Miners, not Minors: The Battle of Matewan

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Oh hey there.

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Oh hey there.

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Welcome back.

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Yes.

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We're the history buffoons.

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I'm Kate.

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And I'm Bradley.

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And these are this is Theo.

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Hi Theo.

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Isn't he so adorable?

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I would get Enid before she saunters off. Oh gee.

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Malfunction.

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Would you say that was a catastrophe?

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Oh that was a catastrophe. Come here, Enid. Come here.

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She's like, no. This is Enid.

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We have Theo and Enid as part of our part of my new family.

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So we we've been off the last uh couple weeks, as hopefully someone noticed.

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But um We didn't announce it at all.

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Well, scheduling conflicts, integrating new cats into the household. Which is still an active job. You said your cats are getting better though, right?

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Two out of the four.

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Yeah.

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So Bonnie and Penny are not having a good time.

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I don't think this is gonna last long for the kittens to be anywhere.

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No, I just wanted to show them off because they're so cute.

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Hey Theo. So if you don't have a cat and never had one, they like cords. Just saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Hi, sweetheart.

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But no, they're super cute. Kate wanted to show off her new kittens. He's like, I don't know about this.

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Go play. Go play.

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I should have kept that ball in through it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, go, go, go. Go. Keep going. Scoot scoot.

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Okay. So yeah, we've been on indulging us.

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Yeah. We've been off for a couple weeks. We had some scheduling, just things going on that we couldn't do it, so we thought we'd take a little mini break and come back for which will make our this episode our two-year anniversary. Oh shit. Yeah. It's gonna come out like uh what two, three days before our actual first episode release.

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Two days before our anniversary is September 3rd.

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Yeah. So sweet. Isn't that wild?

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That is wild.

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I know. So if you like hearing us be buffoons, make sure you uh like and how about Oliver gets out too. That'd be great.

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Oh hey Oliver.

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Because he's even worse.

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Or even worse. Go, go.

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Yeah, and you can leave us messages on our website, history buffoonspodcast.com. You can email us at history buffoons podcast at gmail.com. Yep. Um you can find us on um YouTube exactly. So um if you have a request, we honor those as well.

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Yeah, we actually really like getting requests because it helps me. Well, because since you're the the main person who looks for the topic, because obviously more or less come in and to teach me something.

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Yeah.

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Um, but you also learn in the process of doing it, of course. But um, sometimes it's just like, I don't know what I want to do.

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Yeah, sometimes it takes me a solid couple of days to pick something that I am enjoying enough to want to learn more about it.

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Well, yeah, that's a big thing is we're not just gonna pick a topic if we're not interested in it because we want to be interested in it and we want to have fun doing it. Yeah. Not being like, well, we're doing this because we have to, kind of topic.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

So on that note, what are you drinking today?

SPEAKER_03 3:56

I was gonna ask you what you're teaching me today first.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Oh, sorry. We're gonna talk about um a uh police chief in Appalachia.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Um in I don't know, somewhere in the 1900s. I don't remember the exact year. Well, there's a hundred of them, so yeah, somewhere in there. Um but he was involved in some coal mining strike activity, so not in Centralia, was he? He was not in Centralia.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

He didn't start the fire?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

No, I am throwing back to that episode.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

No kidding. So I'm currently finishing my podcast setup beer, which is a chaos pattern, which I've had on that episode before. Um, I got a variety pack of three sheeps. What I haven't had on the podcast before, though, is their water slides IPA. I have had it, it's good. And what was the other one called again? Um Golden Coast, West Coast style IPA, fresh coast variant. I like it too.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Thank you. Three sheep from Sheboygan.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Yeah, thank you.

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Um, I am drinking a dessert cider. Um, this one is cranberry cobbler from Downeast Cider.

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Yes.

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And this was um fermented and canned in Boston.

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Boston.

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And I have had this. Um and instead of trying to find a whole new beer to have on here, I knew I haven't had this one on here.

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So there you go.

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Um Cheers. This one, so it's cranberry cobbler, but in my opinion, it tastes just a touch more cherry. Yeah, but I don't mind that either.

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Cheers.

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It gets me like right here in the in the sow patch.

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It gets you in the jellies? Yeah. That's from Pokemon movie. You feel it in the jellies.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

So in the earliest 20th century.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Did you say earliest?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Earliest 20th 20 century.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

So boy, I have missed this. It's been a couple weeks ago. Taking a break is like I don't get to laugh as much because I get to hear you talk like that earlier.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

In the early 20th century, if a man went looking for work in the mountains of southern w West Virginia, yeah, there was a pretty good chance that he was gonna find coal. Sure. Plenty of it in that area.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Yeah, very coal-rich region.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

By the early 1900s, coal had like basically transformed West Virginia. Railroads had pushed deeper into the mountains, connecting previously isolated communities to industrial cities hundreds of miles away.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

While investors bought mineral rights and opened mines throughout the southern part of the state.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Coal fueled factories, heated buildings, power uh powered um um railroads. There it is, and helped feed an American economy that was expanding at like a reasonable, like really incredible rate.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

I mean, obviously, trains have been around for a little bit uh by this time, but I mean that's what they primarily was their fuel source, wasn't it? For like quite a while before like Kazun Tite, before obviously electric trains and all that. I mean there were coal powered trains. So that alone, especially in the early ninth earliest 19th century, um you definitely needed a lot to fuel those trains to get across the country. Yeah. So makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

So for the companies that owned the mines, there was a lot of money to be made. Sure. For the men actually going underground to get the coal, the arrangement was a lot less glamorous. Coal mining was brutally dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Roof collapses could bury workers without warning, explosions and fires could rip through mines, and miners spend their careers breathing coal dust in places where safety regulations were weak and enforcement was probably even weaker.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Have you ever seen the movie Zoolander? It's with Ben Stiller, uh, Will Farrell's in it.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah, I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

A bunch of people. So he's a male model. And uh it's a stupid, funny movie, but um I I like it. So the rest of he wanted to go and be a male model. The rest of his family worked in mines, and so he thought he had to give up male modeling, and so he wanted to go back to join the family business more or less. And he was literally working in the mine for like uh I think less than a day, even and he goes, I think I got the black lung pop. So my question random. My question is, did a lot of people die from black lung? Is that a real thing? Did you come across any of that? I didn't come across that.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I wasn't sure if you would, but yeah, not in this story, but fair enough. So, according to the National Park Service, West Virginia's mine safety laws during this period were one of the weakest of the country.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

I was gonna say they probably are pretty lax on strict rules and regulations.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

So and they routinely dealt with long hours and low pay.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But the danger underground was only part of this problem. In much of southern West West Virginia, the company that employed a miner might also own the community where he lived. Oh, really? These were company towns, they were built around mines in places that had often been relatively isolated before a coal develop development arrived.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

So if a company owned a mine in a remote uh mountain valley, hundreds of workers needed someplace to live, sure, somewhere to buy food, somewhere to access their basic needs. So the coal companies built those things.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Well, that's basically like in Colorado where they're mining for gold and other precious ore or whatever they were doing. Um like a lot of the little towns that are still there today are only there because they were mining towns.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

