The Earth Needed to Cough: Pompeii

Morning Banter and Subscribing

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Oh hey there.

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I'm Kate.

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I'm Bradley.

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This is the History Buffoons. Woohoo!

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Welcome.

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How are you?

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I am well. How are you? I'm good.

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I just realized I don't have a beverage with me.

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I don't either. I just finished my monster.

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Rat row. I think.

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Now I officially did. We're doing an early morning recording, so no beers today.

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You're welcome.

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Yes, because we appreciate you people, and because we don't have any beer to introduce, I'm just gonna go ahead and get started.

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Well, I don't see why we wouldn't because what you just said.

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Excuse me.

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You're excused.

Why Pompeii Still Haunts Us

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We're gonna talk about Pompeii.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Oh, Pompeii.

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Yeah, what do you know about Pompeii?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

I know a lot of people died. Mount Vesuvius. It's neighboring town Hercule Herculean.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Herculineum?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, I always say it wrong. Um, they also got fucked up. Um, Tom Hiddleston just did a show on it, uh, National Geographic.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I saw some of it because Sarah watched it. It was very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

So that's why this is all fresh?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Uh probably. I mean, I knew about Pompeii anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Well, yeah, but like Herculineum or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, I again I always say that town name wrong. I know that Kit Harrington died in the movie uh because he was there. I do an uh with uh Emily Browning. Um yeah, you know, Ash everywhere. Yeah, choked him out. People uh encomp entombed, I guess, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

And that's exactly my podcast at this uh wealth, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I I I've known a lot about Pompeii just because I I like that stuff. Yeah. So what do you got to tell me about it? Because maybe I'll learn something new.

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Yeah, sure.

How Volcanoes Actually Work

SPEAKER_04 2:40

So do you know why like all volcanoes are even a thing? Uh isn't that because the earth has got a cough and yes, in fact.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Um, they're a thing because of the oh no, why don't you tell me?

SPEAKER_04 3:07

Do you have the earth has to cough and that might be our title? Um, so it is the tectonic plates that are underneath um the earth.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

And they move.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

These plates are constantly moving. Yeah. Um, although it's so slow we don't really notice.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

No. I heard once, and I I'm probably gonna get the number wrong, but like, because that's in that sense what formed the Rocky Mountains as well. Um, I want to say I heard something they grow like something small number. I don't know the number, so I'm not gonna say it, just a random one. Yeah, like a year. And it's like it's so minimal, you wouldn't you wouldn't know. But that's why it happens over millions of years, is why it's as tall as it is now. Right. So yeah, it's it's very, very slow. Very slow.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

Yes, yes. So these plates are constantly moving. Some move apart from one another, some slide alongside each other, and some push directly into each other. Yeah. And when two plates collide, sometimes one is like forced underneath the other.

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Sure.

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And that's called a subduction.

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Okay.

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As that plate like sinks deeper into the earth, it releases water and other materials into the hot mantle above it. And that changes the conditions enough that some of the surrounding rock then begins to melt.

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Sure.

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And that molten rock is magma.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Liquid hot magma.

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Magma. So because magma is generally less dense than the solid rock surrounding it, it can begin working its way up through the cracks and weaknesses in the earth's crust.

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Right. Okay.

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So sometimes it never reaches the surface, sometimes it just collects underground.

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Right, yeah.

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And sometimes it finds its way.

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Yeah. And like the earth is like Hawaii.

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Oh, Lord have mercy. What a morning it's been already.

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Don't write that one down.

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Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I mean, it's a good explanation. Maybe I'll teach Xavier that's why volcanoes happen.

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Yeah, cough. Hawaii. So, yeah, so that's when we get our volcanoes. Um, the same movement of tectonic plates also helps explain why volcanic regions frequently experience earthquakes.

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Right, yeah.

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So as plates push and pull and grind against one another, enormous amounts of stress um can build into that surrounding rock.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

So is is the reason why California is so earthquake prone is because it's part of like like the north south. There's a yeah. And then what is that is that Mount St. Helens? Is that what's is Washington, yeah. Um, so is that all kind of like part of the same?

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I'm not sure if it's part of the same, I would assume because tectonic plates are actually pretty large.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah, so that's I I'm not sure either, but that would make sense to me if it was.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Yeah, that would make sense to me. All right, but yeah, I did not look into Mount St. Helens. No, of course. I have a false memory of being alive during Mount St. Helens. How? Like, I think I was around when it didn't that happen in the 80s? Yeah, so I was not alive, but I have a false memory of being alive.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

You were negative four.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Yeah, I was negative four. Isn't that weird?

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I was alive.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Is that the Mandela effect?

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Uh I thought Mandela effect meant like you remember something, but then it didn't really happen. But that actually happened, and you just weren't there.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

That's fair.

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So I don't know if that really is accurate for Mandela Effect, but I I don't know.

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Maybe I was just really young when I heard about it, and I was like, I was there. I don't know.

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Well, I'm glad you got out of there. Jesus Christ.

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So when I laugh, I end up coughing and then I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, so we apologize. Uh, maybe I should get one of those uh those cough buttons where you you press it and it cuts the mic while you cough.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Oh, is that a thing?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah, oh yeah. They they use it on radio all the time, they use it in recordings, yeah. Oh I might look into that for you.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Yeah. I cough a lot because you make me laugh.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Sorry. That's my portion of the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

Yes, yes. Okay, so eventually something slips or breaks, and the stored energy is then released, and then the ground shakes. So magma moving underground can cause earthquakes too.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh, it can, okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

As it forces its way through the rock, it can create new fractures and widen existing ones. Makes sense. So earthquakes and volcanoes often show up in the same neighborhoods, although an earthquake near a volcano doesn't automatically mean that a volcano is about to erupt.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

No, but it certainly doesn't help the matter, it seems, because again, I have no data to back this up.

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Have you ever been in an earthquake?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

I have not, no. Well, technically, Wisconsin got one a few years ago.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yeah, like we've had what?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

But um, no, I've never actually been in an earthquake. Yeah. But you always hear about like when volcanoes erupt, that usually there's an earthquake that goes along with it. Yeah. Usually.

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Yeah.

Italy’s Chaotic Tectonic Neighborhood

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So one of the more complicated geological neighborhoods of Earth happens to be in the Mediterranean. So Italy sits in an area where several excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

I know I wouldn't have made it. No, you wouldn't have. That those come too quick for me.

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My little hiccup with weird things.

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Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

Um, so Italy sits um in a place where several pieces of the Earth's crust interact.

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Right.

