Vat? Nein!: 22 Cells at Nuremburg, Part One

Brewers Win And We Catch Up

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Oh hey there.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Oh hey there.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

How's it going, Kate?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Good. I am Kate. That's Bradley.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

We're the history buffoons. Yes, we are. Spent a minute.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

I got a little burnt out.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

It happens. You're busy and baseball, am I right? Oh my god. We won. The Brewers are World Series champions. How fucking amazing is this.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

I know.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I've been waiting my entire life for this.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

You've been waiting for years for this.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

But I'm glad I'm glad you took on uh liking the brewers as much as you do in a short amount of time.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

So you'd be surprised how many people like I come across. Um, I don't know if my microphones did though, sorry. Um, that I come across on my massage table who have never watched the brewers but started at the postseason.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

And then of course they're brewing are brewing for the brewers, they're cheering for the brewers. I like brewing for the brewers.

Podcast Beers And Wisconsin Favorites

SPEAKER_00 1:07

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Speaking of which, as I just lifted mine, I I am currently drinking, I usually have a podcast setup beer, which happens also to be the beer that I'm having on the podcast today, which is Wisconsin only, just like our brewers. Nuclearis. Now, I am a very hard critic of spotted cow because it's an overrated beer. I'm not saying it's a bad beer, it's overrated. But their moon man is fucking delicious. It's a paleo.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

So I loved Spotted Cow when I first moved here. Yeah. And then I started having Fat Squirrel, which was even better.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Um, and then I just kind of gotten away from it. And I had Spotted Cow a couple months back, and I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Maybe not. Yeah. Why not?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

I've got my trustee Modello. So cheers. Cheers. Go Brewers.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Go Brewers, World Series Champs. Fuck yeah. Fuck Chicago. Cubs.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

No, we were super excited to see him win. It just uh sucks. We couldn't win at home, but I was just glad they won it. I did not care. Nope. I was very happy that so many people went down there to support him in Tampa. My uh buddy Al's mom was there. She lives in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Oh, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Uh at the game they won. So awesome. Yeah. So um her and her husband Rick were there. So shout out to Rick Rick and Renee. I'm also in fantasy football with them. Don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I just because I keep doing not being in fantasy football with them, but just being in fantasy football.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Because I every year I'm like, I should stop doing this. And meh, here's your 50 bucks. I'm in it. Watch my team lose. Yeah. Although I have won a couple championships out of that, but I don't care because the brewers won one that's real. So it's like so and of course we have t-shirts coming for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, so we had to purchase those ASAP.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Well, I mean, not today. Not today.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

I got a Contreras one, MVP. I uh I just found out what MVP stands for.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Are you are you actually kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah. I was like, VIP.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Most valuable player? I didn't know. You did not know that's what wow. Nope. My world was just turned upside down by how simple. You said it. I was literally thinking that word, but you said it. I kid, I kid. Cough button. Yeah, we're working on those.

unknown 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

We don't want to gross someone out.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I, for whatever reason, have been coughing a lot more after laughing or like cough laughing.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And it's really irritating.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

I have no doubt. Yeah. That's I didn't used to do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

And now it's just you can't even tell what's a laugh and what's a cough anymore because they're synonymous.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

One and the same. Yeah.

The Movie Nuremberg Sparks The Topic

SPEAKER_01 4:05

So well, with that being said, let's laugh about what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

And laugh we shall probably not.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Is it depressing?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I think you'll like it.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Okay. Well, I mean, I like the other stories that are depressing. There's some piss me off because it's like no, you'll you'll like this one. Oh, I'm sure I will.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah. Um, you are familiar with it.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Um, so we recently watched the movie Um Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, I was very, very impressed with that movie.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

I was too.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I I mean, I love Russell Crowe ever since.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

And he played German really well.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

He did great.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

I mean, he made you want to like frickin' uh fucking tyrant. Just lost his name.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Herman. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I'm like, all of a sudden I was gonna say Herman Goering, and then like Himmler went into my head. I'm like, that's not right. But he made you want to like him. Like it was so weird. And then uh Rami Malik, I liked him.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

He was phenomenal in it.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, I did I did like him. Tragic story about the person he portrayed. It's really sad. Um, but uh no, that movie was I really enjoyed it, yeah. It was really good.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I knew nothing about the trials, I didn't know much about the trials either. Yeah, and so I read um Dr. Douglas Kelly's book.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

And that's who Rami Malik uh portrayed.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yes. So his book is called 22 Cells in Nuremberg. Yeah. And you can actually find it for free online. Oh, really? Yeah, it's pretty, pretty awesome. Um, I got it from excuse me, internet. Oh, excuse me, archive.gov. Oh, okay. Just kidding. Archive.org.gov.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

We sometimes don't speak properly.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

I had a little slysdexia when I read.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Thank you for using it properly. Because all the dyslexic who will get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I read his book, and so what we're gonna talk about today is his notes and what he wrote. Oh, cool. Yeah, because it's not gonna be about Dr. Kelly, not so much, not so much, but just what he observed. Yeah, and we're gonna go through all 22 uh prisoners. Prisoners. Oh shit, wow. So there's bits and you know, yeah, little snippets and stuff like that. So um, Dr. Douglas Kelly um spent five months. It was that long. I see, and I didn't even think that it was that long. I thought five months was short, but maybe I don't know, five months in 1945.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

So I guess, and of course, obviously a movie's only what that was like two hours long, give or take, whatever it was. Um so obviously they have to shorten shit, they're not gonna literally have five months worth of him interviewing and so on. And they've it seemed like they focused more on him uh just interviewing Guring. Right. He did they did show him talking to a couple others, yeah, but his focus was on the movie's focus was on his uh interactions with Guring more than anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Um But I mean, five months to me, that seems like a long time because I guess five months would be a long time to quote unquote connect with someone while you were interviewing.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So reading his book, did you come across, and again, we're obviously comparing it to the movie we watched. I know it's a movie, I understand the differences, uh, whatever. But like they kind of portrayed it as he almost had like a relationship with Guring. Did that come across in the book at all? Or was that more fabricated for the movie?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

No, it it actually was. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah. Um, when um Dr. Kelly left the jail, like for good, yeah. Um, supposedly. Supposedly, um, Guring cried. Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

That's wild. Yeah. I mean, when you're in that situation, even though you're a high-ranking, I mean, literally second in command Nazi, um, creating that friendship or whatever you want to call it, I'm sure they kind of probably saw it as a friendship during that time.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Potentially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

But um, yeah, you're gonna get it maybe a little attached. I get it. You what else does he have to do besides sit in his cell? Right kind of thing. So makes sense.