So I mean, same, same thing. Mining for coal, mining for gold, whatever. They needed they needed a place to live and not far away so they could get them back to work right away. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

So these uh coal companies they built houses, they opened stores, constructed schools and churches, and they sometimes would provide doctors.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

And bars, naturally, caverns.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

And because they owned so much of the community surrounding the mine, the line between a mine's employer and or excuse me, a man's employer and his landlord became almost non-existent. So lose the job, there was a very real possibility that the family would lose its home along with it. So some companies also paid at least part of the worker's compensation in script, which is a form of private currency that could be spent at company-owned stores.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Well, yeah, because literally what they're doing is just putting the money back into themselves of the owners because hey, um, here's you can use this, but you can only use it at this local store to get your your goods. Sounds like the menards 11% off rebate. Don't get me start on menards. Where's Nathan? We need to have a rant about fucking menards. Fucking stupid ass thing. Save big money at Menards. Go fuck yourself. 11%. Oh, hey, by the way, you don't actually get it back. You have to spend it here. Yep. Yep. So you don't get 11% back. You get store fucking credit. Yep. And what I say to that is fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So this system helped make miners economically dependent on the companies that employed them. So the company could provide your paycheck, rent you your house, and sell you your groceries, and have tremendous influence over the community in which you lived. It was a remarkably efficient system if you happened to own the coal companies.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

If you were the owner, it's basically like an open prison in a way. You know what I mean? That sounds horrible. That's why I'm saying it because you had to work here. Inmates have to work there. You have to get the food from me. I provide it. You have to get it. Same with the prison. And so and you're here's your little cell, here's your little house.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

It's just an you're not behind bars, you're not walled in.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

That's really so creepy to feel to think about.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Am I wrong though?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

No, I mean there's a little bit obviously a little bit more freedom, but no, you're really not wrong.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

100% there's more freedom, but like back in early 1900s, it's not like you're going to Disneyland, right? You you're probably not even leaving the region. You're staying there.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

So it's not like you're going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

So it's just like it's a prison without being a prison. You have the opportunity to walk out if you want, but then you're fucking unemployed too.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So if you were the miner, it could feel like your boss now became your landlord, your grocer, and your local government all at once. Yeah. And when miners began talking about organizing unions, that level of control became extremely important. Oh, no doubt. The United Mine Workers of America had been attempting to organize West Virginia miners for years.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

And other parts of the country, uh, excuse me, in other parts of the country's coal fields, organized miners had managed to negotiate better wages, shorter working hours, and improvements in working conditions.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Do you have did you come across at all like what an average workday like length was for these people or no?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Um, not in this story. I wonder maybe when we did Centralia, if it was like 12 plus hours. Could you imagine being down in a mine for like didn't they get up before dawn and leave before, you know, after dark? Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Knowing especially that time frame. Yeah. Jesus. That would could you imagine spending that much time in a dark hole underground? Yeah. Where you could literally die at any point because of some stupid fucking mishap or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

No thanks.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

So, but Southern West Virginia remained particularly um hesitant to unionization. Cole operators had no intention of simply watching workers organize. Some required employees to sign agreements promising that they would not join a union. Union organizers could be banned from company property.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Well, yeah, I mean, it's personal property at that point.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah. Workers suspected of organizing could be fired. And because the company owned the worker's house, firing could follow eviction.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Correct. I mean, like, hey, you don't work for me, get the fuck out. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

So we don't want you to join the union meant losing your income, losing your house.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Losing everything, really.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Coal operators r relied on private guards and detective agencies to protect company property and suppress organization efforts.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Were the Pinkertons still around at this point?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Is that more of an 1800s thing?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

You know what the Pinkertons were, right? Vaguely. They're basically like a private Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, in this story, we have the company Baldwin Feltz.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Baldwin Feltz.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

That is their private guard.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

So F-E-L-T-S.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So the Baldwin Feltz Detective Agency had been founded by William Baldwin and Thomas Feltz and developed into one of the most power powerful private detective organizations operating in the region.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Are they still operating today?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Oh, I didn't look into that.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Wasn't it a part of your research?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

No.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Calling them detectives, however, was slightly misleading. Um coal companies hired Baldwin Feltz agents as armed guards, strike bearers, and enforcers.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

So they were like a private police force. Yeah. More or less.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

They protected company property, confronted union organizers, and helped remove striking minors and their families from company housing.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

You know.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

And of course, they've already developed a frightening reputation. Baldwin Feltz agents had played a major role in a violent West Virginia labor dispute. Oh dear. Um, from Paint Creek and Cabin Creek, which was a strike from 1912 to 1913.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

During that conflict, coal operators brought in hundreds of guards and strike breakers while striking miners and their families lived in tent colonies after being evicted from company housing. Oh boy. This dispute became violent enough that miners and guards exchanged gunfire, martial law was imposed, and armor armored vehicles were used against the strikers. Jesus Christ. One particular um contraption that they used became known as the Bull Moose Special. Bull Moose Special. It was it was an armored train.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

In February of 1913, armed mine guards boarded the train and fired into the Holy Grove tent colony where striking miners and their families were living. The West Virginia coalfields were becoming increasingly militarized. The companies had guards, the miners had guns, the state had militia, and of course, neither side trusted each other. And eventually the center of the conflict moved south towards Mingo County.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

So they just would get on a train and just shoot at people? Yeah. That's fucked up. Yeah. Wow. The balls on those people. I mean, seriously, I know you're pissed that your workers are striking because you're making less money. You don't just go and shoot people, you piece of shit.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Good lord.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

So along the Tug Fork River, which separates West Virginia from Kentucky, mining communities sprouted up along the narrow valley surrounded by steep Appalachian Mountains. One of those communities was different. Mattawan. Literally, Mattawan sits on this little river.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

And then just one little bridge over in Urine, Kentucky. Gotcha. Okay. So Mattawan was small, still a small.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

But unlike many of the settlements surrounding it, Mattawan was an incorporated, independent town rather than a company-owned coal camp.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

So that distinction would become important soon.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

I imagine, yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I need a tissue.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Zoom type.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

And we're back. Hello.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Are you all cleaned up up there? Yes. Sweet.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

So a coal company could exercise tremendous control over its own property and company towns, but Mattawan had its own elected government and its own local law enforcement.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

So did it have like a mayor?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yes. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

So coal comp companies operated all around it, but they didn't own Mattawan.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Which is sounding like quite wild for the times because every other one more or less was uh a mining camp. Yes. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

In 1919, the town needed a new police chief, and his name was William Sidney Hatfield. Everyone called him Sid.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

And this is the one we're talking about. Yes. William Sidney Hatfield. Call him Sid. Yes. I just my kids just watched um Ice Age. Sid. That's all I can think about now. Your kid lost. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

So Sid had been born just across the Tug Fork on the Kentucky side of the river.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Oh, Kentucky man.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