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The African plate is moving generally northwards, while the Eurasian plate moves between those two plates, and then there are also like additional micro plates all around Italy that are also moving and rotating and interacting with one another. Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Um, so basically what you're saying is a lot of shit's going on.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

A lot of shit is going on around Italy. Yeah. All right. One of the most important around Italy is the Adriatic microplate. Okay. So rather than imagining any Italy sitting on like two giant puzzle pieces, there's like several pieces being pushed together and shoved and and every which way.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Why don't you call it Italy? Sorry. That's a callback.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

It's because I say Italy.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

No, it's because it's a side. No, I say Italy.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

I say Italian, and I say Italy and Italian.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Just consistency would be nice. I know.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

We could have just gotten past that, but whatever.

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I had to bring it up.

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So Italy has like a terrible seat assignment. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

It's like they're it's like they're laborting the plane right between two fat guys in a small ass bro. It's like, come on, man.

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Yeah.

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I got a room, and they're gonna push them up.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Yes, thank you so much for the visual.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

You're welcome. I mean, you know, Italy.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

All of that movement with the microplates um has helped shape the Italian, there it is, the Italian peninsula over millions of years. Called it. So it's one of the reasons why Italy experiences significant earthquakes, sure, and why Italy has volcanoes. Yeah, so southern Italy in particular has several volcanic systems.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I was gonna ask how many. Did did you see how many they have?

SPEAKER_04 10:58

I didn't look into it.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

That wasn't part of my question.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I mean, obviously, Mount Vesuvius is the one we're talking about with Pompeii, but yeah, I wonder, I'm curious now how many they may have.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

There's several right around there.

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We'll have to look into that.

SPEAKER_04 11:10

So for the people who were living there 2,000 years ago, none of this was understood. Of course not. No, the ground shook. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Like, oh dude, that was weird.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Yeah. So plate tectonics wouldn't become accepted science until the 20th century. Right. So ancient Romans knew the ground shook. They knew mountains existed that produced fire and ash.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

Um, ancient writers attempted to explain the these phenomena, but nobody could tell what that the continents were moving slowly, that slabs of crust were descending, etc. etc. Yeah.

Pompeii Before the Ashfall

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So in the first century AD, Numero Uno, the first one, uh-huh. One of the cities sitting in this geologically active part of Italy was Pompeii.

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Yes.

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So when we think of Pompe about Pompeii, we think about how it ended.

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Yeah, that's usually what you think of first.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Yes, the ash, the bodies, the plaster casts. Yes. The streets and buildings were buried underneath all this volcanic material. But before Pompeii became one of the most famous archaeological sites in the world, it was simply somebody's hometown.

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Yeah, I mean, a lot of people lived there.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

A lot of people lived there. Thousands of people lived there. Yeah. Yeah. So they woke up every morning, they went to work, they bought bread, they went fishing, they drank wine, they gambled. Um, cities had bakeries and taverns, and wealthy families lived in elaborate homes decorated with mosaics and frescoes. Um, outside the cities were farms and orchards and vineyards. Yep. And this was a very productive part of the Roman world. Sure. Pompeii was also, in fact, still recovering from another major disaster.

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What was that?

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In 62 or 63 AD, a powerful earthquake struck the region around the Bay of Naples, which is a kind of well, it's a bay.

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Around Naples.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

Around Naples, in fact, yeah. Um, buildings were damaged, temples needed repairs, so they were still recovering from this earthquake. Wow. When when uh Vers Vesuvius hit.

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Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yes. And you could they could tell that there was evidence of this area being rebuilt when they uncovered Pompeii.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Yeah, that's how they knew. That's crazy. So they could see the repairs. Yeah. More earthquakes occurred after, but earthquakes were a part of the life in this region. So when smaller tremors occurred, there wasn't necessarily a reason for someone to think we need to leave the city right now. Yeah, evacuate. Yeah. They didn't know what was happening underneath Italy. Right. So life continued until 79 AD.

Warning Quakes and a Quiet Volcano

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Not only 1900 years before weird.

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About five miles north of Pompeii stood a mountain rising more than 4,000 feet above the surrounding countryside. Okay. Mount Vesuvius.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

That's crazy. Yeah, 4,000 feet. That pales in comparison to some of the mountains I've been on in Colorado.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

What's what's the highest that you remember being on out in Colorado?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Uh, the one I like going up is Mount Evans, and I will forever call it Mount Evans. Fuck off woke people for changing the name. I don't even remember what the new name is. Um, and that's 14,000.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

And some change. So, yeah. They have a bunch that they call the 14ers. It's they're literally all over 14,000. So um that's for some reason I always just really enjoy going up that one. So yeah. Until they changed the name.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

It just um there was no major eruption within living memory during this time. Okay. Okay. And the mountain didn't necessarily look like what we have seen Vesuvius look like today. An eruption of 79 would dramatically alter its summit.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Well, yeah, it would have.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

I mean, that's what happened with Mount St. Helens, too.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

It would have oh my god, yeah. That you remember for yeah. Yeah, I mean, the the amount of force and everything, it just just obliterates what is currently there and changes it. And obviously, then the the liquid hot magma comes out and makes new shit and whatever. So I mean, yeah, it's way different than what it would have been.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

And we keep saying magma like that because it's a shout-out to Austin Powers.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yes, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Yes. Some people are not as cool as we are, and so we have to say, Why the folks they say magma like that? Do you because of Austin Powers?

SPEAKER_01 15:56

And you just proved my point of what I was just gonna say, and there's also a lot of people that are way cooler than us. Why do they say magma? What did this 89-year-old man all of a sudden come into the room?

SPEAKER_03 16:13

But why?

SPEAKER_04 16:17

So there was a Greek geographer named Strabo who had written decades uh before the eruption, who had described the summit of Vesubius as barren and covered with rock that looked as though it had once been burned by fire.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So it erupted previously previously.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Yeah. So he suggested that the fire the mountain may have once contained what he described as caters of fire that had eventually died out.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

So at least some ancient observers recognize that something fiery had happened there.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

But recognizing evidence of ancient fire is very different than understanding that you're living beside an active volcano capable of enormous eruption and devastation. Right, yeah. And Vesuvius certainly didn't look threatening enough to keep people away. The lower slopes were very fertile. Vineyards covered the surrounding countryside. Wine produced around Vesuvius had a reputation throughout the Roman world, and farms took advantage of the rich soil. We should totally buy some wine.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Oh, we should. Do you think we can find uh Vesuvius wine? Yeah, let's make that.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Vesuvius wine.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Vesuvius wine, but we're gonna have to. I don't have the money to uh invest in Italy. No, but um, yeah, I'd be down to see if we can find some from the region.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

That'd be kind of cool. Yeah. Maybe we'll try that on a future uh podcast for a uh callback to this episode.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

I feel like we need to close the window. My neighbors are mowing.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Is that better? Damn it. After these messages. Alright, we tried to uh eliminate a sound.