Dr Douglas Kelley And The Mission

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So during um those five months, he started 22 high-ranking Nazi prisoners who were being held um awaiting trial uh following Germany's defeat in World War II. So before the trials began, they needed to determine whether their prisoners were mentally competent to stand trial and whether they posed a um a self-exit risk.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, because we can't say the real word.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

So that's where Dr. Douglas Kelly came in. He was a 32-year-old American army psychiatrist who had been serving in Europe, and his military superior selected him to evaluate the the Nazi leaders.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

I couldn't imagine being 32 and having to like come face to face with like some very high-ranking evil fucking people. Yeah. I mean, that's wild.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Manipulative, evil.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Well, and that's what you know they kind of show Goering doing is just manipulating people around him. But he was very fucking good at it, apparently.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

So his psychiatric um assessment or excuse assignment um quickly became much more fascinating to him rather than just a professional view. Sure. Um, he had these this opportunity to understand the minds of the men who helped Hitler build and run Nazi Germany.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

What kind of personalities did they have? How how had the hit gained so much influence? And what had allowed them to participate in a regimen, regime?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yep. Regime.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Uh-huh. Regime. Um that was responsible for for millions of deaths. I can read. I just there's sometimes a wire that's kind of cut and it's like trying to it's like soldered incorrectly in my brain.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

The way I see the wire in your brain is one that like has a spark that like sometimes it gets close enough. Oh, there it is, you know.

unknown 10:35

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Uh so it's like the neurons firing when they get close up.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

You know, there's the answer right there.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I mean, probably not far off.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

It's warm in here. It is warm in here.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

We open the window, so if there's some uh sounds, I apologize. I will as always try and eliminate as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, it's such a nice day out. There's kids outside playing basketball and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

So football, yeah. It's such a lovely fall day, actually. It's a beautiful out.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

But uh, Dr. Kelly believed that understanding these men might help him to recognize the warning signs and prevent something similar from happening again. Okay. Okay. So Kelly personally interviewed all 22 prisoners, spending hours with each men. Um, he also conducted psychological assessments, including the Rorschach ink block test, um, which is the um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Do you see a butterfly?

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, so it's ink in between two pages, you open up the page, and what do you see?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

And then there's also the thematic apperception test, which involved creating stories based on pictures, and then he had a number of other tests, many of which I could not find a definitive short answer of what they were.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

So yeah, it was yeah. He did he did a multitude of tests.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

He did. Um, he also worked beside American Army psychologist, Dr. Gustav uh Gilbert.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Gustav, is he German?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

He was American. Well, I mean, I didn't look into his background if he was born in Germany or wherever.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Um, but he also interviewed and tested these prisoners as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Separately from Dr. Kelly?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Um, sometimes separate, sometimes together.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Okay, gotcha. So it's a collaborative effort at times. Gotcha. But they also probably wanted a second opinion too.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Certain things I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

And they did a really good job of not relying on like a single interpreter. Okay. The movie portrays that there's one interpreter.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

But they actually had quite a few, and they would swap them out for a single interview to make sure all the answers were correct and consistent, and so there wasn't like missing information.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I did, I mean, again, I know it's Hollywood, I whatever, but I did kind of like the interpreter, like the storyline for him where he, you know, his family uh escaped Germany and all that stuff. So it was kind of uh a neat storyline. Again, I I know it's Hollywood, so it's probably fabricated, but yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I I would highly recommend watching Nuremberg if you haven't seen it, it's really great.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

I remember when it came out, I told you about it, and I bought this a long time ago. And so we finally got around to watching it. Sorry, brewers run.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Uh yeah, but uh it's brewer season, and now it's no longer a brewer season, so we can catch up on our movies and movie season now.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Yeah, yeah. But I bought it a long time ago. I'm like, I think we'll really like this because of our our love of A history and B, World War II, especially for you. So I bought it and then it sat and sat. And then finally, because there were some off days between the World Series, uh, we were able to uh meet up and watch it, and it was really fucking good. I just really I I really was surprised at how much I liked it. Yeah, not thinking, not going in with a bad attitude, like oh, this is gonna suck.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

I just I liked it way more than I thought I would hear any praise or were really anything on the movie. I heard nothing. So I walked in it basically with a fresh slate, um, not one way or the other. So I was really pleasantly surprised by it.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

I told you about that guy uh I work with Keith. Um his dad, again, I think I think it was his dad was in World War II. He's an old Keith is older, so obviously dad's a little bit older. I don't his dad's not around anymore. But um he and I were talking about it too. I told him about it. He bought it, he watched it way long time ago. Did you watch it? Did you watch it? Not yet. So after we finally watched it, I saw him at work and I'm like, guess what I finally did? And he's like, What? I finally watched something. He's like, You watched Nuremberg finally? I'm like, Yep, it was great. It was, yeah. So anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah. So considering these men were awaiting trial for war crimes, Kelly knew he couldn't necessarily take everything at at face value. Of course. So he compared like the doctor's um statements and the um the prisoner statement, excuse me. I meant the prisoner statements. He compared the prisoner statements with historical documents and outside interviews and his own observations. Gotcha. So he really tried to, you know, cross his I's and dot his T's. I did that on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

No, you were gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

I did that on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Let's go with that. Shush.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

My synapses were firing. Okay. Many of the prisoners were depressed, obviously, and discouraged following Germany's defeat. Their government had collapsed, their careers were over, and they were facing the possibility of execution.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

I don't know if it was really a possibility. I think they were just facing execution.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Because I understand it was a trial, and that's the way it's supposed to work, honestly. You know, innocent until proven guilty, but we just you just slide.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

We just need to know how bad it how badly in it you were.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Well, which that's that's fair, but it's like you all were whether you were just complacent and let it happen, or a very active member in it, like Guring, you this shit should never fucking happen.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

And you guys were all part of it in one way or the other. Especially the like random soldier, okay. He was taking orders. I can give him some sympathy for that because he was just doing what he was told. He's in the army, blah blah blah. But the all these guys, these weren't just your basic run-of-the-mill private soldier in in the army, the Nazi army, doing what they're told. These were fucking people giving the goddamn orders. Or yeah, yeah, they're they were facing execution.