He grew up in the region and eventually went into the mines himself. So physically, Sid was not an imposing looking character. He was relatively thin with prominent ears and a broad smile that showed several gold tapped teeth. Oh. So the one of his nicknames was Smile and Sid. But smile could should not be confused with gentleness because he was not a gentle folk. Accounts of Hatfield consistently describe him as a rough man with a reputation for drinking, gambling, and fighting. He carried guns and he wasn't shy about using that reputation that came with him.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Sounds exactly like the person you want as your police chief. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

So by the time he became police chief, he was only in his twenties.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Oh wow, really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah. And despite the rough reputation, his position on one issue was becoming very clear. Sid supported the minors.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

So it's so hard to like know that we're talking about people who mine and not young people.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Minors.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Minors.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Because I'm like, I really I really hope he doesn't support the minors, if you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

That reminds me of a line from Galaxy Quest that Alan Rickman says, Minas, not minas.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

I fucking love that movie. Alan Rickman and that movie is just fucking great. That movie in general is just fucking great.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Miners, not miners.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Uh so by grab grab grabs. Grab Sars Hammer. I will avenge thee.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So there was another man in this town who also supported the miners, and his name was um mayor of Madawan, uh Cabel Testerman or Cabel Testerman. K-A-B-E-L. C-A-B-E-L. B-E-L-L.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Cable.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, I guess I don't know exactly how you pronounce it.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Mayor Testerman.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

There's a Marvel character called Cable. Yes, there is. He was in the second Deadpool movie. Played by Josh Rowland. Thanos, yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Who was also Thanos?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

So throughout much of southern West Virginia, coal companies could rely on local officials, company guards, and private detectives to oppose union organizers. Right. But Matowan miners suddenly had something that they needed badly. Local authorities who weren't automatically siding with the coal operators.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Well, you need well, lack of a better way to say it, people for the people.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah. I mean people of the people.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

I would say it's very not the same, obviously. Very similar things going on today with everyone who's like, ah, fuck capitalism and so on and so forth. Okay, I get it to a degree, but we don't need to be communists either, like everyone wants to all of a sudden be. But like you need people to support the people and not have corporations like a lot to to this day just fucking run everything. Because we're the ones who fucking buy your shit. Yeah. You know, or work for you or name your thing here. But yeah, you need people to support other people.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Not tear them down. But we just do that all the time now.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

You know, the world's just keep listening to our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

No. We talk about sad old stories, not sad now stories.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

So in 1920, the United Mine Workers decided the time had come to make another major push in Mingo County. Mingo County. During World War I, demand for coal had soared and miners had become increasingly aware of the importance of their labor. After the war, labor unrest spread throughout the United States. They wanted better pay, safer conditions, and the ability to organize. And they wanted an end to the private mine guard system that had become one of the most hated features of life in the coal fields. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Well, and it just sucks because in this time, jobs weren't like so abundant. So it's like, well, this is what I have to do, and this is the system I'm stuck in because I have to do this because there's no other jobs around here. Yeah. So you're really fucking damned no matter what you do. Yeah. Because you need to work, you need to provide for your family, and so on and so forth. And fuck, this is all I can get. Right. And it sucks. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

So the United Mine Workers began aggressively organizing throughout the Tug Fort region, holding meetings, sending organizers into mining communities, and encouraging workers to join the union.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I don't know why, but a lot of words you're saying are making me think of lines in movies right now.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Oh, really? What was that one?

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Uh the first one was we said the importance, and I I just watched Spider-Man what two? The importance of being earnest. She was in that play or whatever. Yep. And then you just said aggressive. And then my mind went to Star Wars, aggressive negotiations.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

But there's a movie called The Importance of Being Earnest, and Call of Firth is in it.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Well, it's a it's a book.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Well, it's also a movie with Colin Frith.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Based off of book. I love Colin Firth. The Cole Operators. Sorry. I just wanted to put that out there. So if I have if I shout out any other random movie lines, that is why.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

So the coal operators responded by firing miners who signed union cards and evicted their families from company-owned housing.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

The union established tent colonies for those who had nowhere else to go. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Joining you lost your house, here's a tent. Carry on.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Well, that's from the union. I got it. Like, yeah, you lost your house. This is what we have to offer you.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Well, I mean, it's better than not having a roof. Yeah. It's a flimsy roof, but it's better than no roof. So I I get it. It's just it's just, man, that sucks because you went against the coal company and now you're fucked. Yeah. Well, here's a tent.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Keep the rain off you.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

So joining the union could mean losing a job and a home at the same time, leaving miners, their wives, and their children standing beside their belongings with nowhere to live except for this union tent. Yep. In the spring of 1920, tensions around Mattawan became particularly severe.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

See, and every time we say Madawan, I just think of Padawan.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

So the Stone Mountain Coal Company was among the operators dealing with union activity near the town. Okay. When miners refused to abandon the union, the company began removing them from company housing. And to handle those evictions, the company turned to Baldwin Feltz.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

That brought two very different kinds of authority into direct conflict. The coal companies had property rights and hired detectives. Mattawan had a police chief.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Sure did.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And Sid Hatfield had no intention of allowing allowing Baldwin Feltz agents to walk into his jurisdiction and behave as though they were the law.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Yeah, that they own the city, if you will. So you said he was he became police chief in his 20s. There's a big difference between 20 and 29. Was it later 20s? No, I think it was early 20s. Was it really? I think so. But maybe mid-20s. Okay, because that's even mid-20s, that's man. I could not picture myself being a and and I know it's a hundred and plus years ago, but I could not. I have something in my eye. I apologize.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Um, I could not imagine myself in my mid-20s, but I was also married to the devil, so maybe that's why it clouds everything. My 20s sucked.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

So Baldwin Felt's agents believed that they were legally carrying out evictions on behalf of the coal company. Hatfield quest questioned whether they had legal authority and proper warrants to do what they were doing. So the argument over unionization was becoming an argument over law enforcement. Oh boy. Neither side was known for resolving disagreements gently.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Well, from what you said about Sid, doesn't sound like he's like a little rough around the edges. Yeah, he's like, I'm gonna go have a pint tonight. Where's my shotgun? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

So by May, um, Mattawan was packed with tension. Armed miners were nearby, Baldwin Felt's agents were operating in the area, and union organizers were encouraging workers to hold their ground. Wow. And of course, coal companies were determined to break that organizing campaign. Sure. And the police chief standing between them was a 20-something former coal miner who carried guns and openly sympathized with the union.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Then came May 19th of 1920. That morning, that morning, a group of Baldwin Feltz agents boarded a train bound for Mattawan. There were 13 in all. Among the men leading the group were Albert and Lee Feltz, brothers of Thomas Feltz, who was one of the men. He ran the agency, yes. Okay. The agents weren't being sent there to negotiate with the miners. They were coming to carry out the evictions. And so they arrived, arrived armed. So they pulled families.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

How can they evict people in Matalon when they don't own the town?

