Mr. Phips Wild Ride: Sir William Phips

Episode Warmup And Brewers Talk

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Oh hey there.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Oh hey there.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I'm Bradley.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

I'm Kate.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

It's the history of buffoons.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Yes, it is. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yeah, I always seem so surprised when I say that. Like, oh, that's what we're doing right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I think it's more along the lines of, after two years, I'm still a buffoon?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I still think we've actually gone the wrong way. Ret row. That's why we record everything. Um, so we have a rare early recording, so we're doing uh wild today. I am currently today, I'm a Queen Bay, if you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Yep, I gave you that one because it's not uh I don't know. This one just it's it's hard to like drink from, so I actually pour it into its lid.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Which is like a cup, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

But like this was from a coworker.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah, when you left.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Um, so every Christmas at Massage Envy, um, we had like a gift exchange, a secret Santa, and the person who got me gave me this. It is just it is so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, I've I've I've obviously seen yours, but I've I've seen that around actually, which is wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Really? Yeah, I it is like the coolest thermos. Um and girl. And it's it's a little girly. There's a couple little girly things, so I don't know. I just really love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

You mean like the lipstick look, like lips on there or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

There's lips on there?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Turn turn it back the other way.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Oh yeah, there's lips.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, that's that'd say that's girly.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

There's lips, there's hearts, there's smiley faces, there's a daisy, a rainbow, but then all the brewer stuff. Just I love it. I love it so much. And the brewers clinched their division title and a few nights ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

They won last night one more win. We tie our uh record uh number of wins in a season.

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So hopefully that will be today.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Hopefully that will be today at around three o'clock. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So yeah, I I'm really excited about the brewers. I mean, I love you know how much I love the brewers. I got you into the brewers.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

You really did. I I love watching watching the brewers.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, it's they're just a lot of fun to be fested. I'll be vested. They're just a lot of fun to watch, you know. They are fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Um but uh they're like the traditional comeback kid kind of a vibe.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

The underdog. Yeah, because small market, all that shit. We've always been the underdog, but we've never been like this. Yeah, we set our record last year for wins, but we I feel so much more con I'm not again getting ahead of myself, knock on some wood, but I feel way more confident about our team this year than I did last year going into the postseason. So we had a lot of injuries leading into the postseason. We had a bye, which helped, but it didn't help because we got so white. Anyways, not to get ahead of ourselves. I'm just enjoying the ride right now. For sure, for sure. They're playing, they're playing awesome. So I gotta stop hitting my microphone stand

Meet William Phipps From Rural Maine

SPEAKER_00 3:20

because I won't blit.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So today we are gonna talk about the life of William Fitz.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

William Fitz.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yes. Um I forgot to check on something.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

And I was gonna do that before we started this podcast today because there's a little tie-in to an old episode that we did.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

And maybe maybe when I get to it, you'll remember it, and I won't have to be that person that has to pause the the recording and go back and re-reread my my notes. Um, but uh William Fitz, um, he grew up a poor man, um, went into uh shipbuilding and then um he was a treasure hunter and he ended up being governor of Massachusetts. Um but there's a a nice little wave throughout his life, so okay, like a rogue wave? In parts, in parts, yeah. Okay, yeah. No, he's kind of a cool dude.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, yeah. So what what time are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

1600s.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, I th I thought it was like he was like one of the first governors of Massachusetts or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Did you know that before I said governor of Massachusetts?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

No, but it jogged my memory when you said it.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

So I I don't know really anything about him, but yeah, I I've heard the name, I think, before, but I also could be just fucking it up in my brain.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Um I'm gonna have a nice little sit down. Yep, I'm gonna have some water and this water bottle you gave me is just so weird because it's got a straw. I know I don't want to tip it all.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I know. I I've gotten better about not tipping it because I'm yeah, not used to a straw either, but I like my water bottle.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Well, as long as you like it, and thank you for letting me uh have some water out of it during the podcast today. All right, William Fitz.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

All right, William Fitz was born February 2nd of 1651.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Um, and it it was a small settlement um called Nickwasett.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

But now Did you just have an air bubble in your throat?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Okay, because it sounded like something through I'm like maybe I didn't, I didn't feel it.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Now it's called Woolwich, Maine. So he was born up in Maine. What was then Nickwasett?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I should I should have my brother go visit his hometown.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Woolwich, Maine.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I don't know. I wonder how far that do you have any idea where in Maine that is?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I did not, that was not part of my research because that's the only time I'm mentioning it.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

I figured that's why I said don't worry about it. I just I wonder where that is in relation to where my brother is as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

But this was like a northeastern edge of an English settlement.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Um, scattered farms and forests and waterways, communities, um, and very much like just kind of a nice little community.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So at this point he would be considered British then, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yes. All right, yes. Phipps later became the subject of a biography. Did you say Phipps? Phipps, William Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

I thought you said Fitz. Phipps. Like with a Z, I'm sorry. No, wow, I misheard that.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

H-I-P-S, like like Philip, but Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Right. I I could my head heard Fitz, like F-I-T-Z.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Gerald.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, my my apologies. No, that's okay. I'm glad we cleared that up earlier on.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Maybe I misspoke too. I don't remember what I just said, so.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

What?

SPEAKER_01 6:52

What?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Water.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Where am I? Anyway, he later became the subject of a biography.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

And if I remember, I didn't write it down, but if I remember later on, I'll tell you who wrote that biography.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Oh, someone we've done?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Perhaps. No, but you would know it. Oh. You would know this person.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

So, um, this biography took some liberties.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Like most do really. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So some of the things I refer back to the biography, take it with a grain of salt.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um, like this biography biography said that James had like 26, excuse me, William had like 26 brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

I don't think that's possible.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

So um, what I did find was that William was one of six born to his father, James.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Why would the biography say that? I'm not sure. That seems really ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Well, James was a gunsmith, and he ended up dying when William was young. And um, his mother Mary um married James's business partner. Um I don't even think I freaking wrote his name down because it don't matter. No. But she gave birth to an additional eight children with with her second husband.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

So she had six with her first husband, he died.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

And potentially eight with her second husband.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

See that even that 14, that sounds more realistic for the time. Than like 28. Not 26 or 28, whatever the number was, because that that is insane.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So William did not come from like an elite New England family. Okay, there was no inheritance, there was no prestigious education, and no like extended family connections or anything.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So much of his youth, um, he was just kind of working the family farm, tended livestock, um, very little schooling, and apparently he didn't learn to read until he was like a young adult. Oh wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

So by the time that he was around 18 years old, he decided that tending animals was no longer in his trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Um, so he left home to learn the shipbuilding trade. Obviously, this is colonial New England, so shipbuilding is a huge market. Oh, yeah, I mean huge trade. Um it they the area was just abundant with trees, wood, timber, um, all the same things.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

So he learned to become a skilled craftsman.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Did they have bark there too?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

I'm pretty sure, maybe even some leaves. I'm not sure. How about some roots? Uh-huh. But apparently he was pretty good at it. So over the next several years, Phipps learned the trade before eventually moving south to Boston. And here, Boston's a completely different world than where he grew up. Right. By the six no doubt. Yeah, by the 1670s, it was probably one of the most important English settlements in North America. Yep. Um, merchants, ships, warehouses, tradescrafts, craftsmen, tea parties, um, tea parties in my right, ministers, you know, wealthy families. And if William Fitz wanted to become anything more than a ship carpenter, um this is where he needed to start, was Boston.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

I really want to go back to Boston and but have enough time to see some historical stuff because when I was there when I was 14, I just I loved it. But man, I really my ear itches. I apologize. That's weird. Um, I really want to go back there though. That'd be fun to see as an uh uh an adult who appreciates history even more than it did, you know, yeah 33 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