Jail Conditions And Suicide Fears

SPEAKER_00 16:57

So Kelly included a letter in his book from eight from one prisoner to his wife. We do not know who the prisoner was.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Oh, so he's a bit anonymous. It's anonymous. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

But the quote says, I doubt whether anyone can understand our state of mind without having experienced all this. The worries about the closest members of the family, the sons missing in action, the destroyed property, and all the personal gain about the whole country, about other relatives, the painful thoughts about the future without any regard to your own fate. All this is so unique that it can only be compared with the 30 years' war of destruction. The great difference is that the catastrophe came within two years and to an extent never witnessed before. We intended to build a more beautiful Germany. Instead, we now have a heap of rubbish, unimaginable and not to be eliminated in decades. End quote.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

So that kind of thinking was exactly what Kelly wanted to investigate.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Well, exactly, because he wanted to see why were these people evil and can we find a reason for it, kind of thing, so we can avoid it, yeah. In the future, and it shows you exactly whoever that might have been, one of the 22 people, how just ingrained they were like, No, this is the way it should be, and fuck Germany lost, is basically all he's saying. Yeah, and that's fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, so yeah. So the prisoners were held in a three-story building with cells measuring approximately nine by 13 feet. Each contained a steel cot, toilet, and small table, and security was extremely strict because officials were worried about self-exit.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

So was the thing in the movie where they had the chair, but they removed the chair every night. Was did you come across that in the book at all, or no? I found that really interesting just because they gave them a chair to sit at their table, yeah, but yet they removed it every night.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I I think they did.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I think they did.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I mean, they went to they tried to go to every measure to prevent I don't remember if I actually read that in the book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

No, my my memory isn't what it has ever been.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

But thank you for saying it properly because I'm like, it's not what it used to be, it's not accurate.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

So guards guards watched the prisoners through openings in their doors. Lights remained on throughout the night. Oh my god. And the men were required to keep their heads and hands visible even when sleeping. So you can't like snuggle in.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah, you can't like tuck your hands in. You literally have to like sleep like this, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, or like with your hands on your stomach or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Like you're in a coffin.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Right. So they received about 15 minutes of exercise daily. They weren't allowed to communicate with each other, and their cells were searched regularly. Oh, I bet. Despite these precautions, two prisoners did eventually self-exit. Yeah. Robert Lay strangled himself with a towel before the trial even started. Oh, wow. And Herman Goring swallowed a concealed cyanide capsule shortly before his scheduled execution.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Did they ever because I knew that he died prior to the executions, which obviously, spoiler alert, they got executed, which we all talked about. Did they ever come across how he had that cyanide capsule? No.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

There was there's only speculation. Um, this was um additional research that I did, it's not part of his book.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Um, but there they were suspicious of potentially um a guard passing it to him.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Oh, really? Yes, but there's no no sub substantial evidence for that.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

None at all. It was just a conspiracy.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Sure. Yeah. Because I mean, you would imagine at that time in that prison, essentially what it was, uh it was very tight, we'll say. Yeah. So for him to have one, I can't imagine he showed up with one.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Someone had to give it to him.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I would assume so. But it's I mean, it's a small capsule. I don't know if he can put it in his ear and they don't look there, or put it up his nose and they don't look up there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

You know damn well they checked every oh yeah, or if it's every crevice. Yeah, there's so there's no way you could, you know, yeah, put it even in your bum because he probably would have died because it would have dissolved or something weird, or especially his ears. I'm sure they checked his ears, his nose, his mouth, everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

So yeah, I don't know how it's just it's weird, it's never been proven.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, could you imag could you imagine being like, I killed that guy? But never Say it to anybody. It's like holy.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I know. Yeah, like if you were the one that slipped it to him.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, because yay, you killed him, but at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

He did it himself.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

He was gonna die anyways, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

I don't know. Guring, again, portrayed in the movie, he wanted to go out his own way. So anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

So when Kelly arrived, he found that many of the men were surprisingly eager to talk. After months of confinement and limited conversation, having someone willing to listen was apparently a welcome change.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Some prisoners, Alfred Yodel and Eric Eric Rader, my apologies for my German um pronunciations, um, they remained fairly formal and guarded, while others like Carl Dunitz, I've also heard it pronounced Dunnitz. Okay, and Joachim von Rybentrop.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

What's the first name?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Joachim.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Oh, wow, that's an interesting name.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Joachim, it's spelled like Walking Phoenix, like J-O-A-Yoakim.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Sure. Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I've looked at pronunciations. I don't know how accurate they are.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, we apologize in advance.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

But uh Donutz and Joachim um Ribent Rybentrop um became friendlier over time.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

And Guring then um developed a particularly close relationship with Kelly and reportedly cried when he left Nuremberg. Well Kelly left Nuremberg. That's so wild. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

I mean, holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah. So Kelly um viewed Nazism as a dangerous ideology that could spread beyond Germany, even comparing it to an infectious disease. Yeah. He hoped that examining the personalities of these men would help explain how they gained power and maintained that power.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

He referred to the prisoners as his 22 Nazi guinea pigs. And of the 22 men Kelly studied, 10 were executed, seven received prison sentences, three were acquitted, and two committed self-exit.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I didn't realize three you said were acquitted? I didn't realize that three were acquitted. Wow. That's freaking wild. Did I ever tell you about my guinea pigs, my first guinea pig's name?

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Squibbles.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

That's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

That's super cute. The funny thing is, we got him for Easter and uh he came with the name from the person my parents, I think my mom got him from. But yeah, it's super cute.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Squibbles.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

So Kelly also examined Hitler's personality in his book, but I did not include that um in this um series just because it's we're not talking about Hitler. Yeah. So nope.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Nope. So he wanted to answer a question. Kelly did. Were these men psychologically different from everyone else, or could ordinary people be capable of the same things under this the under the right circumstances?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Did he I I'm not trying to jump ahead, so just yeah, I guess yes or no, but did he come up with a conclusion to this question?

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Okay. Because I feel like ordinary people can turn out to be really shitty people.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

So am I in the same vein as Kelly? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

So um in Kelly's book, he has titled the chapters um based on the person that he's talking about. Makes sense. Okay. But before the chapters, he's got parts.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

And he's labeled these parts.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

All right.