SPEAKER_00 30:19

They don't.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

They pulled families out of their homes and somebody went looking for Sid. They're like, this ain't right. We'll be right back. He's probably at the tavern.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

I know you just got a fresh pine in front of you, but we need you right quick. Because Zoon tight.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Excuse me. Allergies am I right?

SPEAKER_03 30:41

No, I don't have those.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Oh rub it in.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

So do you remember the what the one thing I was ever allergic to was? I've told you. That's why I asked, do you remember? Because I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

I think it was the devil you were married to.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

Oh, two things I was allergic to. What's the other one?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

I was allergic to diapers when I was a baby.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Oh, I don't remember you telling me that.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

You don't remember that.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

I know that doesn't say much, but it literally doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

So I uh my mom had to do cloth diapers for me.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Bummer.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yeah. For her lady. For her, I didn't care. I don't remember this time.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

I don't even know if that time was real.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

She could have been making it up.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

As far as I know, I just got here last week. Fuck.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

So by the time that Sid Hatfield learned what was happening out outside of Madawan on May 19th, 1920, the Baldwin Feltz agency had already begun car carrying out the job that they had been sent there to do.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

See, that's just fucking wild because they don't even own the houses.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

So I think they might be right outside Madawan. So not quite in the jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

They set up a town around the town kind of thing, maybe. Okay. Well, still, I mean, does it fall under jurisdiction of Madawan, though? That's that's the question.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

That's the big question. Okay, so okay, so that that morning on May 19th, 1920, 13 agents had arrived on the number 29 train. Not the 30, but the 29. Not the same. And headed towards property belonging to the Stone Mountain Coal Company, where miners who had joined the United Mine workers were living in company-owned houses. Oh, so the company had ordered those families evicted, and Baldwin Feltz had been hired to make sure those orders were carried out. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Baldwin They were company-owned properties.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

They were. They were. Baldwin Feltz agents entered the company houses, removed furniture, personal belongings, and placed them outside, leaving families stranded besides everything beside everything that they owned.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

At least they had a chair to sit in.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Some of those families would eventually move into tents supplied by the union, joining the growing number of miners who had discovered that joining the UMWA could cost them both their job and their home.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

That sounds like a weird basketball league.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

The situation placed Sid in a complicated legal position because he couldn't simply stop an eviction because he supported the miners. The coal companies did own the houses, and tenants could legally be removed under certain circumstances. Sid's objection was that he believed the Baldwin Feltz men did not have the proper legal authority to personally carry out the convictions in the manner that they were doing so.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

So there was another problem. Some of the company property sat outside uh Matawan's incorporated limits, which meant Sid's own authority as the town's police chief was questionable once he left the town himself. Well, of course. Both sides were therefore arguing that the other was operating outside its legal authority, and unfortunately, almost everyone involved in that disagreement was also carrying guns.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

So a line from like unfortunately, like far too many TV shows that I cared to like even count. A lot of them you like like your what's criminal minds. Criminal minds, stuff like that. Don't give me any of that jurismodiction crap.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

They do not say that.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Juris my diction.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

I mean, that that's a specific one I'm referencing, but they say jurisdiction. Yes, they do. Crap. So yes. Obviously, in the in the words.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

So sit confronting the agents and challenge what they were doing. Accounts differ about exactly what was said and where each conversation occurred, but the basic disagreement was clear. Hatfield questioned their authority to remove families, while the Baldwin Feltz men insisted that they were carrying out lawful orders on behalf of the coal company.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

I mean, they're not lawful orders, they're just orders from your company. You can't put law in front of it and make it seem fucking legitimate. Exactly. It's just you're literally, my boss told me to evict these people. It's not lawful.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

But okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

So the agents continued their work and Sid returned towards Matawan. Nobody had opened fire at this time.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Not yet.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Excuse me. Throughout the afternoon, the Baldwin Feltsmen continued removing stri uh striking miners and their families. When their work was finished, they headed back towards Mattawan to catch an evening train out of town. Instead, another confrontation was waiting for them. Oh dear. Mattawan was a small town squeezed in a narrow space between the Tug Fork River and the surrounding Appalachian Mountains. Right. Yeah. The railroad, quick question. Did you grow up knowing that it was pronounced Appalachian? Because I grew up in Nebraska as Appalachian.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

I think I grew up knowing it as Appalachian. Yeah. And I didn't hear Appalachian until much older. Much older.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Same.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah, I'm almost 100% positive. I was taught that these are the Appalachian Mountains. Yep. I had no idea. That's what I was taught. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

So that's how I was taught too. I always take like a half a second to be like Appalachian.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

It's just funny how, especially obviously in the English language, there's so many ways to say different words, or the same word, I should say. Yeah. And it all depends on how you're taught it. So there's no like if you said Appalachian this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

You would know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

100% what you're talking about. I also, because I've learned that it's Appalachian, what it is, but like, even if someone like that's not how you pronounce it, fuck off. That's how I was taught it. Sorry. Yeah. You know, don't, don't people are there's too many fucking word police people these days. Yeah. Just because someone's from a different area, grammar police, whatever police, everything word police, it's like, that's how I learned it. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah. I mean, you can just be nice and say, actually.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Hey, I don't know if you knew this, yes, but it's actually pronounced Appalachian. But you know what? People are dicks because they can go online, write a comment, and fucking walk away and have no fucking recourse for their stupid actions.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Oh, hi Amos.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Amos is in here. He's like, I want to go. Until he's not. He's like, I need to go.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

He's so polite. Mom, I'm ready to get out now.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

He is uh he's a scaredy cat, but he's so polite. He is. He's like, um, didn't mean to bother your podcast. Excuse me. I need to go plotty. Uh he's such a good cat.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

So the railroad ran directly through the community with businesses and buildings clustered close to the tracks. It was a compact environment, sure. Which meant that when the Baldwin Feltz men returned to town, there wasn't much distance separating them from the people who had spent the day hearing about all the evictions.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah, and they were probably like, uh, yeah, it's that fucker right there. Yeah. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

So Sid Hatfield was waiting along with Madouin's mayor, Testerman. Cable Testerman. Sid intended to arrest the Baldwin Feltz agents because he believed the evictions had been conducted illegally. Before he could do that, however, Albert Feltz announced that he had something of his own. He had a warrant for Sid Hatfield's arrest.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Provided from whom?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Hold on. Okay. The situation had now reached the slightly absurd point where the local police chief was attempting to rest to arrest a group of private detectives while one of those detectives was attempting to arrest the police chief.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

See, the problem is that I have with this is he is an elected official, meaning a police chief. They are a privately owned detective company.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Hired.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Because you're called a detective doesn't mean you work for a police force. That's a different thing. There are police detectives.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

A part of the flu the police force.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

When you're called a police detective, yeah. Not just a detective.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

This is the 1920s.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

I could literally be a detective, but that doesn't mean I could put a warrant out for your arrest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

So Mayor Testerman stepped into the dispute and examined the document Albert Feltz claimed, gave him the authority to take Sid into custody. According to Sid's later version of events, Testerman rejected the warrant and declared that it was not valid. Because it's not. This document had been one of the disputed pieces of this Matawan story. Some later accounts said the warrant was fraudulent or forged, while other historians working from the surviving evidence are not, were not ready to exclaim that.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