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The mowers.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I mean, it's still nice out, so people are mowing their lawns. I don't blame them.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Saturday morning, though. Come on, folks.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

That's when people get shit done.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

I get my shit done Sunday mornings. This is why we're doing this Saturday morning, because it's when we get shit done. Because we couldn't do it yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Okay, so across the

Pliny the Elder Enters the Story

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Bay of Naples. Yes. So it's like we had to like see the bay. Pompeii. Across the bay.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Button.

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I think I might look into that.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah. Um, about twenty miles from Pompeii was Miz Mizinum.

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Mizinum.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Mizinum.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Okay. Missinum? I don't know. Starts with an M.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

It looks like Museum.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Mizinum.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Okay, I trust one of those is correct.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

This was home to one of the two Roman major naval fleets.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

That is a mouthful.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

That was should not have been.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

It shouldn't have been, but it was.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

One of the two major naval fleets of Rome. Oh wow, really? Okay. And the one that I'm speaking about is Classus Mesanesis. Mesanesis. Misenesis. Classis Misenesis.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Classic. Classic. And it was responsible for protecting the western Mediterranean. Sure. And in 79 AD, the man commanding that fleet was named Gaius Plinius Secundus.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Is it Gaius or Gaius?

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Oh, it could be Gaius.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Because that's a common old old timey Roman name.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

We'll go for Gaius. Gaius Plinius Secundus. Thankfully, I don't have to say Gaius again because we're going to call him Pliny the Elder.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I've heard of him.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

Have you?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. What?

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Do you want to continue with the story?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, I would like to go on.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

I can't believe you like just learned about it on TV.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Well, so here's the funny thing. I didn't watch the show all the way through. Sarah did. I caught part of it. I love Tom Hiddleston, so I'm like, ah, hey, look at.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Was he like the narrator or something? The host?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

He was the host slash narrator and he went around with different people. He actually did it a really cool way. I think you should watch it. You would probably like it because you also like Tom Hiddleston. Um, but I thought it was kind of cool the way that Loki. Yes. Okay. Maybe you don't like him as much as I thought.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

No, I do. I get him and Spider-Man. What's his name?

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Holland.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

Yeah, I get those two confused. Understandable. Tom H is you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Tom Hardy.

unknown 20:54

What?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

I love Tom Hardy. Anyways, uh. But um, so he I like the way they did it because what the way the approach again, from what I saw, I didn't watch the entire thing. But the approach that he took with it is they were they tried to, like, kind of like what we do, focus on certain people within this jump this more elaborate story, if you want. Awesome. So they were actually trying to find these certain people if they made it out alive from Pompeii. Um, so I really like how he did it. I want to go back and watch it myself again. I only caught it.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah, I mean, now that we're talking about it, I want to watch it now.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

So I watched um I watched more um um archaeological type videos to kind of explain like how they figured out certain things, but sure. Um that kind of reminds me of the Zachary Quintino um show.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Zachary Quinto.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Quinto, yeah, Zachary Quinto show on um the Roanoke colony.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Because I watched that, I was like, dude, that's so cool. I want to watch that. I mean, research that. Let's continue.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah, let's move on.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

Pliny the Elder. Yeah. So Pliny the Elder was a weird choice of person to have anywhere near an erupting volcano. He was in his mid-50s and he already had like several careers packed into one lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Is that age range old for that time? Do they live longer? I don't know what the average lifespan was.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

I don't know what the lifespan was.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Okay. I mean, I'm sure it was.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

But according to a hundred million ways to or a million ways to die in the west, people were living till 35 back in those days. So I'd imagine 55 is old.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

I would, I mean, yeah, I know I'm only eight years from it. So it is old.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

He served in the Roman military. He had worked as an imperial administrator, and he was an author. Oh. And he studied and read like you wouldn't believe. That's awesome. He studied geography, astronomy, animals, plants, medicine, minerals, basically anything he could get someone to tell him about.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

He would listen.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

He was a collector of knowledge. He wanted it all.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I think that's probably why I know of his name, honestly. But all right.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

His n nephew later described a man who was almost um physically incapable of wasting time. Which I kind of love that description.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

No, that's pretty great.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

Pliny the Elder read constantly. If he was eating, someone else was reading to him. If he was traveling, he would study. If he was bathing, someone would read to him.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

I feel like if if he was eating, someone would be reading to him. He should just be reading if someone's shoveling food into his mouth. I feel like he did it wrong there.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

He did it backwards. Um, but he dictated and he took copious notes. His nephew claimed that he eventually accumulated around 160 volumes of extracts written on both sides with extremely small handwriting. Wow. Yeah. Also, nighttime was not safe. No. According to his nephew, Pliny the Elder frequently began working before dawn and slept very little. So maybe he was an insomniac. But he would have absolutely loved Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

He'd be changing it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Next. Wrong.

unknown 24:24

Wrong.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

All right.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

Okay, so living with him was his sister and her son. So the nephew.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

The son was another Gaius Plinius. Okay. And he is Pliny the Younger.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I mean, that tracks.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

It does track.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Pliny the elder, Pliny the younger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

He was about 17 years old in 79 A.D. and had lost his father when he was young. His uncle became an enormously important figure in his life and would eventually adopt him. Oh, sure. So younger Pliny was already serious about his education. He would go on to have an impressive Roman career of his own. He became a lawyer, a senator, a government official, and a provincial governor.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

So what you're saying is he survived.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

He did.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah, I gathered that. He did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

But the reason why we're interested in him, um, Pliny the Younger also became a famous writer. You know this.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

I believe so.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Yeah. Awesome. I love that for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Tell me.

SPEAKER_04 25:28

I will.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Yes, because folks don't know. I didn't know. Well. Well, what? Let's continue. Bloodhead. Years after the events, one of the most famous historians in Rome at the time asked him a question. That his story was Tacitus.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Tacitus.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Tacitus wanted to know what had happened to Pliny's uncle, because Pliny the Elder had died in the disaster.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

So Pliny the Younger wrote back, and then he wrote another letter, so a second letter, describing what he himself had experienced. These two letters are the reason that we can follow portions of this eruption through the eyes of someone who was there. Sure. But on the day it began, Pliny the Younger had no idea he was about to become one of history's most important witnesses to a volcanic eruption.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Right, of course not.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

So he was with his mother and uncle at Mizingham. And the morning was not apocalyptic.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

No, it was like any other morning. But there had been earthquakes.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

But again, some like small ones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Like it wasn't anything obnoxious.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Yeah. Pliny actually later said that the tremors had been occurring for several days at this point.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Oh wow. Okay. Yes. So it was building up. Yeah. But nobody was alarmed. Well, why would they be? Because they also didn't understand it fully.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Yeah. So the ground shaking wasn't enough by itself to convince anyone that something was about to