So maybe we take like uh the family, my husband, your wife, and your kids, and we all go to Boston and do like a a New England trip and that'd be that'd be kind of fun, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Because I don't know how much my kids would appreciate it, but maybe they're a little I know Vesper is too young right now to do it, but Xavier probably wouldn't care. Yeah. But like, hey, look at they made a Pokemon card there. Like, cool. Hey, look at they wrote the Declaration of Independence there. What? You know, or whatever, you know, something ridiculous as well. I'm trying to make it seem, but yeah, maybe, maybe in a few years.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

In our um episode about draw um Paul Revere and uh was it William Douglas? Something I don't remember. I'll have to go back and listen to my own story. That's why we did it. But we we talked about where everything was now in present day, and like Paul Revere's house was like right down the street from a Starbucks.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, which is shit. Which it's like that's just so sad.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

It's sad, but it's it's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I mean, I get it, I understand, and you know, things develop, grow, whatever, but yeah, just like you think about it in that context, it's like that is lame.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

And it's probably not something that they're like, you know what, we need to preserve this entire street, you know, that kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

So probably not for the longest time, and things changed over the years, especially even back then, yeah. Well before there was a Starbucks or a McDonald's or whatever. For sure. Just you know, well, this house is crumbling, let's build a new one, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, and it's more modern

Marriage Money And A Brick House

SPEAKER_01 12:20

and it's it's got electricity and ha ha. So um, shortly after arriving in Boston, he actually got married. Um, there's no surviving documents uh indicating how they met, um but it was in 1673, all right, and he married Mary Spencer Hull, who was a widow at the time. Oh uh Mary brought um something to the marriage that William didn't have a lot of yet, and that was money. Oh she had property, she had financial security um because of her um survivorship. So um her previous husband had been a merchant, and through the marriage, William gained um a little bit more of a comfortable position in Boston society.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

So did she have kids from her previous marriage? No, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Um, their marriage lasted for the rest of his life. Oh, wow. Yeah, and William repeatedly kind of disappeared on ambitious adventures, and Mary just kind of remained just an important part of life, like throughout his little adventures. Like she was supportive and that's good. Yeah, so he continued working as a uh shipwright and eventually constructed a ship of his own. Oh now, for a man who had grown up tending livestock, he had learned his trade as an apprentice and eventually owned a vessel um of his own, but he wanted something a little bit bigger, and according to this biography, yeah, um, Fitz supposedly told Mary, his wife, early in their marriage that he intended to become the captain of a king's ship or a royal navy ship. Okay, um, and that someday he would have a fine brick house in Boston. I know.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

I mean, that's what people strive for back then.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

I strive for a smaller house.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I want a tiny house.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

I want a I want a smaller house with not as many um things.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Clutter. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Clutter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

All right, move on.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Okay.

First Treasure Hunt Ends In Mutiny

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah. So he was constantly looking for that next opportunity to move upward. Okay. Um, ordinary shipping wasn't enough for him anymore. By the late 1670s and early 1680s, um, there were stories that he heard of lost Spanish treasure. Well, naturally. Yeah. Spanish ships carrying enormous quantities of silver and other valuables had been crossing the Atlantic for generations. Yep. Storms, reefs, navigation errors, warfare had sent a lot of those ships to the bottom of the of the ocean.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Can you imagine how much is still out there that they have? Oh my gosh, don't they just kind of give you like the tingleys? Yeah, because like I want to go find it. I know. There's no way in fuck I could afford, first and foremost, with Ford to go, or would I want to be able to go all the way down there? Because I probably couldn't. I mean, I don't want to be like, well, how long, how many years ago was that that people went down to try and see the Titanic and that thing just imploded? Because it was shoddy workmanship, basically. I wouldn't want that to happen to me.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

So yeah. I mean, it would be fun to go find it, but in maybe not so deep oceans.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Well, in this situation, they don't have to have deep sea diver type of vessels.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

They held their breath.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Uh no. So no.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

So people went looking for these treasures. Um, salvage was its own business, right? So if someone could locate a wreck and organize an expedition, obtain the legal authority and recover its cargo, there was potentially a huge amount of money to be made off of this. And for William Fitz, this was a shortcut he wanted to try.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

So instead of spending decades uh accumulating his wealth slowly, um, one successful expedition could transform his life, right? So Phipps had heard about a wreck near the Bahamas that supposedly still contained valuable cargo, so he went looking for it. It's not documented how he found the wreck wreckage, um, but an expedition required a ship and crew and equipment, permission, and provisions, everything. Yeah, so Phipps needed investors, and somehow this poorly educated colonial shipbuilder proved really good at convincing powerful people to make that a reality. Right. He traveled to England and eventually managed to secure support from the English crown. That's wild. King Charles II agreed to provide Phipps with a royal ship, the Rose of Algiers is what it was called, and it was for a treasure hunting expedition. So in 1683, it's crazy. I know. It's like I'm just gonna go across the Atlantic real quick and secure a boat, and I'm gonna go back down to the Bahamas.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

It's just wild that he had to go from Boston to England, then back, and now down to the Bahamas.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

You know, I don't think carrier pigeons were quite a thing back then.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

I don't think carrier pigeons went across the ocean either.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I know. So he reached the Bahamas for the wreck that he believed was there, and he found one.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Excuse me. Did he find one? Did he find the right one? Or he just found a wreck?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

No, he found a wreck, but it also wasn't the jackpot he was hoping for. Of course not. It did produce some treasure, um, but nowhere near enough to justify the scale of operation that he had. Right. Um, so months months passed trying to find uh this wreckage, and the crew became frustrated.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I uh I was surprised. I mean, they're like, dude, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, exactly. And Phipp kept trying to search and search, and eventually some of the men decided that they had had enough.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Did they mutiny?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

According to accounts of the voyage, yes, part of the crew mutinied and attempted to seize the ship and turn it into a piracy operation. Oh so they were going full on. They were, but Phipps somehow heard of the plot and he managed to regain control, and the expedition was uh he ended the expedition on a positive note, I guess. Let's go home. Yeah, like, oh, I see things are happening here, so let's just go home.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

So, what you're telling me is you're frustrated. Why don't we just go home?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

What you're telling me is so he returned to England without the enormous fortune that he had promised.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

So he had to go all the way back to England. Uh is it to give the ship back? Yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

So while he had failed to find enough treasure to make the expedition worthwhile, he had learned something a little bit more important.

The Concepcion Wreck Pays Off

SPEAKER_01 19:08

There was another wreck. So while he was down there searching, he learned of another one, a much bigger wreck. Phipps had begun hearing about a Spanish ship that had gone down decades earlier, somewhere north of Hispan Hispaniola. Right. Yes. I did not realize what Hispaniola was. No. So for the people who don't, it isn't the island where the Dominican Republic and Haiti is. The countries of Dominican Republic and Haiti. So I did not know that. Yes. So people had searched for it before.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Some trevor treasure had been recovered, but the actual like ship was never found because you know currents change and things drift, and yeah, it just reminds me always, like this whole episode so far is just I keep thinking of the movie Fool's Gold with Matthew McConaughey. Oh, I've never seen it. Kate Hudson. It's one of those like kind of like silly. I don't want to call it a romantic comedy, but it's more or less a rom-com kind of feel to it. I like Matthew McConaughey, and I oddly enough really like that movie. But he there's one point where he's like, he's describing like you ever hear the term missed by an inch, missed by a mile, because the ocean and the currents and everything. He's explaining it as that in the movie, and that just that fucking scene is going over the movie.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, absolutely. I'll have to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

It's uh again, it's not the Odyssey by Christopher Nolan, but it's it's it's enjoyable. Good. I enjoy it, and uh uh Kevin Hart's in it, who is supposed to be Cat Williams, but apparently he got arrested or something right before they were filming. I I heard a weird story about that. It's either arrest, I don't remember. I don't want to speak out of turn. I I don't know the details, but I don't know. It's uh it's a decent movie.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Good. I'll have to watch it because you you own it, right? Yeah, yeah, I'll have to watch it sometime. Yeah, okay. So Phipps was consent convinced that the cargo was still there.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