Rudolf Hess And Loyal Delusion

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So the first part is called the policy makers.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

And that is uh Rudolph Hess is in this chapter or in this part. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

That's the guy who said he had amnesia. No. Right? No. Am I mixing up my people?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I had to scroll down.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

So you're good.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I don't remember a lot, even though I just read this yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Fucking spent three hours on these yesterday and I can't remember shit.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

So just to let Kate know, we're the history of buffoons.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Oh, oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Oh, how did I get here?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Okay. So Rudolf Hesse was one of Hitler's earliest and most devote devoted followers, eventually becoming deputy Fuhrer of Nazi Germany. Yeah. So Kelly describes him as a man whose loyalty to Hitler boarded on worship almost as though Hitler was like a father figure rather than a political leader. He almost had daddy issues.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

He almost made like from what I understand about Rudolph S. And I'm not a fucking expert on any individual uh Nazi person, but he almost made him seem like Hitler was a god to him.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah. No, it was like I said, borderline worship.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I'm gonna take a piece of cloth here and put it behind my back, so my back is actually starting to hurt.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Okay. I asked my chiropractor if lumbar support was bad for me. And he said, don't do it every day.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Oh really? Because you literally do that in your car. I know every day. Every day. I like how you call it my chiropractor, your your boss.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

He's also my boss. But I saw him as a patient. But uh yeah, he said it can atrophy the muscles around that lumbar area. I suppose that makes sense. So he said move the lumbar support. Oh, adjust it every so on, whatever. But like my back is hurting right now, so I'm gonna put some lumbar support.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Okay, weird. My back's hurting too because I worked today and that sucked something.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Okay, so Hess had served in World War I before join joining the Nazi movement. He participated in Hitler's beer uh failed beer hall pooch in 1923. Yeah. So this pooch, um hit Hitler and his supporters stormed a beer hall in Munich, hoping to force Bavarian leaders to join their rebellion before marching on Berlin and taking control of the country. The plan quickly fell apart, and when the Nazis marched through Munich the following day, police opened fire, killing 16 Nazis and four police officers.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Were they called Nazis at this time?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Was that I mean, I know, I mean, in general, I'm not sure when um that political party turned into that name.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Right. Um because this is where Hitler went to prison, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yes, exactly. So um he was arrested and sentenced to five years in prison, although he only served nine months.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

That's all he served. I guess I didn't realize it was that short.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

During his imprisonment, he began dictating Mein Kampf to Hess.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, Rudolf Hess is the one who recorded it or jocked it to him, I guess. Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

And after his release, he shifted towards gaining power through elections and other legal political processes rather than armed uprising. So great job.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

So I know we're not specifically talking about Hitler, and I I have not verified this, but I've heard this. Do you know who Hitler like kind of says in you know who I'm talking about? Um it's a very popular motor car.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Oh, yeah, the Ford.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

He like apparently Henry Ford was a fucking dick.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, I actually mentioned that in my story. Do you really? I do. Ha!

SPEAKER_01 29:29

All right.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

So over the years, um, Hess became one of Hitler's closest confidants, although he was frequently overshadowed by other Nazi leaders, including Hermann Göring.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Well, probably because he was wanted to suckle at the Tito Hitler so bad. He he was like he was too much of a yes man, even though that's what all those people ultimately were. Yeah, but he was like the ultimate yes man. He was he was basically like his um well, let's use uh Lord of the Rings analogy. He was like worm-tongued to uh Saruman, more or less. Yeah, he was a little bitch.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Yeah. So Kelly found Hess to be suspicious, emotionally immature, and constantly concerned about his health.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

He frequently complained complained of stomach problems and other ailments, although Kelly believed many of these symptoms were exacerbated psychologically.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

So he just made them worse in his head.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah. So he would actually go from doctor to doctor looking for a cure for his stomach problems, and they were all unable to diagnose him for anything. So of course he hated all medical professionals. He thought that they were incompetent. Um, and Hess actually had like this really bizarre theory that he could actually diagnose illnesses simply by examining the size and shapes of someone's pupil. Like he tried to do that with Dr. Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Okay, dude. Yeah, you are a psychopath.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Uh-huh. So apparently he believed that changes in the pupils could reveal what is wrong with the person's body.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

I just want to note Bonnie is hanging out with us and she's so cute, she just stretched. Sorry, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Hess was also fascinated by astrology and believed the stars could influence political and military events.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

What was his sign? I didn't fucking look it up. Stupid.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

By 1940, his becape behavior had become increasingly paranoid. So in 1941, Hess secretly flew to um Scotland.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Convinced that he could personally negotiate peace between Germany and Britain.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

He parachuted off the aircraft because he didn't know how it would land.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Well, with wheels and a runway and was captured shortly after. And this is where he because like he this is where he said that his amnesia came from, correct? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

So his plan was to convince Britain to accept Germany's control of Europe while also, excuse me, while allowing Britain to keep its empire.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

So did he do this because he was just trying to do something for Papa Hitler? Uh-huh. What an idiot.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

He also wanted Germany to have the freedom to attack the Soviet Union. Unsurprisingly, British officials weren't interested in his proposal and Hesse remained imprisoned.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Weird.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

So during his captivity, he became increasingly convinced that the British were trying to poison or kill him, and he attempted self-exit twice.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Did he really?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

All while having these stomach problems. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Maybe he just had an ulcer. Ulcer. I don't know what that just doesn't commercial.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

So one of the strangest things about Hess was his memory loss. While imprisoned, he claimed he couldn't remember important events from the past, including much of his time in Nazi leadership. Kelly initially believed the amnesia was genuine, but psychologically caused rather than the result of any potential brain damage. Yeah. So then during the trials, Hess suddenly announced that his memory had returned and admitted that his earlier memory loss had been a tactic. But Kelly didn't believe this. He believed Hess may have genuinely experienced psychological amnesia before eventually choosing to use it as his advantage. He thinks that Hess didn't want to appear weak, as in my brain is weak and I can't remember shit.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

So then he likes a very important individual. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

So it was like his ego talking like, no, no, no, that was a tactic. I meant to do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

But yeah, I I agree with it being um psychological, not actual like got hit over the head or whatever. You know, I don't know how you all get amnesia, but it was self-induced.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

I think so, yeah. More or less.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

So Kelly considered Hess deeply insecure, paranoid, and emotionally dependent on Hitler.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

He believed Hess's unquestioning loyalty had contributed to his psychological deterioration, primarily after Britain's or excuse me, Germany's defeat.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Hess was ultimately sentenced to life imprisonment. He, along with the others who were sentenced to imprisonment, were sent to a prison in West Berlin.