The Strange Cloud and a Rescue Call

SPEAKER_04 27:01

happen. Um, but sometime around midday or early afternoon, Pliny's mother noticed something. There was a cloud rising in the distance. And Pliny or uh she pointed out to Pliny the Younger. And Pliny the Elder was like, huh? That ain't right. Education? What? Tell me all. Tell me all. Um from Mizenum, they couldn't tell what mountain it was rising from. Gotcha. Yes. But it was enormous. Sure. Pliny the Younger later struggled to describe its shape, and this is years after the event, as I said.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

The best comparison he could make was to a tree that was common to the area, a stone pine. The cloud seemed to rise upward on a long trunk and then spread outward into branches at the top.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Sometimes it appeared white. Other portion looks dirty and mottled, um, depending on how much earth and ash it was carrying. Pliny the Elder looked at this gigantic bizarre cloud rising into the sky and decided, I'm gonna go over there. I'm gonna go look.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yeah. So he ordered a small, fast vessel to peek to prepare.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And what was that?

SPEAKER_04 28:18

I don't know the name of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Give me a speedboat.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Fill her up, boys.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I'm going on a trip.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

So Pliny the Elder, the man who had spent his entire adult life collecting information, needed to investigate what was happening.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Well, he can't just let this go by.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

He offered his nephew the chance to come along, but Pliny was like, I actually have homework. No joke. He was like, I got some stuff to do.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I got an exam this week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

So he stayed behind to study.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

That's crazy. I know how cute. And how fortuitous that he didn't die.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Like his elder.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

Yeah. Yeah. So.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Before um Linny the elder left, a message arrived. It came from a woman named Rectina. What is it? Rectina. Rectina. We're gonna say Rectina, not Rectina. Rectina. She literally lived near the base of the mountain. Unsure of how it got from A to B, because they were 20 miles away, at least. Unsure.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Um but she asked Pliny the the elder to help her escape.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Weird. So did he receive this letter or did he already leave?

SPEAKER_04 29:33

He received the letter and then he left.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Gotcha. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:37

So Rictina's message changed the entire purpose of Pliny the Elder's trip. Yeah. Because he was going to see what was happening. Yeah. Now it was a rescue mission. Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

Yes. So he was the commander, as I said, of one of Rome's largest naval fleets.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

People were trapped along the coast and he had ships. Sure did. So instead of taking the small fast vessel he had originally ordered, Pliny changed his plans and commanded the fleet's larger vessels to be launched. Right. So these were substantial warships. Okay. Pliny the Younger later wrote that his uncle now headed towards the danger with the same determination with which he had originally intended to study it, even dictating observations about the eruption as the ships crossed the bay.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Okay. This was a man who spent most of his life having people read books to him while he ate dinner because apparently chewing without simultaneously learning something was an unacceptable waste of time. 100%. Yes. So of course he was taking notes while traveling towards the volcano. But the closer the ships came to Vesuvius, the more obvious it became that this was not an ordinary natural curiosity. Ash began falling onto the ships. Oh boy. Then pieces of pumice started landing around them, followed by darker fragments of rock that had been scorched and fractured by the heat. Right. As they continued towards the coast, the material became thicker and heavier, while the water itself was becoming difficult to navigate.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

Volcanic debris was accumulating on the surface, and changes along the shoreline were creating new obstacles in places that had been open water before.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

I have no doubt.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

So eventually, Pliny's helmsmen suggested that they turn around, which is completely reasonable. They were deliberately sailing into increasingly heavy volcanic fallout while the coastline ahead of them was disappearing behind ash, smoke, and debris. Pliny refused, though. According to his nephew, he responded with a phrase, fortunes favor the brave. Yes. Then he ordered the ships to continue moving towards the coast.

Pumice Rain and Impossible Choices

SPEAKER_04 31:50

While Pliny was making that decision, the people of Pompeii were experiencing the same eruption from a different perspective. The enormous cloud Pliny the Younger had seen across the bay was visible, was the visible top of an eruption column that was carrying volcanic material miles into the atmosphere. Right. Hot gas and magma were being blasted upwards with tremendous force, but as the material rose and spread outward, gravity began bringing heavier pieces back down. Sure did. Pompeii happened to be directly in the path of much of that fallout. Right. At first, pieces of white pumice began dropping into the city. Pumice is a volcanic rock filled with tiny air bubbles.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Created when gas rapidly expands inside magma. That makes it surprisingly light. And some pieces of pumice are porous enough to float on water.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

Yeah, so very, very light. Gotcha. For hours, pumice rained onto Pompeii. It bounced off rooftops, accumulated in courtyards, filled the streets. Residents trying to move through the city increasingly had to push their way through this loose volcanic rock that shifted underneath their feet. I mean, can you imagine just constantly stepping on marbles?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

No.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

And the layer kept getting deeper and deeper. Right. This is one of those archaeological evidence things that allows it to allows us to reconstruct particularly well because the eruption left the sequence sitting directly on top of Pompeii. Right. You can literally see the layers of changes.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, isn't that wild?

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, just to see like the progression of it and how they can determine what happened from it. It's just it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 33:36

I'll I'll put on the video I watched in our show notes, but he like shows you the layers of this happened first for a long period of time because you can tell how wide it is, and then this happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

So the first layer was white pumice. Then what's above that appears to be gray pumice. That color change reflects a change in the magma being expelled from the volcano.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Which tells modern volcanologists that the eruption was beginning to tap different portions of the underground magma system.

unknown 34:09

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

So the people in Pompeii obviously didn't know any of that. Why would they? They just knew the colors changed.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

Yeah. But they still had choices at this time. The city wasn't instantly destroyed when the eruption began, which is one of the biggest misconceptions about Pompeii.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:25

The catastrophic phase mo most people come to know Vesuvius as came later.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

For many hours, the primary danger in Pompeii was just this falling pumice, um, excuse me, pumice and ash. Yeah. So that gave people plenty of time to leave.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

So what we what didn't what we don't know how many did leave, but the population of Pompeii before the eruption was much larger than the number of bodies that we found there.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, there's some people did get out.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Uh because they would they didn't they only found well, I mean, over time though, some of them probably disintegrated and so on underneath the ash and yeah, whatever. I'm not sure, yeah. I'm not sure. I heard a rumor once and I don't I never looked into it and whatever, but I heard like some of that was all staged the bodies they found and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Oh like really conspiracy theory.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah, so I again I never looked into it. I don't remember when I heard that or who said it or anything, but I'm like, well, that's interesting. Why where'd you come up with that? But again, I didn't look into it.

