weren't wealthy, you couldn't afford these books because there was very few of them and it took a long time to make. Um, but the printing press allowed for mass production of books and pamphlets, making knowledge far more accessible to the public, which this is the part I think is really awesome. It led to a surge in literacy, so like, hey, people can read and uh, so yeah, it got to just more people so they were able to learn. Basically, so, it's pretty revolutionary if you think about it. But, yeah, it's wider sharing of ideas. So, even though a lot of it was religious-based text back then, or books, I should say it got to way more people.

29:17 So that's pretty fascinating that creating this helps people to evolve in a way. Yes, by learning to read, because a lot of people didn't know how to read. So I don't know, I thought that was pretty interesting. It also helps streamline language in general, I know you get to, which is pretty fantastic because there's obviously a lot of variations of language from location to location. Even even within a short distance, they talked a similar dialect but at the same time it was it varied to a degree and it's like it really streamlined it and made it. This is what we do. Yeah, I mean that's.

29:57 That's awesome actually. So it also became a powerful tool for spreading revolutionary ideas, both religious and political. Martin Luther's 95 Thesis, a challenge to the Catholic Church, were widely disseminated thanks to the printing press, fueling the Protestant Reformation. Similarly, philosophical and political ideas of the Enlightenment era were easily shared and debated. With the mass production of printed materials, language began to be standardized, spelling and grammar became more consistent, fostering clearer communication and a stronger sense of national identity. Now italian is spelled italian, right, but you say italian, I say ital.

30:38 So now it's just a dialect difference, correct. But it's still spelled the same way. It's like it. I mean, you just pronounce the I more than I do, is all it is. The ability to easily share scientific discoveries and research through printed journals accelerated scientific progress. Which I found very fascinating as well. So, alongside what I just said, um, because b, people could actually write it down and then share it more, that people scientists could build upon each other's work more efficiently and leading to faster breakthroughs and innovation, so like it really accelerated a lot of we'll call them experiments, I guess, or even whatever but just because they're able to more, um, streamline what people were thinking and not just be like, hey, I heard this guy did this over here, let's work on that.

31:34 They could go off it and build on it and it really advanced a lot of things at that time, which is pretty fascinating because obviously science has been around for a long time. It's evolved greatly over the last 700 years, but you know quite awesome. With the help of reading and writing. Yeah, I mean, we just got to throw arithmetic in there and we're fucking set. The printing press fueled the development of newspapers and other forms of mass media. Printing press fueled the development of newspapers and other forms of mass media. This led to a more informed public and the rise of public sphere, where ideas could be debated and challenged. Overall, the printing press is considered a pivotal invention that ushered in a new era of communication, learning and social change.

32:15 It laid the foundation for the modern information age and the explosion of knowledge we see today, and that is the story of Johannes Gutenberg and the revolutionary printing press. So the last time, last episode, we had mentioned Ring Around the Rosie. We did. And we all thought it was about the plague. Someone tried to link it to the plague and apparently they are wrong. Okay, so you've got the real history on it well, I have some history on it. Okay, I don't know how real it is I'm ready to learn something or you know, yeah, uh. So basically, ring around the rosy, um was just a children's rhyme that they would sing.

32:57 Some people thought it was because, during a certain time, um, dancing was like a lot, and like even the states. At one point I'm like is this footloose? I know kevin bacon's gonna show up in a white t-shirt, that'd be great. I don't know about that. I do like kevin bacon, but um, basically, so they think it came from just children coming up with words. It's funny because there's even a quote saying as for the meaning of bring around the rosy, there may not be one at all. The Beatles, for example, often wrote nonsensical lyrics that they thought sounded good. I mean, he's not wrong, was there an?

33:38 example of that Of the. Beatles no, no, no, well, I mean Yellow submarine, I mean he's not wrong. Was there an example of that Of the Beatles? No, no, no, Well, I mean. Yellow Submarine. I mean, that's nonsense. I mean that is nonsensical. Who lives in a Yellow Submarine? Or, like I am, the walrus Cuckoo kichoo? I mean that's nonsensical, but it sounded good to their music For sure. But basically, but basically. Um, so this one guy back in 61, leaser lesser, whatever his name is, he tried to link it to the plague from. Oh, I've lost a year. I should have looked that up and had that readily available. Um, because there's the black plague. And then what was the other one called?

34:19 I don't remember, but oh, the bubonic plague, right um. Amos is playing with uh the chord your chord. So that's the yeah sorry about that folks. What? you're hearing is amos is getting a little frisky he wants to play but uh, yeah. So they don't know if it's either, uh, the, the great plague of london, um, or the bubonic plague, uh of the of the bubonic plague in 1665, but there also was another plague that happened in the 1400s, so they're not sure which one he's really referring it to. But basically, like ring around the rosy, um, which is weird because I found out that there's other variations of this nursery rhyme that says ring around the roses, it's like.