The ship had been underwater since 1641. Jesus. So more than 40 years has passed at this time. Yeah. And obviously finding it would require another expedition. How does he learn about these? While he was down in the Bahamas, that's when he learned about this additional.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Hey, I know you're searching for this boat, but there's another one that sent a few decades ago.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, and the crew's like, We're gonna take over and return and turn to piracy. And he's like, I gotta go back to England, drop them off, and I'll come back.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

I need a fresh crew. Yeah. A loyal crew.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

So William Fitz then had to return to England and somehow convince another group of wealthy men to give him money, even though his last hunt failed. And somehow he did. The ship uh William Phipps was now looking for was this sorry, sorry. The the ship that he was looking for was called The Nuestra Senora de la Pura Illimpia Concepcion.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

They need to shorten that shit up.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

They could shortened it to Concepcion.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Okay, good. Because damn, that's a long ass fucking name.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

It is. Nuestra. Is that new? Or is that Nuevo?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Don't ask me. This is where I really become a buffoon.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, so during his time in the Caribbean, he had gathered information about the Concepcion. He knew approximately where she had gone down. He knew salvagers had discovered treasure from the wreck earlier. And he also believed a substantial portion of her cargo was still there. But why do you think he believed that? I'm assuming that they knew how much was on this ship versus how much people have recovered.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Typically, there's logs even back then. They would log everything like, all right, five chests of gold, you know. Well, they found one. There's still four. Whatever. Right. Whatever, you know. And that's if people who found the treasure it, yeah. That's my point, I guess. What I'm getting to is like, why does he believe this? Why does he think no one else found this? I mean, 40 fucking years though, yeah, that this went down, and I'm sure people no one has tried since. Yeah, that seems unlikely.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Or been successful since. Yeah, we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Seems unlikely, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

But King Charles II was not interested in funding another attempt. He's like, no, you kind of screwed it for the rest of us, you know. So Phipps had already been given his chance with the royal vessel. Um, Phipps needed somebody else with deep pockets. So a group of private investors agreed to finance another expedition with a supporter named Gozuntite.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

That was German, not British.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Either way.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

The supporter was Christopher Monk, the Duke of Abel Marley.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Abel Marley? That sounds like a weird kind of like liquor. Hey, you got any more of that Abel Marley? Let's make one. I don't think so. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

So um Abelmarley was wealthy, influential, and willing to gamble on Phipps' claim.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

So this time Phipps would sail aboard the James and Mary.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

At least it was a shorter name.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Coincidentally, his parents' names.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Isn't that wild? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

I mean, it's kind of like meant to be. Yeah. So did he find the treasure then?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

In s September of 1686, he left England and crossed the Atlantic once again. But knowing that the Concepcion had wrecked somewhere near Hispaniola was very different than knowing where the actual ship was. Right. There were no precise coordinates waiting in some kind of archive. So the wreck had been underwater for more than four decades. Coral had grown over portions of it, currents had scattered, scattered the debris, and the surrounding area contained reefs and shoals and miles and miles and miles and miles of open water. Yep. So rather than immediately wandering around the ocean, hoping somebody just looked over the side and be like, oh, there it is. He established a base of operations in the Caribbean and began searching for information. Sure, it makes sense. So one of the most important clues came from people familiar with the earlier salvage attempts. The Spanish had not abandoned the Concepcion after it sank in 1641. Salvaged had located the wreck and recovered parts of its cargo, and Phipps was able to gather information about where that had taken place.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So that led him towards the reef north of Hispaniola that would eventually become famous as the Silver Bank. It is a shallow bank about 75 miles north of the island. Okay. So even then, the search area was enormous. Phipps sent out a smaller vessel, so he stayed on the larger one and sent out a smaller one to examine the reefs. Yeah. Um, and then according to a later account, the breakthrough came almost by accident.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

A lot of them do, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Members of the crew were searching around a reef when one of the men noticed a plant, a random plant coming out of a reef. And it is later described as being called a sea feather. Okay. Never heard of it. Me either. Um, there was nothing suspicious about it, but for whatever reason, the diver wanted the plant. Oh. So he held his breath and he went down to go pick the plant. And while he was underwater, he noticed a cannon.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

That's a pretty good accident giveaway. Well, yeah. It's something else there.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

So it obviously didn't really look much like a cannon anymore. It had growth over it, it became part of the reef. But obviously, that metal's not supposed to be here.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

That ain't natural.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

So the me the men began searching around, and that's when one of the divers found silver. He returned to the the surface and brought a piece of the silver with it. And the men now knew that they were looking in the general area. Wow. Actually, they were on top of it. They were literally on top of the wreck. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So word got back to FEPS, who was still on the larger vessel. Yeah. Once they started bringing treasure up, it it literally just happened over and over and over. Silver coins, silver bars, just all this precious cargo. And the scale that of what they had found was quite extra extraordinary. They the crew worked for weeks bringing up this cargo.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Well, you gotta remember too, they're diving without oxygen tanks or anything. They don't have like, I mean, they might have some type of pulley system, crane, whatever over the side of the boat. Yeah. But nothing like what we have today, obviously. So it's gonna take a lot longer.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, isn't that amazing though? That's wild. Yeah. So divers would hold their breath using what limited diver technology they might have had at the time, repeatedly going down, but it was relatively shallow, as I had mentioned, but still dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Especially to start pulling like heavy pieces out of the water, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

But every successful trip brought more wealth aboard. And eventually, Phipps unfortunately had another problem. I have a niche note.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Oh, that's your problem. I know what was Phipps' problem.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Um, he had so much treasure, he had to worry about people, the people helping him recover it.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

So there was no police force, no, no Navy, you know, no bank vault. Um, Phipps was sitting in the Caribbean with an a ship carrying an enormous fortune and a crew who knew exactly what was on board. Yeah. Phipps had already experienced a mutiny before. Yeah. He understood perfectly well that desperate sailors might do de desperate things.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Desperate measures. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

So he made them a promise. Although the exact wording varies in different accounts, Phipps assured the crew that they would receive a fair share of the recovery, even if the formal terms of their employment didn't require such a especially generous portion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like one of those practical decisions that he made.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Well, I mean, you see uh these people see all this shit being pulled up. It's like, well, fuck, let's just take him out and we got this. Exactly. And let's dimmy it up, boys. But if you guarantee, yeah. Yeah, if you preemptively say, hey, you guys will get a cut of this, so don't touch it. Yeah. Kind of thing. I mean, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah, so fucking hell. A crew that it could become a crew that believed it would become rich by keeping Phipps alive was considerably less incentive to throw FIPS overboard. So they or anybody for that matter. So the the crew agreed and the recovery continued. Yeah. By the time Fitz finally left the wreck, his expedition had recovered treasure valued at roughly, and this is 1668 or whatever I said.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

80 something.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

200,000 pounds. Wow. Back then. I could not translate what that would be in today's money.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

No, that's there's just no so 2,000 English pounds is what you're calling it? Yeah. That's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

That's a lot of money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Whatever. I mean, yeah, that amount today would be millions, I would assume.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I mean, wow. Probably hundreds of millions. Probably. Yeah. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Because that's almost half a million pounds.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Half a million pounds. Two thousand?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Not half a million, a quarter of a million. I can do math sometimes. Almost a quarter of a million dollars.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Is it though?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Two thousand pounds is almost.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Two hundred thousand.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Okay. I think he's at two thousand. Fuck! You can see, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Um I'm not a numbers person.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

That that's uh that's my job of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Good lord. The wreck was roughly two hundred thousand pounds. Which I cannot translate to today's money. That makes so much more sense. Did I literally say 2,000? I want to say you did. I really hope that's wrong. I really hope I was right initially. That is almost a quarter of a million dollars.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

How is 2,000 pounds anywhere close to a quarter?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Good lord. I'm just gonna pack up.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

All right. Well, well. Good grief. All right, well, we'll it happens.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So Phipps um brought back the the cargo to England. Yeah. He also could have disappeared with the money.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

And that's things. So these investors invested in this expedition. Does he get like what does he get out of it?