SPEAKER_04 35:33

Yeah, weird. Yeah, yeah. So at the beginning, nobody knew how long the eruption would last. Because why would you? Right. If your home can home contained money, possessions, food, business records, uh, everything that you owned, abandoning it because rocks had started falling from the sky was a much larger decision than it sounds when we already know how the story ends.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Well, exactly. In the in the in the moment it's happening, they don't know what the outcome is gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

No.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

So um, like my shit's here. I can't leave my dog. You know, I mean, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

You fucking pick that dog up and go.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, people are weird.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Well, I've got I'll take three cats, you take three cats and run. So there plenty of people did leave immediately. Yeah. Others may have waited, assuming this strange storm would pass. Storm. Some appeared to have gathered valuables before attempting to flee, others sheltered inside buildings. Yeah. And the longer people waited, the harder leaving became.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

As the pumice pumice accumulated, streets began increasingly difficult to cross. The constant fallout made visibility worse, and earthquakes started shaking buildings that had already been damaged by years of seismic activity before that. Yep. Then the weight started becoming a problem. Pumice is light compared to volcano ordinary rock.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

Um, but several feet of it piled onto a roof is still heavy. So roofs began collapsing.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

That created um a horrible choice for someone who decided to take shelter indoors.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Well, it's like, do I get pummeled by pumice or do I get crushed by roof? Yeah. I mean, I you would think you would go inside because I don't want to get hit in the face by some pumice. But then you go inside, it's like too much pumice. You know? Yes, I know. Roof down.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Bringing down the house. Sorry. The building protected you from the material falling outside, but a very additional incrementally building on top of that roof made it more dangerous. So of course going outside meant exposing yourself to that debris. Right. And trying to move through the streets that were steadily filling with pumice was getting worse. Right, right, right. Meanwhile, across the water, Pliny the Elder was still trying to reach the people trapped along the coast. Yeah. Exactly where where Rectina's Rectina's, there we go, Rectina's villa stood is uncertain. And despite Pliny's efforts, he was not able to reach her directly. Sure. Conditions along the shoreline forced him to change course, and he eventually headed farther south, where another friend, uh, a man named Pomp Pompani Pompanianus.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Pompanianus. What's up, P.

SPEAKER_04 38:32

Was waiting.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

Pomponyanus had already recognized that something was seriously wrong. He had gathered his belongings and loaded them onto ships, intending to escape as soon as the winds allowed it. Oh, the winds were not in his favor.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Well, no, I can't imagine with the what's going on. Everything's all sorts of jacked up, I would assume. So I don't know how it affects everything, but I can't imagine it was favorable.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

So the wind was helping Pliny move. Sure. But once reading Pompanius, you we can't just reverse the wind and go back, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

They don't have one of those reverse motors.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

No, they don't have a reverse motor.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

My slipper fell off.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Oh no. I wearing slippers. Should they should have got some oarsmen and yeah. Anyways.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

So Pliny arrived, found his friend frightened and trapped, and apparently decided that the best thing he could do was behave as though everything was fine. Mm-hmm. He embraced Pompanius, reassured him, it's alright, everything's fine. We got this. I'm gonna go take a bath.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

And he actually did?

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Yeah, he went and took a bath.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

I gotta wash his ass off me.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Yeah, yeah. He's like, um, this is horrible, but it's fine. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine. No need to worry. I'm gonna go take a bath, and then he ate dinner.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Did someone read to him while he's taking a bathroom? Probably.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Pliny the younger later suggested that his uncle deliberately acted relaxed because he wanted to calm everyone around him.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Which I understand, but uh, how did how did the younger get all this information? So some people must have survived, just not not uncle? Yep.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Okay, yep, uncle elder. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

All right.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Whether Pliny the Elder was entirely unconcerned, we don't know, or simply just putting on a performance. The results must have looked bizarre.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

Outside Vesuvius was throwing up, you know, enormous quantities of ash and pumice, and people were trying to escape along the pote, the the coast. Pompeii was slowly disappearing, and the commander of the Roman fleet's like, I'm gonna go take a bath.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

That's so funny. What a uh choice.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

Pliny the elder eventually went to bed.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Well, you gotta sleep at some point. I mean, sleep waits for no one. You know that better than most.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

According to his nephew, there was no question that he actually fell asleep because the people outside of his room could hear him snoring. While Pliny slept, however, the situation obviously kept getting worse. The countryside outside his room was gradually filling with ash and pumice, and the accumulation was becoming deep enough um that the people with him began worrying that uh we should probably wake him up.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:20

So they did.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Hey uh sir.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

I know you're snoring logs, but uh saw and logs.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

That's that's that's the term saw and logs.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Snoring logs by this point remaining inside the house was becoming increasingly dangerous. Right. Repeated earthquakes as well. Plenty and the elders had others had decided whether they were safe beneath a roof that might collapse or outside. They chose to go outside. Sure. To protect themselves, they tied pillows over their heads with like strips of cloth. That's crazy. They were improvising with whatever they could find, and a pillow strapped to your head was probably better than taking a pumice directly to the school.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Yeah, but I can't imagine, like, it's not like they had a temperatic pillow, and like you know, it's just gonna be like even of the pillow. I don't know. I just I don't know the quality of their pillows right now. I don't know. That is something I would love to know.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

So I'll have to look into that for you.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

No, you won't.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

No, because I'll forget.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

You'll forget. That's what I was gonna

Pyroclastic Currents Change Everything

SPEAKER_01 42:27

say.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Then as morning approached, something within Vesuvia started changing. For hours, the volcano had maintained an enormous column of hot gas, ash, and rock rising into the atmosphere. Yeah, but an eruption column like that can only remain standing while the force driving material upward is strong enough to support it, right? Yep, yep, yep. When portions of that column became begin became too dense and heavy to remain suspended, they began collapsing.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Instead of continuing upward and eventually falling, falling from the sky as pumice and ash, enormous quantities of superheated gas and volcanic material began rushing outward towards the ground. These are known as pyroclastic density currents.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

I've heard of pyroclastic.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Yeah, we when we talked about um Give me a starts with a K, the loudest sound ever recorded. Oh, the kaboon.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Uh um Krakatoa. Krakatoa, there it is. Jesus Christ. Krakatoa. That's where we that's where I know him from.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

Yeah, pyroclastic density currents.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

And in this video that I watch, again, you can see that whole line. This is a pyroclastic density current.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

That's wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

White ash or white pumice, gray pumice, pyroclastic currents.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

That's crazy. I know.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

So cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

This was an entirely different phase of the eruption. Sure. A pyroclastic density current is one of the most dangerous things a volcano can produce, and it is very different from the slow moving. Rivers of lava that we usually picture with volcanic eruptions. Of course. These currents are turbulent mixtures of extremely hot gas, ash, and fragments of volcanic rock that move outward from a volcano along the ground. Because the mixture is denser than the surrounding atmosphere, gravity pulls it downhill and across the landscape, allowing it to travel incredibly quickly.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

So is this what more or less this portion of it more or less would have created those the people where they're like sheltered in place and there's body calfs and all that? Would that have come from this layer?