Spandau Prison And A Long Afterlife

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Eventually, this is a little tidbit that I wanted to add after it's this is not in his book.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Eventually, the others completed their sentences or they were released, were released due to failing health. And by 1966, Rudolf Hess was the only prisoner left at this prison in West Berlin.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Literally one prisoner? One prisoner. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

He was there serving a life sentence. The name of the prison is Spandau Prison. Spandau.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

How old was he when he passed? Did you read that?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I do have that. I do have that here. So for the next 21 years, Jesus. He was the prison's sole inmate despite repeated requests from his family for his release. So he left behind a wife and a son. So then on August 17th of 1987. He lived till 87. At the age of 93. Holy fuck. Hess was found in a garden summer house, which I think is part of the prison. Okay. With an electrical cord around his neck. He died after being taken to a British military hospital. So he had attempted self-exit many times before. You had said that, yeah. But exactly why he made this last final attempt, we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

I mean, as far as we know, he could have had failing health and just like did it over with. Whatever, whatever scenario you want to come up with. But isn't it 87?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

93. Oh, yeah, 1987.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

That is fucking cra. So he was born in 94? 1894? Sure. Oh, yeah, you don't math.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I don't math, and I didn't look up their birth dates or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Well so 1987 minus 93. Carry the one. 1894.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Um that to me, I don't know why this kind of blows my mind. It's wild that I was alive while I know. A prominent Nazi official, we'll call him, was alive. I know. That's fucking wild. That is crazy. I didn't realize he lived to be 93 and also till 1987. That's fucking nuts. I know. That is crazy. Because I mean, it all ended in 45. You just assume it ended in 45, you know? But no, these some of these people lived on. That's that's just crazy to think about. They did. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

So I'm gonna my my thing keeps dropping. I'm sorry. You're good. Time to rock. Um, so he did have two autopsies and he did have a peptic ulcer.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Hey, I said ulcer. Uh-huh. Look at me go.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

So what's up, what's a peptic ulcer? Did you look at it? No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

It's got something to do with pep uh like peptobysmal. I don't know. We look into it.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

I don't remember the whole song. I just remember the diarrhea part.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Okay.

Alfred Rosenberg And Racial Ideology

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Um Prisoner number two.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Oh, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I know.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Are we gonna do a two-parter?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

It's I mean, if we need to, we can.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

All right, all right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

So this one is Alfred Rosenberg. Alfred Rosenberg was considered one of the Nazi Party's leading philosophers and played a major role in developing its racial ideology.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

So Kelly was not impressed with him at all, describing Rosenberg as intellectually limited, easily confused, and completely convinced of his own brilliance.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Oh, geez. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Originally from what is now Estonia, Rosenberg studied architecture in Russia before fleeing the Bolshevik revolution. He eventually joined in the Nazi movement and became one of Hitler's strongest ideological supporters.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

There's a really funny comic. I think he's from Estonia called Ari Maddie. He he was on the Kill Tony show and because it's come really popular.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

That's literally nothing to do with this, but I like it. He's funny.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

So Rosenberg wrote a book called The Myth of the 20th Century, and he attempted to explain history through racial struggle and the supposed superiority of the Nordic race. So wow. So more about blonde hair, blue eyes.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

The Aryan race. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

So Kelly found the book confusing and poorly organized, although Rosenberg considered it a major intellectual achievement.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh, so he's just No, it's brilliant. Well, look at me. This is my masterpiece. I can't do a German accent, I would do it so improperly. Speaking of comics, there's this other, I don't remember his name.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

This is why we're we might have to do two parts.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

I am well, we haven't done it in a couple weeks. We're having fun, at least I am. Um there's this fuck, I wish I remembered his name. There's this German comic. I'll have to show you. Anyway, let's move on. Okay. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

I will tell you, there is a book called Mouse, M-A-U-S. Yeah. That is a two uh two books in one, but it's a comic book on um yeah on uh I know of it. Yeah, I've never read it or whatever, but I bought it for somebody, and of course I read it before I gave it to her, but I actually read it in school. Like they that was required reading in school.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

No, I've I've seen that. I've never actually read it though. Yeah, was it good?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Oh yeah, like worth worth a read. Yeah, once. Once? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

I mean it's a comic book. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

It's a comic book style. Is it a graphic novel?

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

There it is.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

That's the one. It's really not funny. It's really, I mean, it's really not funny. It is a graphic novel. Thank you very much for for the vernacular. Rosenberg had several positions, including propaganda and Nazi education, before becoming Reich minister for the occupied Eastern Territories in 1941.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

His administration was associated with widespread looting, deportations, and mass murder throughout occupied Soviet territories.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Despite this, Rosenberg continued to portray himself as a philosopher rather than someone responsible for the atrocities c committed under Nazi rule.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

So he was basically just fucking delusional.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yeah. Or he's got rose-colored glasses on or something.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

He had some kind of glasses on because he was not a philosopher.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

So much of Kelly's time with Rosenberg was spent listening to his racial theories, which Rosenberg discussed with absolute confidence, despite having little evidence to support them.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

He believed it.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

He believed Germany could become stronger by preserving what he considered pure Nordic blood and prevent uh in preventing racial mixture. Sure. So one particularly disturbing conversation involved Rosenberg's idea about the United States. He believed black Americans should be forcibly relocated to Madagascar. Do you know how big Madagascar is?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

About that big on the map.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Alaska is bigger than Madagascar.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

No, I'm I'm aware of that. Isn't like Texas bigger than Madagascar?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

It's about the size of Texas. Yeah. So I mean it's small in comparison.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Why would he care about black Americans being relocated? He's in fucking Germany. Fuck off, dude.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

So when Kelly questioned how millions of people could possibly be moved there, Rosenberg brushed aside the practical and humanitarian problems. Of course. He even suggested forcing Madagascar's existing population to work on farms to support the newcomers.

unknown 42:01

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Okay. I never heard this. This is wild. All right.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And Kelly was just astonished how Rosenberg could like just talk about uprooting millions of people just because. But Kelly found Rosenberg fury frustrating because he seemed incapable of recognizing the flaws in his own argument.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Because he he wholeheartedly to his core believed them. So I get I can see how Kelly would be frustrated, but the the thing is he fucking believes what he's he needs a goddamn SWOT analysis. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

What now? He needs he for his ideas, he needs a SWOT analysis. What is the idea of strengths, weaknesses, um, opportunities, and threats? Did you ever have to do those in school? I don't recall them. No, I've had to do several.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

That's why I was confused with the SWAT. And then of course I just go to like the SWAT team, like A.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

A T, but this is O T. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

No, I'm I don't know if I've ever heard that before. Interesting. So what is it? What's the S again?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And it's always in a four two by two diagram, four four boxes, like a four-square.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

No, I don't know if I actually ever heard of that before. And if I have, I I used Kate's memory and forgot about it.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

You're welcome.

unknown 43:31

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

So during one interview, Rosenberg became upset with Kelly's interpreter because he closed like a copy of um Rosenberg's book.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

So how dare you?