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Because technically I will I will tell you. Okay. I do have that number.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

All right, good. Because I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah. Um, so he returned to England and divided um according to divided the cargo according to the financial agreements he had. Um, the investors made an enormous profit. I'm sure the Duke of Almarley received a substantial return. The crew received their shares, and William Phipps received somewhere around 11,000 pounds.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Wow, that's still pretty good back then. Still pretty good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

And I'm sure the crew was a lot less. I didn't look into that at all.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I I would imagine they were less. They should be. He was the captain, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

So and the organizer, and he did all the work and he's the one who set it all up.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

I mean, so I didn't look into though if he uh actually made some trips down to the ship or not. I didn't look into that. That would have been interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, I wonder if he did, because he wasn't really the diver. So I mean, maybe I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

I hope, I hope he at least tried.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

You would hope so, but yeah, I'd be like, I'm good, I see it there. I see you guys bringing it up. Just continue on. Yeah, take a deeper breath next time with Oblivion. Jesus. Seriously, we need to speed this up. Fuckers. That may be another mutiny if he said that to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

So Phipps was suddenly wealthy, but money was not the only reward. When Phipps returned to England in 1687, news of the discovery made him famous. King Charles II.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Who passed on the second one?

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Huh?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

He passed on the second expedition. Yes. Wow. Do you not remember that at all?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

I'm I'm thinking ahead here.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Well, I'm thinking backwards.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

King Charles II, which is the brother of Charles the Second, yeah, um, recognized his achievement and was knighted.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

He got knighted.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

He got fucking knighted, sir William Fitz.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

I feel like that is a weak form. That's like bastardizing the whole meaning of being knighted.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Okay, so this is where I got confused. King Charles II was the one that did not give him the second.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

King James II.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Oh, that's what you said? Yes. All right. I might have mixed that up then.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

That's okay. That's why that's why I was like really confused. So King King Charles II. Shut up. King Charles II was the one that who passed. And he actually passed himself. He died during um Phipps' um excursion.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

So his brother, who is now King, James II, made him. He united him.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah. Wow. So Sir William Phipps. Sir William.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Yeah. So remember the promise that Phipps made to Mary that someday he would be the captain of a king ship and he would live in a fine brick house in Boston. Yeah. Phippon and built one.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Well, by himself.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

I was gonna buy my or build my brick house in Boston. The treasure of the Concepcion had done exactly what Phipps had hoped it would do. It had changed his social position almost overnight. He had money, he had the title now, powerful connections in England as well. He had proven that one spectacular success could propel a man far beyond the circumstances that he was born with.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

But it also created a problem that would follow Phipp through the rest of his life. Because once you've gone from obscure, unwealthy shipbuilder to Sir William Phipps, quietly retiring in your new brick house wasn't as appealing. No, I thought Phipp had gotten his shortcut to wealth, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Which we're we're all trying to do with the role lottery, right? Oh, yeah, part of all right.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

But now he wanted influence. So fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it. Look at it. Um New England was about to give him that opportunity.

Politics Shift Toward War And Power

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Because uh, while William Fitz had been hunting for Spanish treasure, the political world he had left behind was beginning to fall apart. The next time Phipps sailed north, he wouldn't be looking for silver, he would be commanding an invasion.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Wow. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

He becomes a militiaman. Militiaman? Mm-hmm. Shipbuilder, treasure hunter, militiaman, governor. As you'll come to find out.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Well, yeah, you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Uh-huh. For decades, the Massachusetts Bay Colony had operated under a charter from England that gave its government considerable independence. That arrangement had increasingly frustrated the English crown because Massachusetts wanted to do their own thing. Um, and in 1684, the colony's charter was revoked. Ah. Two years later, King James II folded Massachusetts and several neighboring colonies into a new political uh um arrangement called the Dominion of New England.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Okay, so that's where New England comes from?

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Really? Well, I mean, yes. More or less.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

I mean, all the British came over and that was New England.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

No, I get that, but like I didn't know if it actually was part of the naming of New England.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I'm not sure I'm not certain on that.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, because I just always assume, well, new.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

I'm just glad it's it's not called the Dominion. It's called New England currently.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

I kind of want it to be called Dominion, though. Dominion.

unknown 37:56

The Dominion.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

The Dominion of New England football club.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

It seems really intense, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

It seems rather uh aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yeah. So the Dominion was deeply unpopular with colonists, particularly because it weakened the local political institution institutions that they had been accustomed to controlling.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Its governor, Sir Edmund Andros, became the face of that resentment.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

In 1688, King James II was overthrown during the Glorious Revolution and replaced by William the Third and Mary II together. Okay. Mary II was King James II's daughter.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

And William the Third was Mary's husband.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Okay. I think I got it.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

So the king's daughter and daughter and son-in-law.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Yeah, right. Yes. I feel like that'd have been easier to say.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

I wanted to be specific. I'm just kidding. And then I had to dumb it down a little bit, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Because I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

When news of the revolution reached Boston in the spring of 1689, opponents of Androst seized that opportunity. An uprising broke out, and within only a day or two, Androst surrendered. He's like, All right, all right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Just joking, man. Just playing.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

So he surrendered, he was arrested, and the Dominion government collapsed. Like it was, yeah, it was quick. Massachusetts suddenly found itself trying to determine exactly what government and what relationship they had with England now. They're like, well, where do we stand here?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

So this all happened that much earlier than the revolution. Wow. I guess I didn't really realize that or know about it for that matter.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

But while all of that was happening with Massachusetts, England and France were also at war.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

So that European conflict spilled directly into North America, where English and French colonists were already competing for territory trade and alliances with other indigenous nations.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Well, that's part of the reason why France like funded us against the British, because they're like, no, fuck them guys. We'll help you.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yep. So in the English colonies, the conflict became known as King William's War. For communities along the northern frontier raids, the counter raids struck settlements, homes were destroyed, civilians were killed, they were taken captive. Massachusetts wanted to strike back against the French because they're not on the same side at this point. No. In 1690, colonial leaders decided to target French Acadia. This was a French colony northeast of New England in Port Royal, which is now Nova Scotia.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Oh, okay, sure. I've heard I've heard of it being called Port Royal in the past, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

So they needed someone to lead that expedition. And Sir William Phipps had money, ships, status, and apparently that was close enough. And Phipps was given command. Wow, that's wild. His target was Port Royal. In the spring of 1960, nope, 1690. In the spring of 1690, that was a big jump.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

You're listed. Oh lord.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Phipps sailed from Boston with a small fleet and several hundred men, and almost immediately things were going extremely well. We're like, we got this. In hindsight, not so much. Until they didn't? It was probably one of the worst things that could have happened to Mr. Mr. Phipps. Oh no. Sir Phipps. So Port Royal was poorly prepared to resist him. Its governor. And my apologies for my French pronunciation.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Very good.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Louis Alexandra de Frieshaw de Menville.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

That's a mouthful.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

That's very American. Balls. Had only a small number of soldiers available. Like under a hundred. Wow. And the settlement's defenses were inadequate against the force Phipps had brought with him. Sure. So Phipps demanded surrender and Menville agreed to negotiate. Exactly what the two sides agreed upon became a source of argument afterwards. There were no written terms.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

It was like a gentleman's type of handshake agreement. So Phipps later maintained that the French had violated their agreement by concealing property and removing goods. The French accused the New England New Englanders of violating the surrender terms. What is clear is that after Port Royal surrendered, Phipps's men looted the settlement. Oh. Property was taken, buildings were damaged, and the church was ransacked. Phipps had captured Port Royal, but the conquest was considerably messier than the clean militia victory that that might appear in biographies down the line.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Like 26 kids. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Still, when he returned to Boston, it was obvious he had won. He still won.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Hip hip hooray. Huzzah.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Um, Sir William Fitz had now succeeded at two things that seemed extraordinarily difficult. Right. He found the Concepcion after two wild like, please, please, can I have some money? I really want to go find this treasure. Please, please, please. Just and somehow he happened.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

I would love to be able to watch those conversations as they really happen because, like, what did he tell I know? Especially the second one.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

I know. It's like, I don't know, you failed the first one.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Yeah. What's your track record, man? You're like, you're 0 for one.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Give it give us your resume. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

It's like, um, no. Let me let me call some of your resources. But you make your references. But you make a good argument. Yes, let's do it. It let's do it. All right. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah. So he captured the concession, the conception, and he captured Port Royal. Yeah. Found Conception. Captured Port Royal. So Massacu Massachusetts decided to give him a l larger assignment.