SPEAKER_04 44:41

I don't remember. So there have there were several different hyroclastic events. Okay. So I if from the video, if I recall, there was at least three events before you started finding the body casts.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Gotcha. Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

Yes, and it it's it's just all in this line of rock. It's crazy. It's fucking weird. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Huh.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

All right. Yeah, I'll have to forward that video on to you.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yeah, please do. I'd like to watch it.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah. So depending on the eruption and the individual current, temperatures can reach several hundred degrees Celsius while speeds can exceed highway speeds, and in some cases faster. Wow. You can't run one.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

On the Autobahn, you can. Potentially. I've I've been on it.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

But we ain't in in Germany, so.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

No, we ain't.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

No, we ain't. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Shout out to Germany.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Hiding inside a building offers limited protection when hot gas and fine ash can enter through the buildings.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

While the force of current damages the structure themselves. Sure. During the eruption of 79 AD, Vesuvius didn't produce just one. As I said, the eruption column repeatedly became unstable, sending a series of these density currents down the mountain. Right. Modern researchers can identify many of these individuals because it has left its own deposits. Those deposits are essentially a record of what Vesuvius left behind. Sure. By studying their thickness, composition, and distribution, volcanologists can reconstruct which currents traveled in which directions, how far they reached, and roughly where they fit into the sequence of the eruption. That's wild. They can figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

I love that shift. Yeah, it's cool. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

So one of the first major Roman communities in their path before Pompeii was Herculaneum.

Herculaneum’s Shoreline Tragedy

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Herculaneum. Herculaneum sat west of Vesuvius. Yeah. Closer to the mountain than Pompeii. But during the earlier portion of the eruption, it had actually avoided much of the heavy pumice falling that was burying Pompeii. Right. Because the winds were just helping out. Yeah. The wind carried the majority of that material towards the southeast. And that might actually have made Herculaneum seem like a better place to be, but it wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

When the eruption column began collapsing, Herculaneum's location became catastrophic. The first pyroclastic currents rushed down towards the town and reached the coastline, covering Herculaneum beneath hot volcanic material. Right. For a long time, archaeologists believed that, excuse me, most of Herculaneum's population had managed to escape before relatively few bodies were found when the town was first excavated. Sure. Then beginning in the 1980s, excavation near the ancient shoreline revealed something a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah. Inside structures along the waterfront. Archaeologists discovers the remains of hundreds of people.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

And this is in that Tom Hiddleston show, they were talking about this where they like it looked like they were they were trying to get out, but then they ended up on the shore and whatever. And that again, I didn't watch the whole thing, but this is a little part I did see. And because they had some people that were trying to get to the boats and get the hell out, but couldn't. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Um send me the name. Well, I can try to find the Tom Hiddleston one, but I'll try to um put that in our show notes too.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah, no, it it I mean, A, love Tom Hiddleston, he's great. And B I love I've always loved Pompeii because of what happened to it and so on, but um we can put in it's yeah, National Geographic. But I'll we'll uh we'll put it in the show notes too in case people haven't come across it. That's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Okay, so many had apparently made their way towards the sea, hoping that boats would carry them away, their families there, people with jewelry and personal belongings, money. Um many were waiting for rescue, and then the pyroclastic currents reached them.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

Exactly how many people died has been of debate, um, particularly over the temperatures involved and whether death was caused primarily by extreme heat, asphyxiation, or a combination of effects.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

I mean, if you die, you die. Does it have to be so specific? Why are the numbers it's it's more it's just more data? Okay, I get that, but why are like they debating the number of deaths when well they died like this, but they died like this. Well, they all died.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Yeah, I know, but I mean, why does butt baseball have so many FN statistics when this team won and this one didn't?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Because that's why. Yeah, because nerds, am I right?

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Archaeologists are fucking nerds.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

I mean, they're they're yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

They're rock nerds.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Well, those are geologists. Fair.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Okay, moving on. The town was overwhelmed rapidly and buried beneath volcanic dispos deposits, but several miles away, Pompeii was still there.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

That is one of the strangest things about recreating this, or excuse me, reconstructing this disaster. Where her while Herculaneum had already been struck by these pyroclastic, I also love saying that word, pyroclastic currents. People remaining in Pompeii were still dealing primarily with the pumice that was falling from the sky.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:23

They had no way to be notified that their neighboring town was had just been overwhelmed. Yeah. So from inside Pompeii, their understanding of the eruption was limited to what they could see, hear, and feel around them. The sky was darkening, the ground was shaking, buildings were falling, and pumice was filling the streets. But if you had survived this long, you might also start believing that you could survive whatever was happening. The eruption had already gone on for hours. Maybe the worst was over. Maybe it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

It wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

By this point, some areas of Pompeii had accumulated several feet of pumice. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Jesus. I couldn't even fucking imagine.

SPEAKER_04 51:04

Walk, I just heard a knock at my door, but it was a cat. It startled me. I was like, there's somebody here.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Hello.

SPEAKER_04 51:12

Walking through it would have been exhausting, particularly while carrying belongings or helping children, elderly relatives, or anyone who couldn't move easily on their own. Yeah. Every additional hour made escape more difficult. Archaeology gives us little snapshots of some of the decisions that people made. Victims had been discovering, excuse me, had been discovered carrying coins and jewelry, suggesting that at least some people grabbed portable wealth before attempting to escape. Sure. Others were found inside buildings where they may have decided that sheltering was safer than venturing out. There were also people who appeared to have died during structural collapses. Right. And recent research research had added another complication to the story.

Pompeii Shakes as Buildings Fail

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

The earthquakes had not stopped.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

No, those were constant, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:01

For for years, deaths at Pompeii were you usually explained almost entirely through volcanic processes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

It's understandable why they went that way, I guess. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

So but researchers examining skeletons discovered um consistent evidence with people being killed when walls collapsed during strong earthquake shaking that occurred at the same time as the eruption. Yeah. So the ground beneath Pompeii was still moving violently enough to bring buildings down around the people trying to survive with them inside.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

Okay. So outside volcanic material, inside, collapse.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah, not really good. Either way. I mean, you're pretty pretty screwed.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Sometime in the early morning, because now we're like into the next day.