35:08 So it was a pocket full of poses. It's not very rhyming if you do it that way, but uh, I'll be honest, until I looked into this, I never realized it was referring to roses as rosy yeah I just thought of like a color, like your cheeks get rosy or something, yeah, but they think that he thought that the, the rose, the ring around the rosy, was like the um basically the, the markings that you got from the plague and like the red red rings on your whatever face or body or whatever, and that the pocket full of posies was to help things smell better.

35:49 Yeah. Which is I think I alluded to that in the last episode yeah, or also the ashes, ashes, ashes. We all fall down is like they thought was like for cremating the dead bodies and or the we all fall down people dying. Right. But apparently I also learned that during the time he thinks that the uh, it was linked. God darn it, cord, sorry, um is that you were. I think that was kind of both the the time frame that he links it to the plague. Apparently cremation was illegal in london until, like, it didn't get legalized again to like the 1800s, um, which also kind of makes sense, why they had to use graves, as I once stated, um, or maybe you haven't stated yet, yeah, you know what I mean anyways, um, so yeah, they banned cremmation so they couldn't burn people, so that didn't make any sense.

36:49 So basically, it doesn't mean anything and it has no link to the plague. It was just a fun thing that kids did and they literally held hands and went in a circle singing this and then they would literally just fall down when they said we all fall down. That's lame. I mean, yeah, you think about songs, though I mean there doesn't have to be meaning to songs. Again, there's might be some underlying meanings that you just never know. But they don't even actually know when it was created. Some people think it was in the 1800s, some people think it's been around since the 1400s, so it's really got. And of course, back then, which, um, you know, things were more passed along by talking to people instead of printed or written.

37:37 Things were, you know, obviously communicated, just like I'm gonna tell you this, you remember it, and it's like the telephone game where you're gonna get shit wrong. So that's why they also believe, um, some of the variations of the different thing. Um, because they basically people discount it being about the plague, because it does. It varies so much and if it was actually about a specific thing, it wouldn't vary as much. But again, I tell you something. You go tell someone else and they tell 20 other people, whatever, you're gonna screw it up yeah so I see where he could have maybe got that from. But yeah, apparently it's, it's little, it's literally nothing that's weird disappointing, I know, um, like this one.

38:23 There's one version of it which I found kind of funny, which is ring a ring a rosy, which I never heard it that way personally. No, uh, a bottle full of posy. No, all the girls in our town ring for little josie round the ring of roses, pots full of posies. So again, terrible rhyming like so am I supposed to say, poses, um, the one stoops the last shall tell whom she loves the best. Have you ever heard that version of ring around the rosy? Because I have not maybe that's verse two. I don't think there was a verse two was there but either way, um but yeah.

39:03 So I think some people look for stuff, uh, look for meaning that's not there all the time. That's fair. You know, maybe he was bored in 1961 and James Lesser just wanted to write something that people would be like oh, look at him. Isn't it crazy, though, how something from that long ago is still a thing. That's the thing, because, whether it was even from, if it was from 1880, whatever, I mean, that's still quite a while ago, but no, it's probably been around for a lot longer than that, probably been around for close to 600 plus years. Ring around the rosy pockets full of posy ashes, ashes we all fall down See that's the version I always knew.

39:45 I never knew there was a different version of that. That's the version I always knew. I never knew there was a different version of that. Yeah, which is kind of wild to me because, um again, we grew up in, uh, even being born before the internet, you still had more books and everything, and so on you could read yeah um, whereas then again they could have fucked it all up in the retelling of it to other people. But the fact that it's some variation of it's lasted that long is pretty great yeah, that's crazy yeah so they're ringing around. Rosy apparently means nothing. Nothing or it means everything, or it's about the plague, I don't know you. You be the judge wow, so anyway.

40:28 So yeah, so that's, uh, one of our nursery rhymes that we learned about Cool yeah. So there you go. I suggested Johannes because I love books. I know you like books too. I collect books. Kate likes to expel her collections. I like to get rid of clutter. If I've read a book and it's not something that I'm like dear to, I'm gonna pass it on to somebody else for me personally, if I read a book, I'm instantly dear to it, though yeah, I like I have some kind of like I don't know, I will just say connection yeah I don't know what it is, but um, especially a book I really like.

41:09 Like, my favorite author is ann rice. I have all of her books. I even have some I haven't read yet because my add, it's a real thing. Um, doesn't allow me to read all the time yeah, because I get a squirrel, but um that's why I like I drive a lot, so I like listening to books over. I really like audiobooks however, I love feeling pages yeah turning the page, you know what's gonna happen in this next chapter. I know you can get that with audiobooks, but I just I like the physical form yeah, I do listen to audiobooks too. I much prefer books to audiobooks, but I focus better with audiobooks. But I can't do ebooks. I I struggle hard with ebooks.

41:51 I do too um, I I can't look at my ipad and just like, yeah, scroll to the next page. I like that physical form. If I'm not getting that, then it's audiobook. Yeah, and I know you drive around a lot for work, like going to from where you live to work and so on, so you get significant car time to listen to them. I don't get as much for that, but I do like to listen to some if I can. But yeah, it's the physical form of book and Johannes Gutenberg in essence made that possible. Now, would that have eventually happened? Probably, but yeah, he's the one who started it really or mainstreamed it, mainstreamed it yeah like you said, the chinese, chinese, right, yeah, it's the first ones.