Port Royal Win Then Quebec Disaster

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Quebec.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Oh. Is this like a whole battle of Battle of Quebec?

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I don't think it was named that, but it should have been. If Port Royal was a vulnerable French outpost, Quebec was a much, much bigger dog. Quebec was the center of French power in Canada. Positioned above the St. Lawrence River and protected by geography, fortifications, soldiers, and an experienced governor. Right. Taking it would require a lot more force. But Massachusetts decided to try anyway. Wow. The basic plan involved attacking New France from two directions. A land force led by Fitz F-I-T-Z, Fitz John Winthrop, would move north from the Albany area towards Montreal. Meanwhile, Phipps would command a fleet sailing up the St. Lawrence River and attack Quebec.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

If both operations succeeded, New France would face enormous pressure at two major points.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

It was called New France at that time. I've never heard that before.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

However, small problem, Massachusetts did not have the money to launch a massive invasion of Canada. No. Colonial leaders hoped the expedition could largely pay for itself once Quebec was captured. Really? Captured.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

So the they were hoping, like, hey, we can't pay you. Uh-huh. We can give you no provisions. Uh huh. Go do this. Take what you can. We'll pay you back. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Yeah. Borrow money, invade Quebec, win, use the stuff at from Quebec and pay you back.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

That's so wild.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

I'd be like, And also, we don't have a plan B.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

That'd be like, hey, you're we're gonna employ you, but you gotta make everything we're gonna sell. Once we finally sell it, then we can pay you for your work. Yes. It's like no.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Pay me up front, bitches. Yeah. That's wild that they would even. I mean, it's much grandiose.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I don't even have a car registry to give you as collateral.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I know, right? It's like, good lord. I'd be like, yeah, no, I don't feel comfortable about invading this place without being backed by some fucking money. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

But Massachusetts assembled a fleet of roughly roughly 30 ships carrying more than 2,000 men. It was one of the largest military expeditions the English colonies had ever attempted. Right. And of course, from the beginning, there were warning signs. Sure. The force was made up largely of colonial militia rather than experienced professional soldiers. Right. Supplies were limited, ammunition was inadequate. Yep. There were disagreements over command, and preparations took longer than expected, and that made them late.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

The fleet did not leave Boston until August of 1690. Phipps had to move a large fleet into the Gulf of St. Lawrence and then navigate hundreds of miles upriver towards Quebec without the detailed charts and maps and experienced pilots that would have made this journey easier. Progress was slow, every day mattered, and Canadian winter was coming.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, the wind good old winter is coming.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

So by the time Phipp's fleet, it's really hard to say, Phipps' fleet appeared off Quebec in October, the French knew that they were coming by this time. Yeah. Waiting for Phipps was Louis de Bod Comme de Frontenac. You're welcome. The governor. Yeah. The governor general of New France. Experienced guy, right? Frontenac, yes. He was in his late 60s. He was an experienced soldier and administrator, and he had recently returned to Canada for a second term as governor. Oh wow. He was also not particularly intimidated by Sir William Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Why would he be? Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Before attacking, Phipps decided to give the French an opportunity to surrender. Of course. He sent Major Thomas Savage ashore under a flag of truce carrying a written demand. Savage was ended up being blindfolded and led through Quebec. The French apparently made a show of moving him through crowds. I'm thinking like Game of Thrones with Cersei walking through the city naked and people are like shame. Yeah, exactly. Um, so they were moving him through the crowd and defensive position and defensive positions before bringing him before Frontenac and his officers. The message Savage Savage carried was really straightforward. Phipps demanded that Quebec surrender. Just go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Just hey.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

And of course, he wanted an answer quickly.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

According to the traditional account, Phipps even sent a watch along with a messenger to emphasize that Frontenac had a very limited time to respond. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Uh the governor was not impressed.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

No.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

His response became one of the most famous lines associated with the battle. Okay. He refused to provide a written answer and declared that Phipps would receive his response only, quote, from the mouths of my cannons and muskets, end quote. AKA over my dead body. Okay. That's 17th century for no.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah. Uh fuck off.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

From the mouths of my cannons and muskets.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Wow, that's pretty eloquent.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Savage return to the fleet. And Fitz was like, fuck, now we gotta actually do this. Shit. Shit.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

So wait, you're telling me it didn't work? Fuck. What do we do now?

SPEAKER_01 49:57

And this is where Phipps' winning successful streak kind of ends. Well, yeah. The English plan called for troops to land northeast of the city at at Beauport while the fleet bombarded Quebec from the river.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

The land force commanded largely by Major John Wally would then advance towards the city. The terrain around Beaufort, excuse me, Beauport was difficult. Streams, marshy ground, um, it really slowed down the troops. Yeah. French French forces and their indigenous allies harassed the advancing New Englanders. And coordination between the soldiers ashore and Phipps' ships was quite poor.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Phipps' ships.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Phipps' ships. I mean, Phipps' fleets and his ships, you know, yeah. So Phipps moved several of his larger vessels into position and opened fire on Quebec, and of course, the French fired back. Well, naturally. Unfortunately for Phipps, naval bombardment was much less effective against Quebec than he had hoped for. The city sat high above the river, giving French artillery a very strong defensive position. Yeah. And offensive position. Phipps' ships took damage while um accomplishing very little. Sure. At one point, the English flag on Phipps's ship was shot down and fell into the river. Whoops. French soldiers retrieved it and carried it away as a trophy.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Wow. So they were able to get that close to retrieve it. What the hell? That's crazy. Because I mean, it's right there. Oh hey, yoink.

unknown 51:39

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 51:40

That's crazy that they would be all the way up there just to steal the flag that.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

I know.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

So um the things on land weren't going much better. Um, Wally's troops struggled to make progress against the French defenses, and and the hoped-for coordination assault never really materialized. The weather deteriorated, men started becoming sick, ammunition was running low, and the other half of this grand strategy, the land attack towards Montreal, had already kind of fallen apart. Right. Winthrop's expedition had been plagued by shortages, illness, transportation problems, and disputes among the forces involved. It never seriously threatened Montreal. Phipps was on his own, and after several days it became obvious that Quebec wasn't going to fall. The trips at Beauport withdrew, the fleet pulled away, and William Phipps began the long journey back to Boston. Sure. And the voyage home was quite miserable. Storms scattered the fleet, ships were damaged or lost, disease spread among the men, and many died during the expedition or shortly after returning home. Wow, that's too bad. Instead of arriving home with French treasure to pay for the invasion, Massachusetts received thousands of exhausted soldiers and a very large bill.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

The colony had borrowed heavily to finance the expedition and had now had no captured Quebec to reimburse anyone. Massachusetts needed some way to pay its soldiers, so the government tried something unusual. They issued paper money. Oh. Though these bills of credits are generally considered the first government-issued paper currency used on a significant scale in the English colonies of North America. Interesting. And it happened largely because Phipps had failed to conquer Quebec.