So with that being said, Testerman did not accept it as a legitimate authority for the Baldwin Feltz men to arrest the police chief. That left the two sides standing within a few feet of one another with the argument continuing. Sid believed he had the th the authority to arrest Baldwin Feltz agents.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

I feel like he has more authority than the Baldwin Feltz agents did. However, they might have been in the wrong at this point, but he technically had more authority to do it because he's an actual police chief, not just a hired gun, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah. So Mayor Testerman was siding with his police chief. Armed Baldwin Feltz men were positioned nearby, and miners and townspeople had gathered around the area.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Apparently, I got a hole in my fucking lip. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Everyone knew what had happened earlier that day, and everyone understood that the argument involved much more than a questionable warrant. For years, miners throughout West Virginia had watched coal companies use private guards and detectives to break strikes, remove union families from company housing, and suppress organizing efforts. Baldwin Feltz had become one of the most hated names in the coal field. I bet. While the agency and the coal operators increasingly viewed armed union supporters as a direct threat to their property and their authority.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

I get that. It just sucks with the whole circular situation.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

You're my employer, you're my landlord, you're you control the grocery prices and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

So that part of it obviously sucks, but if you boil it down to what it is, it's this company's property.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

So I get I do get it, but it's like it's just a shitty fucking situation to be in because you are handcuffed in prison, like I said, to this company.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

And that blows.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

So now representatives of those two sides were sitting face to face in the middle of Mat Matowan. Then someone fired a gun.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Just some random person?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

We don't know. We do not know who fired that shot.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Do you know what would have solved this? I have it right now. A duel. I challenge you to a duel.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

With armed with armed men positioned throughout a crowded area, and the shooting escalating almost immediately, establishing the exact sequence became extremely difficult. Sure. Gunfire erupted around the railroad tracks as Baldwin Feltz agents, miners, and townspeople began shooting from all different directions.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

They're just not worried about hitting innocent bystanders at this point? Apparently not. So, like I mentioned, I just watched Spider-Man movies with my son. That's where I actually watched two, but um it's just funny you watch those movies, and the one I'm specifically thinking of is like Doc Ock, who's he steals Aunt May after robbing the bank, and then Spider-Man fights him. The cops are just shooting into the fucking air at him. It's like they wouldn't actually do that.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Yeah. Not with us, not with a civilian right there, a hostage.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Take that away. They just wouldn't be shooting at a building.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

No. Oh, they were shooting at a building, not him.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

They were trying to shoot at him. He was climbing up a building. Got it. And they're just fire, fire, fire fire.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

You don't know what's beyond the glass.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Exactly. No. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

So some men fired from the street. While others took cover near buildings, and anyone who wasn't participating scrambled out of the way.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

I would hope so.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Mayor Testerman, who had been standing near the center of the confrontation, was struck in the abdomen. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Did I?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

I will tell you. Okay. Yeah, very shortly.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Oh dare.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Albert Feltz was also shot, and according to Sid's later account, he fired at Feltz after seeing the mayor go down. So within a very short amount of time, the street had turned into a close-range gun battle. The shooting appears to have only lasted a matter of minutes, probably less, but it was still devastating.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

I wonder what kind of guns they had back then.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Because it was like I just still think of like a Tommy gun like gangster. I'm sure that's not what it was.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

So by the time the gunfire stopped, seven Baldwin Feltz agents had been killed.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Holy and you said there was 13 of them, right? So six left. Holy shit, that's over 50%.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Albert Feltz and Lee Feltz were two of them.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

The ones that died. The brothers.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

The brothers of the owner. Wow. That's probably not gonna bode well. Two local men were also killed. Okay. And Mayor Testerman was still alive, but the bullet wound to his abdomen was severe. He was taken for medical treatment and died the following day. Altogether, ten men died. And somehow Sid had not been hit.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

That's impressive. Maybe because he orchestrated. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

News of the shooting spread quickly beyond Madawan, and newspapers began referring to the confrontation as the Matawan Massacre. Although it was also interchanged with the Battle of Matatowan, uh Madawan. I'm saying Madawan, but I keep going to Manitowak, which is where I live near.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

So Madawan.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Well, you go to Manitowak, I go to Padawan. So I mean I kind of like the Battle of Madawan better than the Matawan massacre. Because I feel like that's overused in terms of killings. Like, especially back in the 1800s, like, oh the well, they killed a lot of uh Indians, indigenous people, American Indians, whatever you fucking call them these days. It was this massacre, this massacre. So I like the Battle of Madawan better. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

So for miners throughout the region, said Hatfield became proof that the private mine guards were not untouchable. The effect on union organizing was immediate. The United Mine workers used Madawan as evidence of what could happen when miners stood together, and support for the union surged throughout the county.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Oh no shit. Can you imagine how much backing they all of a sudden had? Like we're like, fuck those companies, let's unionize. And um another movie just popped in my head. Cinderella Man, uh Patty Constantine's character. I always say his last name wrong. We got to unionize, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

So according to the National Park Service, by July 1920, more than 90% of the country's excuse me, the county's miners had taken the union oath. Sure. For the coal operators, this was exactly the opposite of what they hoped to have accomplished. Instead of fighting miners away from unionization, the confrontation had transformed Sid into a folk hero and given the organizing campaign a powerful symbol. Sure. Thomas Feltz, the owner, had lost two brothers in Mana in Mattawan, and the agency wasn't going to simply forget what happened. Prosecutors began preparing cases against Sid and the other men believed to have participated in the shooting, while Baldwin Feltz remained deeply involved in the increasingly violent struggle throughout the coal fields.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

So did they know the other people that were involved in the shooting, or are they just guessing? Like, I think he shot. I mean, how do they know? Because they don't even know who shot who fired the first shot, and then one shit went the hit the fan, basically.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I think they had some kind of an understanding because there were quite a few bystanders who went and hid and I suppose, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Okay, fair enough. Yeah. I was just curious because like it seemed like they would not know, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yeah, I don't know, because you can't really visualize the space at the time and know like where everybody is situated, and oh, and that comes into play here in a moment. Okay. So see Sid's future was now tied to a question of who had actually started the Battle of Mata Matawan.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Before that question could be fought over in court, however, Sid made a decision that added a new kind of controversy to the story. It's a little weird.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Mayor Campbell, Cable, Testerman, had died on May 20th from the wound he received. His widow, Jesse, had just lost her husband in one of the most notorious gun battles in West Virginia history. Yeah. 13 days later. She married Sid. Jesse Testerman married Sid Hatfield. Okay, that seems a little funny. It's a weird, it's weird.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

That is extremely fucking weird. You can't tell me grieving widow. Oh, I don't know what to do. So that's that's fucking strange.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Stories were circulating that Sid and Jesse maybe had had been romantically involved before the death. Yeah. More sensational.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

What if Sid shot?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

That was another question. That was a question. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Yep. He's like, honey, I got this. Exactly. Oh, the felt shot.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah, so that was another question. Did he shoot the mayor so he can marry Jesse?