SPEAKER_00 43:40

And he he was like insisting that the man needed to read it because it might change his religious beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

See, and that's why he's so fucking delusional because he's thinking, like, dude, this will blow your mind. You're gonna think a different way once you read it. It's like, no, not you fucking psychopath. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Even when confronted with evidence of atrocities coming. Committed in the occupied territories. Rosenberg maintained that he was innocent and only wanted what was best for Germany.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

I mean, there's nothing wrong with national pride. But maybe To an extent. You carried a little too far. Not maybe. You did.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Kelly believed Rosenberg had convinced himself that he was a brilliant philosopher whose ideas would eventually be appreciated by history, despite his inability to recognize the consequences of those ideas. Oh my word. Rosenberg was convicted at Nuremberg and executed by hanging on October 16th, 1946. Okay. Okay. Herman Goering.

Hermann Goering And The Charmer

SPEAKER_00 44:40

So we're still in the poly policymakers. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Oh my god. I'm sorry, I've made this very long.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Maybe we'll edit that out. Maybe. Maybe we won't. Herman Goering. Of all the Nazi leaders.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Reich Marshal, right? Yes. That's how he is that the proper term?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Uh something like that.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Reich Marshal? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

He was the one that was gonna take over if Hitler fell. Yes. If you will. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

So of all the Nazi leaders that Kelly examined at Nuremberg, Gering seemed to make the biggest impression on him. He was intelligent, charismatic, ambitious, and surprisingly pleasant to be around, considering he had been the one of the most powerful men under Hitler's government.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Well, like I said before, he was he was a charmer.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

He was.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

I mean, he he made you, I don't want to say believe in what he was saying, but he like made you comfortable. He like, I'm not so bad kind of mentality. And it's like fuck. I see why people follow this kind of kind of thing. Yeah. You know, and it's wild that someone of that magnitude can get to that position and like, yeah, I see what you're saying, Herman. You know?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Herman?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Herman.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

So Geering had been a decorated fight fighter pilot during World War One before joining the Nazi Party and became one of Hitler's earliest supporters.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

He was seriously wounded in their groin during the failed beer hall pooch in 1923. Oh, was he? And he developed a morphine addiction while he was recovering from it. Oh shit. So as Hitler gained power, Goering rose alongside him, eventually taking control of the Luftwaffe, which is the their Air Force, yep, and become Hitler's um designated successor. Which is wild. So Kelly found Goering remarkably friendly and cooperative. When he um would visit his cell, Goering would enthusiastically greet him and settle in for a conversation. He had an excellent memory, a huge ego, and a particular love of expensive clothing, elaborate uniforms, jewelry, and artwork, much of which had been acquired through Nazi raids.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Oh, sure. I bet.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

When capture, Goering weighed around 280 to 300. I think in the book. I think in the book they said like 260 to 280. And I was like, that doesn't seem very big. Right. And then other documents that I found said closer to like 320. Oh wow. So like that's that's why I was like, maybe it's more like 280, 300.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

But so he was a roly bully guy.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah. And so he was regularly taking this paracodine, which is yeah, which is their version of this pain management.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

How how tall was he? Did you come across the code? I did not look into that. I didn't look at that. I was just curious because like I'm a big guy, but I'm tall. Yeah. I have a gut. I drink beer. Yeah. Um, but a lot I'll tell people like what I weigh, and they're like, no, you fucking don't. I'm like ass the scale. Yeah. But it's I'm also tall, so that helps.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

But I mean, I kind of want to look it up now.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Well, why don't you do that while we talk about Armin Garring? I can't stress enough how much I liked Russell Crowe in that role. I really, I really enjoyed him. I I mean I love Russell Crowe. Um one of my literally probably top five movies is Gladiator. Um but he he played him really well. And like you said, he played him, he played a German very well.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

He did, like even the accent especially being Australian.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

He played a German fucking awesome. Like I just I love I love Russell Crowe.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

He um Bering was my height, five ten.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Really? Mm-hmm. So not a terribly tall person. I mean, tall enough, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

So he he would have been a little bigger looking guy.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Yeah, and I think maybe his weight was focused in just the the abdomen, you know. I don't know, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

But no, I was just I was just curious, just like for a visual of the brain, like what do you what was Kelly walking into when he would see him, you know, kind of thing, is all I'm going for. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

And Kelly gradually withdrew his medication, and with the diet in the jail, Goering actually lost about 60 pounds during his embrace. 60 pounds in five months.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Yeah. So despite his extravagant lifestyle, um, the ruth and ruthless political behavior, Goering appeared devote uh genuinely devoted to his wife and daughter. And Kelly noted that their safety was one of his biggest concerns after surrendering.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

For sure. So was that accurate in how he surrendered?

SPEAKER_00 49:33

I did not look into that. I did try to look into facts to figure out what was false and what was true. And most of what I found was just more of an exaggeration kind of a thing, but I didn't specifically look up to see if Kelly actually talked to his wife and daughter.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

I I was more or less asking like how Guring, how they got Goering were he, because I thought it was pretty funny in the movie. That's fucking Herman Goering. And like, what do you just say to us? Get my luggage.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

Get my luggage.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

So I just I I'm again, I don't know much about the Nuremberg trials. So all this, and again, I'm going mostly off of the movie, which again, I understand is a little pro probably a little fabricated in certain spots. So I I this is why this is fascinating to me. He just wonders like, is that really how he surrendered?

SPEAKER_00 50:24

I know.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

I mean, I could see it.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

I didn't look into it, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

I wasn't sure if he came across that or if the majority of this is based off the book. Um, I understand that.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

And a couple of like little tidbits that I just found, but I get it. So what Kelly found particularly disturbing about Goering's ability to be charming and generous towards people was that he showed no concern for those he considered enemies.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

So Goering openly discussed his involvement in building Nazi the Nazi government, including the persecution of Jews and the the suppression of political opposition without showing any remorse.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

No, because he did it for gain.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah. He also acknowledged that his decision to join the Nazi Party had been motivate motivated largely by by ambition.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

He recognized that Hitler's movement was gaining influence and saw an opportunity to gain power himself.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

And so he was just also seeking power. Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Göring admired Hitler's ability to influence people, but claimed that Hitler became increasingly irrational and unwilling to accept criticism as the war progressed. So he insisted that he had disagreed with several major military decisions, although these were Goering's claims and they weren't necessarily reliable. Sure. But Goering had actually a few um military downfalls, which tainted Hitler's trust in him, like just failed missions and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

That's right. Yeah. I do remember hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

So their relationship finally collapsed in April of 1945 when Göring sent Hitler a telegram asking whether he should assume leadership as Germany fell apart. Wow. He was Hitler's successor after all, but of course, with others in his ear, Hitler interpreted the message as an attempt to seize power. What did he do? And ordered Goering removed from his positions and placed him under house arrest. And he's doing this from the freaking bunker. Well, yeah. Göring later blamed Martin Bormann and Hitler's inner circle for turning Hitler against him. Martin Bormann was Hitler's uh powerful private secretary and one of Gring's political rivals. He controlled much of the information and access reaching Hitler, especially in the final years of the war.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

So he's thinking he altered basically what the the meaning of the world. Interpretation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Exactly. So when when Goring's telegrams arrive, Borman potentially interpreted.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Exactly. Hitler's like, what? Nine. See, this dude, this is the last of it.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Oh Jesus. Nine. What?