Quebec Fails And Paper Money Appears

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Phipps had failed.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Phipps had failed. That poor dude. He is the butt of many uh um alliteration.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

I know. But in Phipps' defense, he they sent him to an unwinnable situation. Potentially, yes. Well, I mean, they couldn't fund it properly, so they couldn't supply it properly. You didn't have enough people to properly carry out the invasion or whatever you want to call it. No. So I mean he was pretty fucked from the get-go. Uh he didn't really have much of a chance. So the fact the fact, I mean, unfortunately, people would say Phipps failed, but fuck them.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Everything I say with an F, I just think of a PH right now.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Failed PH. Okay, so Massachusetts was still trying to resolve the enormous political question created by the loss of his old charter and the ending ending of the Dominion. And one of the most influential men working on the colony on the colony's behalf was the Puritan minister, Increase Mather. Oh, yeah. All right. His son Cotton wrote the biography on Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Oh, all right. That's why I didn't want to say it right away. Yeah, no, that's Cotton needs to get his fucking facts right. 26. Fucking idiot.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Okay. Also, can I just say I love the name Increase Mather? Like, it just flows. Increase Mather, Cotton Mather. I just I like how it flows.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Yeah, and you look at some of the fucking weird names today.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

I'll go back to Increase.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

You're gonna change your name to that?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

No.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Okay. Kate Increase. Kate Increase. That doesn't flow. Increase Stewart. Increase Mather's just No, it's just it just quirks. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

So Phipps became closely connected with Mather and the effort to secure a new government for Massachusetts.

From Mather Connections To Governor

SPEAKER_01 55:39

And when a new royal charter was finally issued in 1691, Massachusetts would no longer operate quite like it had before. Sure. The new province of Massachusetts Bay needed a governor.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Who better than Phipps?

SPEAKER_01 55:52

The government would not be chosen by colonists, though. Oh. He would be appointed by the crown.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

And in 1692, the job went to a man who had never held anything resembling that office before, Sir William Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

But he had favor of the crown because of his favor. Of his uh previous expedition and being knighted and such. So I mean, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Like, hey, we know you've never done this before, but and we know you just failed taking Quebec, but yeah, you know, you you got Moxie Kid. We gotta write that one down. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

I mean, times were different back then where they didn't care how much you failed or even succeeded. Obviously, if you succeeded, you got in front of more people's faces with your success, but you're like, oh well, you failed at that. Let's just try again. Try again. Yeah. It's kind of like in football where, like, hey, you are a crappy coach at this team, but yeah, we'll hire you. Yeah. It's like, what? Yeah. He failed there, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

But if we go to the brewers and we look at um Vaughn, what's his first name?

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Andrew.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Andrew Vaughn, who was from the White Sox and doing poorly.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

And then last year he came to the brewers and just hit it literally. Quote unquote out of the park. No pun intended.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

You know.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Pun unintentional.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Unintentional. But seriously, like same situation. Uh, you failed at this, but let's try you over here.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Well, you also you could look at that from like manager standpoint. Council left to go to the Cubs. And yeah, they're still a team that you have to worry about. It's because they have a huge fucking payroll. Yeah. What has he really done to elevate them over that? Where Pat Murphy is potentially gonna get his third manager the year uh award. I don't know if he will this year, but he's got two in a row.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah. So then there's talks of him having a third.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Well, I mean, shit, if the Brewers can win a hundred games, if they if he doesn't get it, that's fucking highway robbery. But whatever.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

And and what number are they at now for wins?

SPEAKER_00 58:11

96. That's so cool. I know.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

And there's what, nine games left?

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Nine games left as of today, including today's game, yes. Correct. So wild. Let's go, Brewer. Let's go, Brewers.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

So, Sir William Fitz, governor, you've got Moxie Kidd. Unfortunately for him, Massachusetts was already in another crisis.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

Several months earlier in the village of Salem, a group of girls had begun behaving strangely.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Oh deah.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Is this not a wild ride for Mr. Phibbs?

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Like in hindsight, he's doing all these things. Wild ride.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

I'm gonna go to Disney World and ride Mr. Phipps Wild ride.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

We're not even drinking, folks. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

This is fucking gold. We're not even drinking, folks. But doesn't that like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Mr. Phipps Wild Ride? It just fucking works. Mr. Phipp's wild ride.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Uh too many to pick from. Yeah, I mean, some some girls started acting crazy. Oh bitches be crazy.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Bitches be crazy. Okay, so by the time that uh William Fitz step stepped ashore here, um, because he probably probably went to England. Yeah, he he went to England and we'll make you governor, so he had to come back. Yeah. So by the time that he came back, um, the witchcraft crisis was already spreading.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

In full swing there.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Yeah. Um that sounded delightful. That felt good. My ankle popped. Yeah, I mine do that all the time. Yeah. Okay. The old Massachusetts Bay colony and Plymouth Colony were now joined within the new province of Massachusetts Bay, and Phipps had been appointed its first royal governor. Okay. Okay. This is another extraordinary jump for him. Sure. Increase Mather had spent years in England lobbying on Massachusetts behalf, and Phipps had become closely associated with Mather. Yeah. So Mather supported Phipps for the governorship, and the Crown approved that appointment. So he so Phipps had a little bit of a help. He had a wingman.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

He had a wingman.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

So now trouble had started months earlier in Salem Village in a small community northwest of Salem town. During the winter of 1691 and 1692, several young girls began experiencing strange episodes that included screaming, contortions, complaints of invisible attacks, and other unusual behavior. Right. Eventually, witchcraft was suggested as an explanation. And in February, a warrant, excuse me, arrest warrants were issued for three men Tichiba, Sarah Good, and Sarah Osborne. Osborne. And this is where I kind of go back to the beginning when I was like, oh shoot, I was gonna look up something. I was gonna look up our um Mary Osgood um episode who was accused of witchcraft. Yeah. Because I I couldn't remember how much overlap we might have in this story. So that was my apologies.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

But we're all good.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Yeah. So by the time Phipps became government governor, dozens of people had already been accused or imprisoned. And there was another problem because why not? Massachusetts new government had only just been established. The regular judicial system under the new charter wasn't fully functioning yet, and the growing number of witchcraft cases needed somewhere

Salem Trials And Spectral Evidence

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

to go. So on May 27th, Phipps created a special court to hear them. The court of Oyer and Terminor.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Yeah, I remember that. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Yeah. So Oyer and Terminor essentially meant a court authorized to quote, hear and determine serious uh criminal cases.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

So Phipps appointed several prominent Massachusetts men to serve on it, including Lieutenant Governor William Staughton as Chief Justice. And this decision is one of the most important parts of Phipps's entire career. Because once the court began operating, the Salem witch trial moved from accusations and preliminary examinations into executions. Yeah. So the court first convened in Salem in June. The first major case case was Bridget Bishop. Bishop had been accused of witchcraft years earlier and had survived those accusations, but now she was caught in this new wave of accusations. Witnesses claimed she had appeared to them in spectoral form. Others described strange incidents they associated with her, and the court found her guilty. I am specifically not going deep into this portion of Phipps' life because it witchcraft uh Salem has been done, and we've also covered it with Mary Osgood. Yeah, and that's not the main purpose of Phipps' uh story here. Of course not. So the court found her guilty on June 10th of 1692. Bridget Bishop was hanged and the trials continued. One major problem was the use of spec spector spectral, excuse me, spectral evidence.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Yes. This was testimony. We talked about that in Mary Arnold. It's just fucking just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Yeah, so this was testimony in which an accuser claimed the spirit, apparition or specter of another person had attacked or tormented them. The accused person didn't need to be physically present when the attack, uh the alleged attack occurred. Yes. So the accusation could essentially be, I saw your spirit hurting me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Yeah, it's like it's such weak fucking shit. But yet they're like, oh, wait, yeah, hang on.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