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Because it was a perfect opportunity to accidentally or not him accidentally, but I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

But there is no surviving evidence of anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

I mean having been I can see why that would be a conspiracy theory within this little uh story because 13 fucking days.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Isn't she so grieving?

SPEAKER_03 50:07

You know what's the grieving period? I mean, I'm sure it's more than 13 days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

So Sid had two reputations now. To union miners, he was the police chief who finally stood up to Baldwin Feltz and survived. And he's a charlatan. To enemies, he was a violent gunman whose involvement in Madawan deserved punishment, while the circumstances surrounding his marriage gave them another reason to question his character.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Can you blame people for questioning his character there? I I don't. I mean, I don't give them wow. I understand why they would question it. Yeah, what the word vomit that I was trying to say. So Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

So meanwhile, conditions throughout Mingo County continued to deteriorate. The Battle of Madawan had not ended the strike or settled the question of unionization. Instead, evictions did continue, miners remained in tent colonies, armed confrontations became increasingly common.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

So they happened on a regular basis after that.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

And state authorities became more involved as the conflict escalated. Yeah. And Sid remained at the center of everything. Of course. So his name appeared in newspapers. Miners celebrated him, and coal operators regarded him as the one of the most dangerous symbols of the union uh movement in southern West Virginia. Sure. Sid Hatfield and numerous other men were indicted for their roles in the deaths of the Baldwin Feltz agents, which meant that the chaotic few minutes beside the railroad checks would have to be reconstructed in front of a jury. Sure. Witnesses would be asked to remember where men had been standing, who had fired, and whether the detectives had been attacked or had initiated the violence themselves.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Obviously, we don't have cameras at this time. Not everyone has a camera in their pocket like we do today. But that is so subjective. It's like, well, I don't like that. I saw him right there and he pointed a gun there.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Witnesses are vastly incompetent. Yeah. It's they're not reliable.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Exactly. And I say incompetent because they can be persuaded.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

I would be like the worst witness ever.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

You don't remember what you did yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

What was yesterday?

SPEAKER_03 52:26

It was a Thursday.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Thursday. I think I was at work, but I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

You weren't. Yes, I was. I know.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

My point is witnesses.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

They're not reliable.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

They're not reliable because, especially at this time, they can be bought.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

Very easily. You know what? We'll give your husband his job back in your house if you say this happened. Yeah. And they'd be like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

And that's like hiring um professional um witnesses.

unknown 53:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

They 100%. We'll we'll pay you X amount of dollars for you to say that this person had a disease and well, that's that's even like let's tie it into today.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

History repeats itself.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

We'll pay you money to say that this person has schizophrenia and that's why he shot his wife.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Not even that. We're gonna pay you to go protest. There's literally professional protesters. They don't give a fuck about what they're protesting because they're getting paid to do it. So they just do it. Like, yeah, anti-fascism and I like communism. We're gonna protest for it and shit and whatever. They literally are paid.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Yep. It's a fucking proven thing. I have a bubble.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Oh no, not and it gets stuck, and then I get the hiccups.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

The bubbles.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Okay, I got it.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Hey!

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Okay, so the prosecution wanted Sid Hatfield convicted of murder.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

The miners wanted their hero back, and Thomas Feltz wanted someone held responsible for the deaths of his brothers.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

He wanted retribution.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

In the months following the Battle of Madawan, Sid Hatfield faced serious criminal charges for his role in the gunfight. Which I can understand, even though he's police chief. By early 1921, Sid and several other men were headed to trial for the deaths at Madawan. Rather than attempting to untangle every death from the gunfight at once, they focused first on the killing of Albert Feltz, one of the brothers. Yep. The trial opened in Williamson, the county seat of Mingo County, in January of 1921, roughly eight months after the shooting. Although plenty of time had passed since the battle, there had been not a lot of cooling of temperatures of tempers. The union campaign was still underway. Miners remained on strike. Families continued living in tent colonies, and violence between miners and company forces had become common throughout the region.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Do they get a lot of snow in West Virginia? Is that I don't know. Is that too far so I I've been it's not that far.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

No, it's not too far south. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

I've literally driven into it and back out.

unknown 55:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

That's all I've ever been in West Virginia. So I don't know what their winners are like. Could you imagine? Again, I don't know what their winners are like. So I'm saying this. I was could you imagine living in a tent colony during fucking winter? Yeah. I'm sure their temperatures still get colder, whether they get snow or not. Again, I don't know. But that would suck. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

So the prosecution argued that the Baldwin Feltzmen had been carrying out legitimate business when Sid and other armed union supporters confronted them.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

See, and that's that's the gray area. That's the that's the question. They were. Yeah. It was their company, the company that hired them's property. So it's I know it's tricky. It's super gray.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

So according to this version, the tech detectives had been attacked by a group of men who were already prepared for violence, making the deaths of Albert Feltz and the other agents part of an organized ambush rather than an act of self-defense. Sid's attorneys presented almost the exact opposite version of events. You would hope so. They argue that the Baldwin Feltz men had acted illegally during the evictions, that Albert Feltz had attempted to arrest Sid without legitimate authority, and that it was Feltz who initiated the violence when the confrontation near the railroad tracks reached its breaking point.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

I do agree with the fact that he didn't have a lawful right to carry out the arrest of Sid.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

That's horseshit.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

The problem for both sides was that proving exactly what happened during those first few seconds were incredibly difficult. Once the first shot was fired, people began shooting from several directions.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

It's chaos at that time.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah, while everyone who wasn't participating tried to find cover.

SPEAKER_03 57:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

By the time witnesses were asked to reconstruct the scene months later, their accounts differed over where people were standing, who had drawn a weapon first, and most importantly, who had fired first. Of course. Some of those contradictions may have been deliberate, especially in a community where people had very strong loyalties. See, and that's my point. Others were probably the natural result result of asking frightened witnesses to accurate accurately remember a chaotic gun battle that had lasted only a few minutes.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

Well, and and anyone who's been through anything really traumatic, it fucks with your brain.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

You're not going to remember everything properly, especially depending on how involved or how deep, however you want to say it, you are into that situation, we'll call it. You know, a person could get into a car crash and I don't remember anything up until this point or or before this point, or whatever it is. Just random things like that.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah. Your brain chemistry is like altered.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

You're done cracking your fingers.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Okay. So Sid has his own version of what happened, and unsurprisingly, it placed responsibility for starting the shoot shooting on Albert Feltz. Yeah. According to Sid, Mayor Testerman had examined the document that supposedly authorized his arrest and rejected it. The argument continued. Feltz drew his weapon and the shooting began. Sid maintained that he fired only after Feltz had already opened fire and Testerman had been hit. That version supported Sid's claim that he had acted in response to an armed attack rather than participating in a planned ambush. But there's no way to prove every part of it. Of course not. Prosecutors had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sid and the other defendants had murdered Albert Felds, and the conflicting testimony made that extremely difficult. The location of the trial also mattered. Oh, really? Mingo County was not some distant community hearing about the mine worst for the first time. The jurors lived in the same region where their coal companies, union organizers, organizers, and Baldwin Feld's agents had been fighting for control. It's called the Mine Warst. Yes. They understood that the detective agency represented and they had spent months watching Sid Hatfield become one of the most recognizable men in the in the county.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