SPEAKER_01 53:10

What? Nine. How's the rest now? I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

So despite losing nearly everything, Goering adjusted surprisingly well to prison life. Which is wild. He remained confident, um, talkative, and frequently entertained himself by telling stories and making jokes.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

He also quickly established himself as the unofficial leader of the Nazi prisoners, attempting to organize their defenses and maintain their loyalty.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

So do you think he's like, I'm gonna tell a joke? So this Nazi walks into a bar. Like, what? What the fuck? So Goering that he would tell jokes. That's so weird. I don't know why I find that so hard.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

We're on death row. Let's have some jokes. Jokes for days. So Goering insisted that he wasn't a war criminal and argued that he had simply been serving Germany.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Well, and that I can see why he would make that argument only because it would favor him in this whole scenario. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

So he also believed the trials were unfair because the victorious Allied powers were judging the defeated Germans. So Goering was sentenced to death by hanging, but on October 15th, 1946, just hours before his scheduled execution, he swallowed a concealed cyanide capsule and self-exited. Kelly believed his final decision was completely consistent with Goering's personality. He had spent his life seeking power and control, and even at the very end, he wanted to determine his own fate.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

He wanted that control.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

What Kelly found particularly interesting was that Goering possessed many qualities associated with successful leadership, including intelligence, confidence, charisma, and determination. However, those qualities have been accompanied by an extraordinary lack of concern for the suffering of others. Of course. Next, we have the next part, which is the salesmen or like the propagandists.

Propaganda Voices And Shifting Blame

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Oh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

So we have Hans Fritsche.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Fritsche?

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Fritsche. Fritcher. Fritscher.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Fritscher. All right. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

That's what I'm saying, and I'm sticking to it.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Let's go with it again. Sorry. We're not German.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

So Fritscher was one of Nazi's Nazi Germany's leading radio propagandists working under Joseph Goebbels.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Goebbels. I was gonna say I said During because Joseph Goebbels. Yes, Goebbels is the main propagandist for the Nazi regime.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

And he was to spread the Nazi message to the German public. So Kelly considered him intelligent, but relatively unimportant compared to the other prisoners, since Fritzha had little influence over the government's actual decisions.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

He was more just the messenger of their Yes, their ideology. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Before Joe joining the Nazi propaganda operation, Fritz had studied history and political economy and worked as a journalist.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

His broadcasting career eventually caught Goebbels' attention and he became the familiar voice of German radio.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Fritzha had plenty to say about his former boss, describing Goebbels as brilliant at manipulating public opinion, but also vain, sarcastic, and extremely difficult to work for.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Oh well, can you imagine that he would have been nice to work for? Yeah. That dude was a probably a piece of shit. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

So Gurp Goebbels was apparently a workaholic who regularly stayed up late into the early morning hours reading newspapers and reports. He understood that propaganda was most effective when it appealed to people's emotions rather than presenting facts. Yep. So Fitz Fitzha also claimed Goebbels was deeply insecure about his physical appearance, particularly his club foot from a deformed leg. And he compensated by seeking power and recognition. Apparently, he had a like a limp.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Interesting. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

I didn't either. Fritz admitted that he had spread anti-Semitic propaganda, but insisted that he had never supported the mass murder of Jews. He also became increasingly critical of Hitler and other Nazi leaders, although Kelly questioned whether this was genuine regret or simply an attempt at distancing himself from the regime now that Germany had lost.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

Right, right, right. I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Unlike many other defendants, Fritz had was acquitted at Nuremberg. Wow. Fritz was present in the Berlin Fuhrerbunker during the last days of Adolf Hitler.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 57:53

After Hitler's death, he surrendered to the Red Army. After his acquittal in January of 1947, a German denazification court sentenced him to nine years of hard labor.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

He was released under amnesty in 1950 and died three years later.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

So many of the men were convicted in a German denazification court. Whereas Nuremberg was like US and Britain and France.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

The world. World court, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Okay. So fuck, I just lost my question. Um sorry, I lost it. I had a question about it, but now I'm drawing a blank. My apologies.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

That's fine.

Baldur Von Schirach And Hitler Youth

SPEAKER_00 58:40

So the next propagandist was Balder She Ronk. She Shira.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

She Roth.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Balder Von She Rah.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Oh, you for you didn't say that. I forgot the Vaughn.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Because I know how to pronounce that, so I didn't include that in the pronunciation.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

So what what Kate will do a lot of times, so she tr can try and you know pronounce it properly. She will highlight in her notes how to like phonetically say it, more or less. So I forgot the Vaughn. She forgot the Vaughn.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Because I know how to say that one.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Oh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

So Baldur von Scheroch.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Um, so Scheroch von Scheroch was the leader of the Hitler youth and one of the youngest defendants at Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

How old was he?

SPEAKER_00 59:32

He was 38.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

He actually had American family connections.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Whoa. That came out of nowhere. Excuse me. My bad, my bad, my bad.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Well, we'll get that cough button eventually.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

His mother was American, and his grandfather had fought in the Union during the um American Civil War.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

No shit.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Wow. So as a young man, von Schirach was interested in poetry and literature, but he eventually became drawn into the Nazi ideology. Of course. He claimed that reading Henry Ford's anti-Semitic writings had influenced his early beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Isn't that fucked up?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

And after meeting Hitler, he became an enthusiastic supporter.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Did you know that about Henry Ford?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

I have no idea. And I have a fucking Ford in my driveway right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Oh yeah, Nathan's truck is Ford.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

And I have Coco Chanel earrings, and she was a Nazi sympathizer. She sure fucking was, which is just also wild. It's like, oh my god, I have like consumerism issues now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Yeah, it's like when I buy shit, I'm like, did they like the Nazis? I know, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Like, what's the what's the controversy with this person now?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