42:38 Yeah, you know, they had a form of it, but it wasn't like actually a printing press. They just had some type of type setting and so on, where his was more, you could make more copies at the same time, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Anyways, um, but yeah, no, I thought that was pretty interesting because, well, yeah, you honest, whenever you were born I mean I've got like the harry potter series in the hunger game series and I really like brene brown and her she's not familiar she is lovely, she.

43:18 She is a professor at the university of texas, I believe, and she is also a social worker, um, but she does a ton of research on vulnerability. Oh, fair enough. So I've got many, if not all, of her books. Gotcha. And then I have a lot of Pride and Prejudice books. Well, that is your favorite book. That is my favorite book. Jane Austen correct. I have many a copy. Jane Austen, right yeah. So if I get another Pride and Prejudice book, I take something else out, because, god forbid, you get rid of a Pride and Prejudice book right. That's awesome. I just don't want to get to the point where I have to get rid of a Harry Potter book. No, no, you don't want to do that.

43:59 Well, recently I purchased a Prisoner of Azkaban first edition and I gave you my old one because it didn't have the cover. I got it on ebay years ago. Um, I am a big fan of trying to get first editions of books that I love or authors that I follow, kind of thing. Um, do you, uh, do you like fiction or non-fiction? Better, what's your favorite? I prefer historical fiction. I know it's a little bit of both, yeah that's okay but I like stories that are made up in in eras that were real, that were well, so like well I think you didn't, you didn't care for it, you only did the audiobook.

44:42 But, like, one of my favorite books is the historian yeah which is very fitting for our podcast because we're history buffoons, but it's historic fiction of Dracula, basically Elizabeth Costava, I think, if I'm saying her name right, that is one of my favorite books. I know it's not for everybody, you didn't care for it as much as I did, but again, my AD, my add I started it three years later. I finished it, yeah, and like, not like, it didn't take me three years to finish it. I read like the first three chapters stopped for three years and then I picked it up and finished it.

45:23 I didn't start over, I picked it up from where I left off. That's how my brain works. It's really goofy, which I hate because I would love to read more books. I just am never in the setting, especially with two little kids. That makes it feasible to read all the time. But yeah, I like historical fiction as well. I like nonfiction to a degree, but I prefer fiction basically. Like I said, Anne Rice, all of her vampire books and, um, well, all of her books. Honestly, she's my favorite author, so it was sad when she passed, but, um, I always wanted to meet her in person. I do have some signed books, but I never met her in person, which was unfortunate yeah. I wouldn't mind meeting your son though, Christopher.

46:05 That'd be kind of cool. He's also an author as well. Took after Mama. Awesome. I don't think I've ever read any of his stuff, but he did collaborate with her as well. But I do like Harry Potter and Gregory Maguire, who wrote Wicked. Oh yeah, the book Not not not the musical which Kate likes. If you have the hard cough, hard book hard cover. That's the one of the original. Wicked bradley would like it oh my god, I would love it. It is super hard to find first edition hardcover, because most of his early work seemed to be all in paperback.

46:47 Yeah, but their hardcovers are out there. For a price For a significant price? Yeah, I have. There's a handful of authors that I follow and I like and, honestly, I think we're talking about this all because of you. You know what I really enjoy about this at all, because of you know what I really enjoy, um, I really enjoy the historical foundation and art history foundation of dan brown books oh yeah, I love dan brown books and I like the movie's adaptations. Honestly. Yeah, I did too. I I find it funny that, uh, the da vinci code, the Da Vinci Code has such backlash.

47:28 Oh my gosh, yeah, but like the history is just so fascinating it really is. He does great work in his, in his research, yes To in his writings, because obviously they're fictional, but he brings a lot of that, like you said, historic fiction, into it. I love that too. Yeah, yeah, that's great, he incorporates, great, he incorporates he incorporates it very well and I think the movies are great. Be honest, like honestly, and tom hanks is fabulous. Well, I enjoy his works, lieutenant dan ice cream, but uh no, I I do like the, the research and and whatnot. It's very well written by Dan Brown. I enjoy that. But um, what's the second, second movie?

48:10 But it's a prequel. I'm why angels, angels and demons. I love that movie yeah. I also. I'm a big fan of Ewan McGregor. Go Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah, he's great too. Yeah, side note has nothing to do with whatever we're talking. Ewan McGregor has a brother in the. I guess, whatever the English military is called, he's a pilot. Do you know what his call sign is? No OB2 that's awesome that's pretty fantastic. I'm also a big Star Wars fan. I love science fiction. Alright, buffoons. That's it for today's episode buckle up, because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you. Next time feeling hungry for more buffoonery, or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore hit us up on social media.

48:59 We're history buffoons podcast on reddit x, instagram and facebook. You can also email us at historybuffoonspodcast at gmailcom. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop. Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us. Remember, the buffoonery never stops. Hey hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.