That didn't automatically mean that they would acquit him.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

No.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Prosecutors were certainly not presenting their case to an audience that had no opinions about Baldwin Feltz.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

The trial dragged on for weeks as witnesses gave competing accounts of the Mata One shooting, and attorneys argued over who had been responsible for turning the confrontation into a gun battle. What is happening here? Eventually, after hearing the evidence, the jury began deliberating. Okay. On March 19th, 1921, they returned their verdict. Sid Hatfield and the other defendants being tried along with him were found not guilty of murdering Albert Feltz. Okay. For the minors who had already transformed Sid into a hero, the verdict seemed to confirm everything that they had already believed about Madawan. Sure. The acquittal also created a practical problem for anyone hoping to prosecute the remaining Mattawan killings, because remember they only did the one. Right. If the state couldn't secure a convict conviction in the death of Albert Feltz after weeks of testimony, they probably won't be able to do that for anyone else. So the remaining cases eventually fell apart, living leaving Sid free from prosecution.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

Sid free.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Unfortunately for Sid, winning in court did absolutely nothing to make Southern West Virginia less dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

During the spring and summer of 1921, conditions in Mingo County continued to deteriorate as confrontations between miners, company guards, and state authorities became increasingly violent. Yeah. But his growing fame also made him a target. Oh no. There was plenty of unfinished business in the coal fields. It didn't take long for Sid to find himself facing another criminal charge. Oh boy, hello. In May of 1921, violence broke out around a mining operation near Mohawk, Mohawk in neighboring McDowell County.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:44

So this is a year after the incident. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

During the incident, shots were fire fired um at a coal tipple, which is a structure used in the processing and loading of coal. Oh, okay. And authorities accused Sid Hatfield and his friend, the former deputy Ed Chambers, of participating in the attack. Sid denied that he had been there, and his defense maintained that witnesses could place him somewhere else when the shooting occurred. So they're just like he had an alibi.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

But we're but we're telling you he was there. He was over fucking here.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

And even with that alibi, charges moved forward, which presented Sid with a new problem because his case wasn't going to be in Mingo County. It was going to be in McDowell County.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

Where he didn't have as much support.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

That mattered. Because McDowell County was deeply tied to coal industry. Weird. And Sid's attorneys had serious concerns about whether he would receive a fair trial there. They requested that the case be moved to another county, and the change of venue was eventually granted. Sid Growing's fame carried him far beyond the mountains of West Virginia. The violence in the coal fields had attracted national attention, and the United States Senate began investigating conditions surrounding the labor conflict. Oh wow. Sid traveled to Washington, D.C., where he testified about Madawan and the treatment of minors in Mingo County. It was a remarkable transformation for a man who spent his life in the coal fields. Within a relatively short period, Sid had gone from working in the mines and serving as police chief in this tiny town to sitting before federal lawmakers while the country debated labor rights, corporate power, and the use of private-owned forces against workers.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:37

Was his new wife sitting next to him?

unknown 1:03:40

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Sid used the opportunity to repeat his version of the Mattawan confrontation. He argued that Baldwin Felt had acted illegally, describing the conflicts surrounding the minors and defended the actions he had taken as the police chief.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

The conflict in West Virginia had become part of a national argument over how much power corporations should be allowed to exercise over workers and whether private detective agencies could effectively function as armed police forces in company-controlled communities. Communities.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

So their attorneys expected the appearance to be largely procedural during the case before their case was transferred. So Sid understood that traveling into McDowell County carried risks. Oh no. He was walking into an area where coal operators wield enormous influence. Yes. And Baldwin Felt's agents were active throughout the county. Oh boy. According to later accounts, Sid was warned that going to this courthouse could be dangerous, but ignoring the court also wasn't an option.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:10

Well, you can't do that, obviously, because then you're I don't know if it's contempt of court or whatever, but it's not good, so you kind of have to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

So the morning of August 1st, 1921, Sid prepared to take the trip. Ed Chambers with with was with him. And at this time, both wives were with.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Did Jesse change her last name to Sid?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:38

Or she's still every time you said, uh, what was his name? Test Testerman? Testerman. I th I always think of testosterone. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

So the four made their way and approached the McDowell County Courthouse. Oh boy. And as far as the official legor legal process was concerned, ended, Ed and Sid were simply defendants, arrested. For a scheduled court appearance in a case that was being moved elsewhere. Okay. By waiting around the courthouse. Sorry, but waiting around the courthouse were Baldwin Feltz agents who knew exactly who was coming and when.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:14

So I feel like they're basically they put a hit out on them. So I want to just preemptively say that's illegal.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

He and Ed approached the courthouse with Jesse and Sally beside them and started up the staircase to the entrance, but they never made it inside.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:34

Because they were shot.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

On the morning of August 1st, 1921, Sid and Ed approached the building with their wives. The courthouse sat prominently in downtown Welch, and reaching the entrance required climbing a long exterior staircase from the street below. There was nothing secret about why the two men were there.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

They were defendants reporting for scheduled court appearance. Reporting for do they several Baldwin Felt agents were already in the area. As Sid climbed the courthouse steps, gunfire erupted. He was struck repeatedly and collapsed on the stairs. Jesse was close enough to witness her husband being shot directly in front of her.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

That's twice for her.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

Yes, it was. I don't know if she was at the train.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:22

I don't know, but twice for her. Yes. That her husband got gunned down.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

That's fucked up. Ed Chambers was also hit, but unlike Sid, he did not immediately die.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:32

But they were also no pun intended gunning for Sid, though. Yes. Not so much Ed because of Sid's role, whatever you want to say, within everything. They're they they blamed him for the Phelps brother's death. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:54

So um according to eyewitness accounts, Chambers was wounded and fell on the staircase. His wife Sally rushed towards him and tried to protect him. More shots were fired. One of the most disturbing details of the courthouse shooting comes from Sally Chambers' account. She maintained that after Ed had already fallen, Baldwin Felt's agents approached and continued firing at him while she pleaded them to stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

By the time the shooting end ended, both Sid and Ed were dead. Their wives were left standing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:28

Ed did get killed. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

The wives were left standing on the courthouse steps beside their bodies.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

So please tell me you're gonna you're going to tell me what happened to these Baldwin-Feltz people.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

Thank God, because you can't just fucking do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

That's it. So story ends. The Baldwin Feltz men involved claimed that they had acted in self-defense.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:56

Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

According to their version, Sid and Ed had been armed and the agents fired because they believed the two men were reaching for their weapons. Of course, witnesses offered very different accounts. Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:10

I mean, come on. That is such a fucking weak goddamn thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Several witnesses maintained that Sid had not drawn his gun before the shooting began and that the Baldwin Felt agents had been waiting for him.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:24