I believe you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, I mean, how could they be lying about this? Yeah. Because they're fu they fucking hate that person and want them dead? That's why. You fucking idiots.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

So, and then the court had to decide whether Satan could appear in the form of an innocent person without that person's consent and make them a spectral sp a spec, why do we keep messing that up?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

A spectral. Because words are tough.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Spectral?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Spectre.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Specter. Well, you said spectral before, so I wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

That theological question mattered enormously. If Satan could only take the form of someone who had made some kind of agreement with him, then seeing a person's specter could be evidence that the person wasn't wench. But if Satan could impersonate any sad people, spectral evidence became far less useful.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

All this is fucking nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Even some ministers who accepted the evidence of witchcraft were deeply uncomfortable with relying on this. Yes. Thankfully. Increase Mather and his son, Cotton Mather, both became involved in discussions over how those trials should proceed. Yeah. Cotton Mather. I like his name too. Cotton Mather advised caution about.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

I think you like his name because it reminds you of Scream.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Cotton Weary. Yeah. Yeah, I love Scream. I know you do. I really do. I really do. I need to watch those, all of them. All seven of them again.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

And Halloween's coming up. It's a good time for them, too. It's always a good time to watch the Scream franchise. Seven is the newest, newest one, right? You watched that and you said it was okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Yeah, it was okay, but I'm gonna love it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Well, of course. That's just like I'm still gonna watch The Rise of Skywalker, even though it sucks balls. It's Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Is that the Red Planet one?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

No, that's that's um The Last Jedi. Also terrible. See, I liked that one. You're not a true fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

Okay. Okay so but yeah. Yes, I'm gonna watch five, six, seven, even though one, two, three, and four are better.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

I'll start at one.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Naturally.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Just because he's yeah. I mean, this isn't Star Wars or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

I mean, I'm not gonna go backwards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Well, you typically do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Cotton Mather advised caution about spectral evidence. Yeah. Although his overall role in the trials was complicated, and he continued to defend aspects of the persecutions.

unknown 1:06:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Right. So he was like, This ain't cool, but I like uh agree with this part.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

But yeah, I'm good with it. Yeah. I don't like it, but I'm good with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

So and then there was Governor Phipps.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

While his special court was doing all of this, where's he? For part of the summer, he was largely focused somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

On his brick house.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

The war with New France had not stopped simply because Phipps had become governor and he came home. Well, of course not. Frontier security remained a major concern, and Phipps traveled into Maine to deal with military defenses and relations in the region. That meant that William Staughton and the court of Oyer and Terminer were largely directing the witchcraft prosecutions. Right. So when Phipp later described the situations to officials in England, he portrayed himself as someone who had returned to find that the proceedings had gone much further than he expected.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Or intended, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

So that version deserves a little bit of caution going forward. Phipps had created the court, he had appointed the judges, he was governor while the executions occurred. But it is also true that he wasn't personally sitting on the bench or even in the area examining every accused witch.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

Yeah, like both pretty true. What's going on here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

The machinery he created was operating largely under Staughton's direction, and it was accelerating. On July 19th, five women were hanged just on one day. Yeah. Rebecca Nurse, Sarah Good, Samantha Martin, Elizabeth Howe, and Sarah Wildes. Men were also accused. Women obviously were accused. Poor people were accused. People from prominent families were accused. Even people who who had initially supported the prosecutions also became targets.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Yeah, it's it was it was a fucking ridiculous, ridiculous thing that happened. Because you could literally accuse anybody. So it's just it was so dumb. I mean, I was very fascinated with it. Still kind of am.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

It's it's fascinating because it's so illogical.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

100% illogical. Like I think I was more fascinated in my youth with the whole uh like witchcraft side of it, if you will. And now being, I guess, older, even though I I love, you know, fiction like about witches and pouring water, not peeing. God, I would hope you're not peeing. Um, you know, you st my older brain sees it like just how fucking dumb they were for being so illogical about their outcomes of yeah, you know, well, if she lives, she's a witch. If she dies, she's pure. It's like you just fucking killed an innocent person then by your logic. Yeah. Like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

You're dead no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Yeah, you you were fucked. Yeah. So yeah, it's just, anyways, it's just so dumb.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Then September arrived, and the trials reached their deadliest point at this time. On September 19th, um, Giles Corey was pressed to death after refusing to enter a plea.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Because he would not plead guilty or innocent, the court could not proceed with a normal trial. Authorities placed increasing weight upon him in an attempt to force a plea. And after two days, Corey died.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

Damn, that is some fucking torture.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Three days later, on September 22nd, eight more people were hanged. Good lord. By then, 19 people had been executed by hanging. Giles Corey had been pressed to death, several others had died in jail, and well over a hundred people had been accused. And the ex accusations were also continuing to spread beyond this point. And this is where Phipps' position began to change. Exactly what finally pushed him to intervene is unknown, but one factor was growing opposition from ministers and other influential members of the colony, particularly with their concern over spectral evidence. Right. Another was the increasingly uncontrolled nature of the accusations. It was spreading like wildfire. And according to later accounts, the accusations eventually came uncomfortably close to Phipps himself. Oh, sure. His wife Mary was accused of witchcraft.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Oh, good lord. But why? Like what do you did you come across anything as to why?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

The story had been repeated for many generations, and there's really not surviving evidence of a formal accusation against Lady Mary Phipps. So we don't really know. They could have been Cotton Mather and his uh um liberties. Yeah, we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

That is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

Yeah, but there's no surviving F F uh records of her formal conviction. So so it's possible that her name was mentioned or rumored without an official case ever developing. But either way, by October, the governor could no longer treat the trials as something happening at a safe

Phipps Dissolves The Witch Court

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

distance. Uh and Pitts began shutting them down on October 12th. He wrote to the Privy Council in England about the crisis. In his account, Phipps emphasized that when he had arrived from England as a new governor, he found the colony already deeply caught up in witchcraft accusations. He explained that he had established the special court because so many accused people were imprisoned and just awaiting trial.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

But he also expressed serious concerns about how the proceedings had developed. Then later in October, Phipps dissolved the court, the court of Oyer and Terminator. That decision effectively ended the phase of the Salem trials, responsible for the executions of the that summer and early fall. But Phipps did not declare every prisoner innocent and send everyone home. A new court, the Superior Court of Judicature. Judicature.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

Judicature?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

I believe began hearing the remaining cases in January of 1693. Okay. This court operated differently. Most importantly, spectral evidence was no longer accepted in the same way. Thank God. Without it, convictions were much harder to obtain. I would imagine so, yeah. So the new court acquitted many defendants. Some people were still convinced, but Phipps issued repriefs preventing their executions. Sure. Then in May of 1693, he pardoned the remaining prisoners. The Salem witch trials were officially over.