The Surge Reaches Pompeii

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

The situation changed again. Oh, yeah. A pyroclastic current moved towards Pompeii. The earliest currents had not traveled far enough to overwhelm the city, but each collapse of the eruption column didn't produce an identical event each time.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

Some currents were relatively limited, while later ones traveled farther across the surrounding landscape. And eventually this one reached Pompeii. Right. By the time it entered the city, it was no longer necessarily the same concentrated, violent, destructive flow that had struck closer to Vesuvius.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 53:28

The outer, more diluted portion of the current, a fast-moving surge of hot gas and ash, swept through the streets and the buildings. For anyone still there, the window of escape was closing. Victims who had survived the pumice fall, the earthquakes, and the collapsed buildings were now exposed to these pyroclastic events. Fine volcanic ash could penetrate these buildings. Hot gases surrounded people. I was gonna say, yeah. Visibility disappeared, breathing became increasingly difficult, and the currents kept coming.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Right.

How the Plaster Casts Happen

SPEAKER_04 54:03

This is also why the plaster casts associated with Pompeii exist. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

After victims died, additional ash and volcanic material accumulated around their bodies.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Right, yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_04 54:19

Over time, the soft tissue decomposed.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Yeah, or the stuff hardened outside, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:24

Yeah, but their tissues decomposed, leaving human-shaped cavities inside these hardened deposits.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

During excavations in the 19th century, archaeologist Giuseppe Fiorelli realized that some of these strange hollow spaces were once the bodies. Instead of simply digging through them, workers poured plaster into these cavities. Once the plaster hardened, then the surrounding volcanic material was removed. Sure. The shape left behind revealed the per the position of the person at the time the surrounding deposit had formed around them.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Right. Isn't that wild? So would the skeletons have been gone by then too?

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Because of that's kind of what they're implying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they the casts were empty spaces.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Right. And I would imagine, you know, even what'd you say they did this in the 19th century? So 1800s. Um, I mean, that's still that's 1800 fucking years for it to go away. Yeah. So I could see that being the case. Yeah. So that's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

So because these spaces preserve details of like their clothing and their footwear, facial features and body positions then created something a little bit more powerful than just finding than like bones, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 55:50

They turned an ancient death toll back into individual people. Yeah. A person curled onto their side, someone covering their face, people found close together, a child and a mother. Yep. Um, someone who had made it almost to the edge of the city before the eruption caught up with them. But even here, it's crazy. It's it's tempting to look at two bodies beside one another and create a story about who they were, what relationship they had, and what they were doing in their final moments. Sometimes archaeological evidence can't tell us, can't can tell us quite a bit, and sometimes it can't. Of course. Modern DNA analysis had already overturned some long-standing assumptions about the identities and relationships of several famous Pompeii victims. The cast helped preserve those moments. Sure. Meanwhile, the eruption wasn't can um confined to Pompeii and Herculaneum. Across the bay at Pisnea Pis Pisnium Pis Pisinum. Museum. No.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Museum. Pizza Museum.

Pliny the Younger Runs Through Darkness

SPEAKER_04 56:58

Pliny the Younger and his mother had also survived the night.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:02

But the earthquakes were also reaching over there and they were getting worse. I'm sure, yeah. Pliny later remembered that the shaking became so violent that objects moved back and forth while buildings seemed to sway as well. At some point during the night, he had actually continued studying because why not? I got a test. He tells us that he asked for a volume of the historian Livy and sat reading and taking notes despite the earthquakes. Pliny the Younger had now turned on a trip towards erupting volcano because he had homework and now he was continuing homework during this volcanic eruption. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

I mean.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

But finally, Pliny was like, Alright, homework and wait. We should go. As morning arrived, he and his mother decided to leave the buildings and move into an open area where they would be safer if the structures collapse and others were doing the same thing. Sure. So then what happened later? Pliny recorded it and said the sea appeared to retreat from the shoreline.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

He could see marine animals stranded on the exposed ground. Out across the bay, a dark cloud was spreading towards them. Pliny compared it to an enormous black mass rolling across the landscape, illuminated from inside by flashes of light. Lightning. Pliny and his mother joined the crowd, and as they fled, his mother turned to him and told him to leave without her.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Oh I.

SPEAKER_04 58:47

I don't know if I know. But he refused.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good boy.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

She was older.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Well, yeah, but you know.

SPEAKER_04 58:54

And according to Pliny the Younger, she was on the heavier side, but and so she was probably just afraid of slowing him down.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

He called his mom fat.

SPEAKER_04 59:03

Heavy.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

That's rude, Pliny.

SPEAKER_04 59:06

She told her son that he was young enough to escape on his own and that he shouldn't lose his life because he refused to abandon her, but Pliny wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Sorry, Ma.

SPEAKER_04 59:15

He told her that he if they were going to survive, they were going to survive together. And the two of them continued moving away from their town that I can't pronounce with the crowd. By this point, the roads were packed with frightened people trying to decide where they were supposed to go.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

There was no organized evacuation and no authority directing them to safety.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Of course not.

SPEAKER_04 59:37

People simply knew that remaining near buildings seemed increasingly dangerous. Right. Pliny described carts that had been brought out into the open, rocking violently from side to side, even after stones had been placed around their wheels to keep them from moving. Jesus. Pliny described the mac black mass spreading across the ground and sea, dark and dense, while flashes of fire appeared inside it. Okay. Some of those flashes may have been the volcanic lightning produced when ash particles colliding inside the eruption cloud generated electrical charges, which is also just so cool to say out loud.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

No kidding, that's pretty awesome, actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:15

Yes. So the crowd watching all this began to panic. Pliny and his mother moved away from the main road so they wouldn't be knocked down by trampled and be trampled by other people.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:27

They hadn't gone far when the cloud began overtaking everything behind them. Pliny looked back. The darkness was spreading across the landscape. He compared it to a flood pouring over the ground. His mother again begged him to save himself, and again he refused to leave her. Of course. The cloud did reach them. Pliny described what it felt like to be inside it. The daylight disappeared. Pliny compared it to being inside a completely enclosed room after the lamps had been extinguished.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

For some reason, it just keeps reminding me of part of a Metallica song, where it's darkness and presenting me.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

Maybe it was about Pompeii.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

It wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

Trying to identify loved ones by their voices. Plainly heard people pray to the gods. Others apparently became convinced that gods no the gods no longer existed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Some why would they do this?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:29

Exactly. Fucking Zeus is mad.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Maybe Hades is like, fuck y'all.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

Fuck y'all. Some believe, well, wait a minute. That was Greek.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

Who's the Roman goddess?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

I'm not sure. I don't remember all the Roman. I remember more Greek gods than I do Roman gods.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:47