Did he have a gun on him? Yeah. He did. Okay. Just wanted to get some context here because I know. We're basically in the Wild Wild West here. Or east for that matter. But um I just I know. Good lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

It was hardly unusual for Sid to be carrying to not be carrying a firearm.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:49

So well, he was police chief after all. So I mean I guess I can kind of understand that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

So what mattered was whether he actually reached for a weapon before the the Baldwin Feltz opened fire. But later retelling sometimes described the courthouse shooting simply as an assassination. Okay. And from the miners' perspective perspective, that's exactly what it was.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:11

Hundred percent, yes. It was an assassination.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Sid had been summoned to court, Baldwin Feltz agents were waiting for him, and he had been shot before he even entered the building.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

The legal system, however, would have to determine whether the agents had committed murder.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Word traveled quickly through southern West Virginia. The reaction among miners was immediate and furious. Okay. For miners who already distrusted the coal companies, Baldwin Felt and local authorities said its death seemed to confirm their worst assumptions.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:43

Well, I was gonna say it's gonna drive everybody into unionizer. Right? I mean, whether he was a little, we'll call him a folk hero, if you will, for the miners or not, hey, this company hired this these people to murder this guy. Whether they say it was self-defense or not is just pure speculative bullshit. They hired him to murder him.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:13

And they killed uh Ed, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

So if the companies couldn't beat him in Madawan and prosecutors couldn't beat him in court, Baldwin Feltz would simply kill him. Would literally beat him on the road. And that was how thousands of miners understood what had happened, and their belief would have enormous consequences. Sid had been dangerous to the coal operators while he was alive, dead, he became a martyr.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

Baldwin Feltz agents were charged in connection with the courthouse killings. Um among the accused was a man named Um C. E. Lively, George Pence, and William Salters. Lively was already a particular, particularly notorious figure among Union miners. Oh, really? He had previously infiltrated the union movement while working as an informant for Baldwin Feltz. Oh shit. Presenting himself as sympathetic to the minors while secretly reporting information back to the agency.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:13

I mean, that's not uncommon. I mean, people still do that today.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

His role in Sid's death, therefore, seemed almost perfectly designed to deepen the mind's hatred of Baldwin Feltz. Right. The men accused of killing uh Sid and Ed maintained that they had acted in self-defense, and the case went to trial, and they were acquitted.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

Are you fucking kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

Both cases had involved conflicting eyewitness testimony and competing claims for self-defense. Miners sought a system that protected the coal companies and the men who worked for them. The anger surrounding Sid's death spread throughout the coal fields.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

I fucking hope so. They were fucking acquitted. That is complete horseshit.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

Sid's body was taken home to Madawan. Thousands of people came to pay their respects. Contemporary estimates vary, but more than 2,000 mourners repeatedly reportedly attended his funeral.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

An enormous turnout for a man who had been relatively unknown, uh, except for this small town. Jesus Christ. Miners traveled from surrounding communities to see him buried. The funeral became another demonstration of how deeply the labor comp labor conflict had divided southern West Virginia. Sure. On the one side were the coal companies, private guards, and local officials determined to keep the region largely non-union.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

And on the other were thousands of minors who increasingly believed that normal political and legal methods had failed them. Sid's murder pushed that belief much further.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

The legal fucking system did fucking disappoint. We'll just say that. They got a fucking acquitted.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Even before Sid was killed, miners throughout West Virginia had been discussing ways to support the union campaign in Mingo County. Wow. The situation there had been severe enough that martial law had been imposed. Sure. Union activity was restrict restricted, miners were arrested, and stories of abuse by authorities circulated throughout mining communities. That's sad. To miners living elsewhere in the state, Mingo County became a symbol of what could happen if coal operators succeeded in destroying the Union. There had already been talk about an armed march into the region since death poured gasoline on that anger. Throughout August of 1921, miners began gathering in the valley, particularly around the small community of Marmette near Charleston. Many arrived carrying rifles and ammunition. Thousands of miners intended to march through south, excuse me, march south through West Virginia across Logan County and continue towards Mingo County, where they hoped to free imprisoned minors and support the Union campaign. This wasn't a protest march involving signs and speeches. These men were armed. Estimates vary, but eventually somewhere around 10,000 minors participated. Wow. Many were veterans of World War I who had military experience and knew how to use the rifles.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

Standing between them and Mingo County was Logan County. Logan County had its own powerful figure, Sheriff Don Chain. Chaffin was firmly aligned with the coal operators and had built a network of deputies and armed supporters throughout the county. That's right, yeah. Then, when word spread that thousands of Union miners were marching towards Logan, Chain began organizing a defensive force to stop them. Oh boy. The miners would have to cross Blair Mountain. What followed became the largest armed labor uprising in American history and one of the largest armed confrontations on American soil since the Civil War.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:09

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

For several days, miners and Chain's forces exchanged gunfire. Good lord. Private aircraft were used to drop homemade bombs on miners' positions. Holy fuck. Thousands of rounds of ammunition were fired, and eventually the federal government intervened.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:29

About fucking time.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

President Warren G. Harding sent federal troops into West Virginia along with Army aircraft.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

Good lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

The arrival of front federal soldiers created a dilemma for the miners. Yeah. Many of them had served in the United States military only years earlier. Sure. They had been willing to fight coal company guards, private detectives, and local deputies, but fighting soldiers of the United States Army was different. A little bit. The miners began surrendering and returning home. The Battle of Blair Mountain was over. In the short term, the union movement in southern West Virginia suffered badly. Hundreds of miners were indicted. Union membership collapsed in the region, and coal operators maintained enormous control over the southern coal fields for years afterwards. Isn't that sad? It would take another generation, along with major changes in federal labor law, during the New Deal before organized labor gained the strength in southern West Virginia that miners had been fighting for during Sid Hatfield's lifetime. And that is the Battle of Mattawan.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:40

Wow. That is fucking crazy. Isn't that loaded? Yeah, that is just wild. I've never fucking heard of any of this. That's why I like what we do. Yeah. Because I never heard of any of that. How did you find this story?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Um, I sadly I didn't write his name down, but I I saw a video of someone who documented like the anniversary of August 1st, I think. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:04

Um again, this is why we do what we do. I have never heard of any of that. Yeah. I couldn't have told you who Sid was or young Madawan. Sorry. Combine young Padawan with Madawan. I can't not think of Padawan when you say Madawan. I've never heard any of this. Yeah, same as that. That's fucking wild. And do you know, unfortunately, what my weirdest take for this whole story is? 13 fucking days and you marry him? What the fuck, man? That is really fucking weird. It is kind of weird. That is a weird tidbit of the story. Um, everything else makes sense. Not at all. But no, I mean that timing, ripe for fucking unionizing and all that, that was a big thing, especially back then. Um from what I know. And again, I don't know anything, but wow. 13 days. Welp. I suppose. Alright, buffoons, that's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:26

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SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

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SPEAKER_03 1:19:45

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SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

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