Smuggling War Spending And Growing Enemies

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

William Phipps' role in all of this is uncomfortable because it doesn't fit neatly into either the man who caused Salem or the man who stopped Salem.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Right. Both things kind of happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:25

He created the court of Oyer and Terminer. He selected William Staughton to lead it. He allowed the court to operate while the executions mounted. And then when oppositions grew and the dangers of the proceedings became a little bit more obvious, he dissolved the court and ultimately prevented further executions.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

He may have created the the court and appointed the guy, but I feel like the guy he appointed kind of ran with a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

Yeah, he's like he was given an inch and took a mile.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

Yeah, pretty much, because he's like, Well shit, I got I can do what I want.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah. So Phipps later worked really hard to distance himself from what had happened. In letters to England, he emphasized that the crisis had begun before his arrival and su suggested that when while he occup while he was occupied with military matters, Staughton and the other judges had allowed the proceedings to move in directions he had not anticipated. Right. So by the spring of 1693, the crisis that had dominated the beginning of his governorship was fading. Fitz could finally um concentrate on actually governing Massachusetts instead of this little Salem town going apeship.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

And this should have made his life easier, but it did not.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Of course not.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Gover me governing meant dealing with merchants and military officers and political opponents and neighboring colonies and of royal officials and people who could push back.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

And while William Fitz was about to discover that you could not solve every political disagreement the same way you solved a mutiny aboard a treasure ship.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Nope, not even close. Although he tried.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

By 1693, the Salem Witch trials were done. Phipps' problems were not. In some ways, the qualities that he that had carried him through most of his life were poorly suited to the job he had now. Of course. Phipps was persistent, he was ambitious, he was willing to take risks. And when he decided something needed to happen, his instinct was usually to make it happen and deal with the consequences afterwards. Right. Right? Borrow now, pay later.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

It was less effective when the complications were other government officials.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

One of Phipps's biggest responsibilities as governor was still the war with New France. The failure at Quebec had not ended the conflict, and the northern frontier remained dangerous. French forces and their indigenous allies continued attacking English settlements where the English launched attacks of their own.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

Phipps devoted considerable attention to strengthening Massachusetts defenses, particularly in Maine, the region where he had grown up and also, you know, the border.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

He ordered the construction and improvement of fortifications and continued trying to organize colonial military efforts. Okay. Of course, military efforts demanded more money. Massachusetts was already struggling financially after the Quebec expedition, and Phipps repeatedly found himself caught between what he believed was necessary for defense and what the colonial government was willing to pay for. Right. At the same time, another problem. Trade. Boston was a major Atlantic port, and England expected its colonial trade laws to be enforced. Those laws restricted where certain goods could be shipped and required colonial commerce to operate within the English imperial system. Merchants had plenty of financial incentive to find ways around them. Smuggling was hardly unusual.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Well, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

And the people were for respon for people responsible for enforcing customs regulations could become extremely unpopular extremely quickly. One of those officials was Edward Randolph. Randolph had already spent years irritating Massachusetts colonists as an aggressive representation of royal authority. He had played a major role in reporting violation of English trade laws and had been deeply involved in the political disputes surrounding the colony's old charter.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Now he was complaining about Phipps. Randolph accused the governor and other Massachusetts officials of failing to enforce the navigation acts properly and allowing illegal trade to continue. And other accusations followed. Phipps' opponents claimed that he interfered interfered with customs officers, protected merchants, abused his authority, and used his positions in ways that benefited him and his associates. Phipps, of course, denied many of these charges. Some of the disputes reflected a much larger problem built into his job. As royal governor, Phipps represented the crown, but he was also a Massachusetts man with deep connections to the colony. England expected him to enforce imperial policy, and Massachusetts expected him to defend Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

Those two things did not always fit very nicely together.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

No, it doesn't really. It's not an easy thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

And William Phipps was not particularly gifted at handling disagreement delicately.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

Well, again, he's not really suited for this job. He was just given it.

The Governor Swings A Cane

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

So which brings us to Captain Richard Short. Short was an officer in the Royal Navy who commanded the non-such, a vessel stationed in New England. Okay. He and Phipps did not get along. Oh. The conflict involved questions of military authority, command, and the governor's power over naval forces operating in the colony.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

Gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:07

Eventually their disagreement became intensely personal. Oh no. In the summer of 19 1693, Phipps and Short got into an argument in Boston. Accounts differ exactly on what happened, how the confrontation unfolded, but it was still a little bit straightforward. The governor of Massachusetts physically attacked a Royal Navy captain.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:30

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

Fitz reportedly struck Short with his cane.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

Shit, I missed.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:38

Depending on the account, there may have been grabbing, punching, whatever. We don't really know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Maybe a little slapping, some hair pulling, I mean, whatever. What the fuck? You don't. Governor attacks. Wow. A Royal Navy officer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:53

Whatever the exact method of um force. Yeah. This was not a quiet disagreement. Sir William Fitz, Royal Governor of Massachusetts, had gotten into a physical altercation with an officer serving the same king who had appointed him.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

And Short complained.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Of course he did. That's what Short did.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:13

So Phipps defended himself by arguing that Short had been insubordinate and disrespectful of his authority, but complaints against the governor were accumulating. So this was just kind of one more thing. Yeah. There were disputes involved involving custom officials, accusations concerning trade, arguments over military authority. There were political enemies in Massachusetts. There were complaints reaching officials in England, and Phipps continued creating new ones. At another point, he became embroiled in a dispute with customs collector Jaleel Brenton. Brenton was attempting to enforce the Navigation Acts, and Phipps believed he was interfering with Massachusetts commerce and exceeding his authority. Their relationship deteriorated badly enough that Brenton also carried complaints about Phipps back to England. So this mattered because colonial governors did not operate independently. He uh served the Crown.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

And enough enough credible complaints reached London, the Crown could summon him home and demand answers.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:18

Yeah, be like, hey, you you need to get on a boat. Get your ass over here.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:22

In 1694, that's exactly what happened. Phillips was ordered to go to England.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

I'm not sup- I'm surprised it took that fucking long from what you're saying, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

He was not formally stripped of the governorship before leaving Massachusetts. Instead, he was expected to answer the accusations that had been made against him in November of 1694, because it takes a while to get over there.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:44

A few months, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

William Pitts um crossed the Atlantic and things got worse pretty much almost immediately. Oh boy. After reaching England, Phipps faced complaints, legal actions connected to his conduct in Massachusetts as well. One particularly serious accusation came from a merchant named John Usher, who claimed Phipps owed him a substantial amount of money. Phipps was briefly arrested in connection with a debt dispute before being released on bail. Meanwhile, the larger investigation into his governorship remained unresolved. Phipps intended to defend himself. He still had supporters, and there was no guarantee that the complaints against him would have ended his career. Right. He might have returned to Massachusetts. He might have been removed. He might have received another appointment. We don't know. Because William Pitts never got the chance to find

London Illness Death And Mary’s Legacy

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

out.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:35

Did he die?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:36

During the winter of 1694 through 1695, while still in London, Phipps became seriously ill. Oh no. He developed a fever and can his condition worst worsened rapidly.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:50

February 18th of 1690 95, Sir Philliam uh Phipps. Sir William Phipp Sir William Phipps died. Sir William.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

He died. So was Guess how old he was?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

54.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

44.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:03

Oh, I was 10 years off. Damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

44. The investigation into his conduct as governor.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:09

He outlived Sir William.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

The investigation into his conduct as governor was never fully resolved. And his career was a very good idea. I know. He's dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

So was Mary with them at this time?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

Um no. I will mention her briefly here in a moment. He was buried in London, and back in Massachusetts, the brick house he had once dreamed of building remained behind. Mary Phipps, meanwhile, continued on without him. She took control of the estate William had left her and proved herself to be an extremely capable businesswoman. Yeah. Investing in chips, lending money, and suing people who didn't pay her back.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:45

Well, naturally.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:46

She eventually remarried. Her third husband was Peter Sargent, one of the magistrates William had appointed to the court of Oyer and Terminer during the Salem witch trials. And that is the story of Sir William Feltz and his up and down roller coaster of a life.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:04

Sir William Phipps.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:06

What did I say? Jesus! Sir William Pitts That dude. Phipps and ships. Fipps failed ships.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

If it flips, it ships. I'm a big fan of uh Mr. Phipps Wild Drive.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:28

I mean isn't that a crazy life?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

Yeah, and and in such a short amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:35

I know. Bing bam boom.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:37

He died when he was 44, and I haven't done that much.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

And and really his life started at 18 when he started being apprenticed for a shipbuilder.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

Right. I mean, so you think about it, you take 18 years off of that. That's 26 years of craziness.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:54

Treasure hunter, governor, military, militiaman.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

Yeah, leader, if you will, and that's just organi uh organizer of the trials. And all he wanted was a brick. Well,

Outro Where To Reach The Hosts

SPEAKER_00 1:25:12

I suppose. Alright, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:16

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:27

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at historybuffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:41

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:46

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.