So if Sam was here, she might be able to tell us. Yeah, she's she's more interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, I mean I love like the Roman mythology too, but I always was more into Greek mythology, so let us know, people's okay because didn't a lot of them like last thing I'll say on it, like they were it was like the same thing, but it's just different name more or less. I I I don't recall, but we'll have to maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:11

Because what is Zeus considered?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Almighty Zeus? I don't know. God of Thunder? No way it's not a good thing. That's Thor. That's Norse. Yeah, I know. I did that on purpose, but I I don't remember exactly what it is. Was it Zeus King of the Gods? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:28

I need to watch Hercules again. Hercules, Hercules.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Alright, let's move on.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Okay. For Pliny, who had spent his life surrounded by educated Romans attempting to explain the natural world through observation and philosophy, the scene I'm sure was extraordinary for him. Right. Thousands of people were suddenly reduced to voices in the darkness, trying to understand something that has never happened to them before. Ash began falling heavily around them. Pliny and his mother repeatedly stood up and shook it from their clothing because he feared that if they remained still, enough could accumulate and cover them. Eventually the darkness began to thin. A strange light appeared, although Lin Pliny said it didn't resemble normal daylight. The sun did return, it was pale, it was weak looking, uh almost as if there was an eclipse. Yeah. Um, when they could finally see their surroundings again, everything looked like ash covered. Like snow. He said it looked like snow. Yeah. Yeah. Pliny and his mother returned um to their house that I cannot pronounce, but the earthquakes continued, and neither of them knew what had happened to Pliny the Elder.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

They waited and waited, and no message came.

Pliny the Elder’s Final Moments

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

Across the bay, Pliny the Elder had spent the night um with his friend Pompanius, while conditions around him stead steadily steadily steadily deteriorated.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

Steadily?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Steadily.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:03

What I say.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

Steadily.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

After he and the others left left the house with pillows um tied over their heads. This is a funny image.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

They made their way towards the shoreline to see whether escape by sea had become possible, but it hadn't. The water remained too rough and the wind wind was still unfavorable. Pliny sat down on a cloth that had been spread on the ground and asked repeatedly for cold water to drink. Then flames and the smell of sulfur caused the people around him to panic.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

Pliny attempted to stand with the help of two other men. He collapsed and he didn't get back up.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

Pliny the Elder is Pliny no more.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Pliny the Elder is Pliny the Dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Yeah, no more. Yeah. I just said it nicer.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

He he died just right there. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:59

He asked for cold, kept asking for cold water, sat down, and when he stood up, Yeah, this is it, boys. Isn't that weird? No idea what happened to him.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

I wonder if a combination of age and you know, obviously the stuff he's inhaling and stuff just looked, yeah, nope, nope, they can't do it no more.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Could be.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

I have no idea. I'm not a doctor, but uh or a doc. Fucking dumbest name for a TV show.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

For the longest time, the traditional explanation was that Pliny the Elder had been overcome by the poisonous volcanic gases. Yeah. Modern researchers aren't nearly as confident about that explanation. He may have suffered a heart attack, heart attack, or other sudden medical events. Yeah. Volcanic gases could have contributed. Sure. His underlying health may have played a role. 100%. Some researchers have even questioned parts of the traditional reconstruction of his death. We just we just don't know. Yeah. What we do know is that when Daylight returned, his His body was found. Pliny the younger wrote that his uncle appeared more like someone who was sleeping than someone who had died violently. And as I said, Pliny the Elder was about 55, potentially 56.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

Yeah, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:12

We don't know how many people his ships managed to rescue during the operation. We don't know whether Rectina, Rectina, why do I keep saying it like that? Rectina.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

I think you're like thinking of a retina.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

Something. I don't know. Rectum. I don't know. Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

Rectina damn near killed him.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:31

Whose message caused him to change his plans in the first place survived. We don't know if she simply disappears from historical record.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

Which there's a good point as to why, because she was no longer, or just went on with her everyday life and whatever. So, yeah, of course. Why there's been millions upon millions upon billions of people in this world throughout time. You don't know all of them, and you won't.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

So back at Mizinum, Pliny the Younger and his mother were still waiting for news. They remained there despite the continuing um earthquakes, because Pliny later said that they couldn't bring themselves to leave until they knew what happened to Pliny the Elder. Eventually the answer did reach them.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

But the 17-year-old who had stayed behind to finish his schoolwork had survived, and so had his mother. And years later, that decision would leave us with this archaeological evidence of Pompeii, his letters.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

That's wild.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:35

Those words eventually became important an important part of Roman history. Yeah. Pliny the Younger didn't sit down immediately after the disaster and write it, but it was years later when Tacitus uh contacted

Letters Meet Geology and Plinian Eruptions

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

him. Right. Centuries passed, the Roman Empire in the West disappeared, Pompeii remained buried, the location of itself eventually faded from common knowledge. But Pliny's letter survived enough, excuse me, survived through copies made and preserved over generations. Then Pompeii began emerging from the ground again. And suddenly there were two records of the same disaster. One that was written by a 17-year-old, and the other was written into the earth by the eruption itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Yeah. Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:26

Modern volcanologists could examine the thickness and distribution of pumice around Vesuvius, identify changes from white pumice to gray, study the deposits left by the pyroclastic currents, and compare that physical evidence with the sequence that Pliny described. Right. His account wasn't perfect and it wasn't written as a scientific report.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

No, it's just an observation.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:50

Pliny was describing events from memories that had happened years earlier, and some of that happened around the volcano that had been reported by other survivors as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:00

But the broad sequence he recorded matched remarkably well with evidence still sitting in the ground 2,000 years later.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

Scientists eventually gave a name of enormous explosion. Excuse me. Scientists eventually gave the type of enormous explosive eruption he witnessed a name. A sustained eruption that blasts ash, gas, and pumice high into the atmosphere beneath a towering eruption column is now known as Plinian Eruption.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:37

That is the story of Pompey.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

That's a song too. I got it in my brain now. Yeah, that's shit's wild. Could you imagine? I mean, good for him to be able to just watch it from afar and only have to deal with like the the moving cloud, but could you imagine like what the fuck is that? Yeah. I think I'd say that today and I'd probably know what it is. I know, isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:04

Like, we know so much. Like, I can't imagine just not knowing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:08

It's just like what is that smoke? What is that cloud?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

Why does it look like there's a tree?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:13

Yeah. It's so wild. Why is there flashes of light inside?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

I know. Yeah, so like to know nothing, but even with us how much we know today, I'd be like, oh my, what the hell?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:24

The last time that that volcano erupted was in 1944.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

I was gonna ask, yeah. It's probably like Nazis, am I right? Well, I suppose.

Where to Find Us Next

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

All right, buffoons, that's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at historybuffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:05

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SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:13

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