So I I do like to listen to uh Joe Rogan's podcast because I I enjoy the people that he has on and I really like their conversations. And he literally just brought up the I don't I feel bad because I'm drawing a blank on the guests that he had, but they were talking about the Henry Fortune, how he's like mentioned in Mind Conference and whatnot. It's like, what the fuck? I I had no idea until I heard that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

And we gotta spread this message.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

I mean, yeah, down with Ford and fix or repair daily, whatever. Um, maybe that's why they have to, but no, I had no idea. That's fucking wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

So von Schirach was placed in charge of organizing Germany's youth into a massive national movement built around physical fitness, outdoor activities, discipline, and loyalty to Hitler. Yeah, he was an effective organizer who genuinely believed he was teaching what he in what he was teaching, which Kelly found particularly troubling. Sure. Rather than simply encouraging young people to support the government, von Schirach was helping shape an entire generation around Nazi beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

He was trying to start them when they're young.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

So he later became Gaul Latir, Gauter of Vienna, Gautier of Vienna, where he was involved in the deportation of Jews. So Gaul Latir was a regional district leader of the Nazi party in Vienna, Austria. That's what Galatir is. So during his interviews with Kelly, von Schirach admitted that he had been wrong to follow Hitler so blindly and expressed guilt over his role in indoctrinating German youth. He also claimed to have opposed the deportation of Vienna Jews, although he had still participated in the Nazi system.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Kelly believes some of Schirach's um remorse was genuine, but he worried that the beliefs that he had helped instill in German youth wouldn't simply disappear because Hitler was dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Because it ended. I mean, and and that's the thing. That's like you literally, like you said, indoctrinated, which is funny because a lot of that shit's going on today. Wild. Uh, but you indoctrinate these kids. It's not like, oh, well, he was wrong. All right. Let's go play ball. Right. You know, it's like it's not like that just fucking left their brain. No. That's the whole thing of indoctrinating people, is that you fucking you implant it. It's almost like inception. The movie. You put it in their brain, it's gonna fucking flourish.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

So Von Shiroch was sentenced to 20 years in prison. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

20 years. Did he make it? Did you come across that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

So none of the so once Kelly was done interviewing, that's the end of the book.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Oh, I see. So none of anything that you came across like where is additional research, but I did I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

I did pull um like who was found guilty in a Nazi de Nazi sorry, a German denazification um court. Um yeah, let me see if I can find it real quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

No worries. Because it's just wild to think about like again, um died in 87. Like, I'm not sure. I know, that's that crazy. I was freaking seven, eight years old that year, and the year he died, it's like, what the fuck? It's just it's wild to think that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

That was two.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

I was two excuse me, but I don't know. If you can't find it right now, it's it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

I feel like I was close. Here I am. Here I am, here I am. Um here we go. Balder von Schurock. Um his he died in uh on August 8th of 1947 of natural causes. He was only 67 years old. Oh, but he's he was the young one. Wasn't he the young one? No, that was fish.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

He said he's 47.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:04

67 is when he died.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

And he was born in 74. Not 47, sorry, seven. He died in 74. Lord have mercy. Wow. Lord have mercy. It was really rough. He died in 74.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Okay. He died of natural causes. He was 67 in 74 when he died of natural causes. So he was born in 1907. Great job. So he did not fight in World War One.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

Okay, so do we want to end this for part one?

Why We Split This Into Two

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Uh we're we're getting too a little bit long of an episode. I think we make this a two parter.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Um, because I've been I've really been enjoying this this topic, and it's it's fascinating to hear like the I don't know, the fucking insaness.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

I know the like the psychological um determinations.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Yeah, that's a better way to say it than just. These fucking insane people. It it's really fascinating because they believed so much in what they were fucking doing that I I don't know how to describe it better. They're just like, yeah, this is this is who we are. But it's like, no, you fucking psychopaths.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

You are killing people.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

For no reason, other than just, I don't like you. You know, more or less. But yeah, I think uh I think this is a good because I don't I don't wanna I don't want to like just breeze through the rest, yeah, is what I'm saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

So okay, so we'll we'll end here and uh be on the watch out for um our part two. Part two part two on the book of um Dr. Douglas Kelly, 22 Cells in Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Yeah, no, it's it's been really fascinating. Like I I like the the again. I'm I'm I did not know much about the Nuremberg trials. I I knew of them, I didn't know much detail about them. Uh I watched we watched a movie, um, which again I actually really really loved. Um, so it's it's really kind of fascinating to go a little bit deeper into yeah each one based off of his book because I'm you know, again, the little bit I know about how he um well, unfortunately unalived himself at one point because of the trauma and other things in his life, that you know, he took the time to write all this out. It's just wild because it's like it's fascinating because literally he was just trying to discover can this be um what's the word I'm looking for? Can this be prevented in the future? And uh sorry, Dr. Kelly, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Look at our current world, but anyways, um, real quick, I want to point out our episode that we did.

Related Episode Recommendation And Context

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

If you want to listen to um an episode, it's not on Hitler either, however, it's from a first-person perspective of the person of a secretary um who was in the Fear Bunker with Hitler. Um, listen to our episode that was released on December 10th of 2024. Yeah, um, it's called episode 18 called Plan B on Trottle Young.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

That was a really fascinating episode. Uh because I did not know anything about her.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

She was not quite quite, excuse me. She wasn't part of the Nuremberg trials. However, she was interviewed.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Um, I can't remember if it was a judge that interviewed her.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:34

I don't recall.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

I don't recall, but um very, very um what's the word I'm looking for? Um speaks really well. What's that word?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Uh oh shit. Yeah. Eloquent? No, no, no. Something. I don't know. But um I know what you're trying to say, but I can't come up with it either. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Yeah. No, I really, I really enjoyed that episode. That was really fascinating to see that perspective and and the guilt that she lived with well after the fact, being like, could I have done something? But he was again, Hitler was very charismatic for being a really ugly fuck. And he he made people believe, which is just wild how this one person made so many people believe in what he wanted, yeah, more or less. And um, the guilt that she felt afterwards, it was really fascinating to see that side of it, you know, someone so close, but yet so far away. Yeah, I mean, no, it's it's wild, but um yeah, so we will do part two of Dr. Kelly's book. Uh like all that stuff, follow, please. We appreciate everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

And spread the word too. Like share our shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

Hey, have you heard of the history of buffoons?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

Because I know I heard they're pretty much idiots, but maybe they're entertainment. You know what? I'm learning shit. I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:00

Okay, I love learning shit. We're gonna end it on this because Russell Crowe's in the movie. Are you not entertained? Well, I suppose. All right, buffoons.

Where To Find Us And Wrap

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at historybuffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

Follow us wherever you get your podcast and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:48

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.