Gotta Get That Funk: 22 Cells at Nuremberg, Part Two

Part Two Setup And Recap

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Oh hey there. Oh hey there. I'm Kate. I'm Bradley. And this is the History Buffoons.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

We did this intro way better than the last one. Because we are a little bit rusty.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

This is part two of our episode from last week. We did not intend it for it to be a part two, but we're just having too much of a good time on this one that we had uh quite a bit more commentary and back and forth, and we just really want to continue.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

So for me, it was a couple things. Uh, first, we hadn't been able to record an episode in a little bit, so we've been a little uh distant on that, I guess. I don't that's not the right way I wanted to say that, but I find this fucking fascinating because of the psychological, and that's basically what Dr. Kelly was going for is to interpret and find out if this is there. We go. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Do you want to explain real quick what you're talking about you're referring to?

SPEAKER_04 1:04

So uh what we did last uh last week's episode was talking about uh Dr. Kelly's book about his interviews, more or less, with the people who were on trial for the Nuremberg trials. Uh very famously Hermann Goering, because he was again the the Reich Marshal.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

But and then obviously 22 total people who uh went on trial for I want to say war crimes, but world crimes, more or less.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, so it was crimes against humanity peace, crimes against humanity. Yeah, those were a couple, so but uh this is a continuation. I'm going through literally every 20, like all 22 of these um people. And uh yeah, we um we just we had a really good time, so we wanted to split it up so it wasn't too long, but yeah, because you know I I do like some long form long form podcasts. I do too.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Uh because with the work that I do, that's I literally have earbuds in all day. Yeah, and I listen to uh podcast sometimes music as well. I've been rocking out uh and Justice for All by Metallica lately. It's been great. 1988, great album, anyways. Um, so I I I don't mind long form, but you know, we're typically on brand for about roughly an hour. So we figure we'd break it up and just do two of them. Um and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So we are in the middle of um Dr. Douglas Kelly's um book called 22 Cells in Nuremberg, and it is based off of the interviews that he um did. So what happens after um we talk about the interviews are is additional information that I have researched. So that that uh Douglas Kelly did not talk about. But um, we are in the part of the book where um he has titled the part the salesman, which is the propagandist of the Nazi regime. Yeah, so we talked about no, not the regimen. So we talked about um Fritscher, who was um the propagandist, the German radio host. Yeah, and then we also talked about um, let's see if I can remember his name. Bald Baldur von Schierich, who was the leader of the the Nazi youth. And then we're just gonna go right into on this next person. His

Ribbentrop And The Need For Approval

SPEAKER_00 3:33

name is Joachim von Rip Ribentrop. Okay, so he served as Nazi Germany's foreign minister, although he entered politics, although before entering politics, he had made his living selling wine and liquor.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Really?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

Oh, he and I have something in common.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

So he used his wealth and social connections to work his way into Hitler's inner circle, okay, eventually becoming ambassador to Britain and then foreign minister in 1938.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

So Kelly described Ribbentrop as ambitious, arrogant, and deeply insecure, believing that much of his behavior came from a desperate need for approval and recognition.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

And I feel like that's kind of a theme. Like they believe in their own brilliance, but also insecure.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

It seems like because obviously Hitler being the number one, they were always looking for his approval. Yeah. Look what I did for you, Fuhrer.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

And all it's like, cool, go sell another bottle of wine.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So despite holding one of Germany's most important diplomatic positions, Kelly believed that Rybentrop um lacked the experience and judgment necessary for the job.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

He loved elaborate uniforms, demanded absolute obedience from his staff, and apparently enjoyed making people feel inferior because he was inferior himself.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

So he had an inferiority complex? I think so.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

One colleague described um how Rybentraub would require his staff to stand at attention whenever he arrived, sometimes leaving them standing like that for hours.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

For hours? That's just a dick move, dude. I mean, I get because you know, higher up in the hierarchy, whatever you want to say there. But man, for hours.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Like I mean, I'm sure they're in the position of saying, if you don't do this, I'll have you killed.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

Yeah, and and that's the shitty part about how they did shit. Yeah, it's like fall in line or you're fucked, kind of thing. And oh wow, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So Rebentrop was almost completely dependent on Hitler's approval, after often depending, sorry, defending his decisions even when he privately agreed, disagreed with them. So like he would do something even though he disagreed with it.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

He was a yes man, like multiple people were talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Kelly noticed that Rybentrop's um confidence seemed to depend heavily on whether Hitler had praised or criticized him. Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Kelly found Rybentrop particularly difficult to interview because he was constantly anxious about what would happen to him. He frequently interrupted conversations to complain about his treatment or ask whether he might be executed. And despite his behavior, Kelly did not consider him mentally ill.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Instead, he saw an insecure man who had gained enormous power through ambition and loyalty to someone more powerful, powerful than himself. Sure. He says, um, this comes from the book, which is directly from um Rybentrop.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

He said, quote, I have always stood behind the fear and always will, end quote. Though he was quickly to add, quote, I had nothing to do with the policy and I'm not guilty of any crimes, end quote.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

But yet you literally just said, you'll always follow the fear.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

But I didn't do those things.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

But but no. I mean a follow, but no. No, no, no. I would never do that. Wow. What a clown. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

He also apparently sent Hill sent Hitler a telegram on April 27th of 1945. And do you recall recall when Hitler died?

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Right about then?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

30th.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He died three days later. I knew it was April. I was, I thought 30th, but okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

So Reibentrop sent him a telegram on the 27th asking permission to come to Berlin and die next to him.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

Wow. Really?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Mm-hmm. It's like a puppy dog without an owner.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Hey, can I can I die next to you?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Can I come home with you?

SPEAKER_04 7:56

So I at first I was like, sent a telegram. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

What you doing?

SPEAKER_04 8:02

How's it going? Stop. Sorry. What you doing next week? Stop. Wow. So he's so he's like, hey, so I know this is going south real quick. Can I come? Could I please die next to you? That'd be great.

unknown 8:22

I know.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Wow. That's such the amount of worship. It's yeah, and that's exactly the way to put it is the amount of worship behind this one man, Hitler. It's like, we believe in you so much. I would literally want to because didn't Goebbels is the one that like killed all of his family and everything in the bunker as well, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Um he had six children and his wife, and that he killed them all.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Killed them all and himself and everything. And they thought, like, well, we can't live without the fear, so we can't live. So let's let's fucking end it. Sound good kids?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, I know you wanted to play soccer, Billy, but I know you wanted to play soccer, Billy.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

But we got something more important to do. I mean, it's just so wild that like the blind fucking like worship of this one person. One human, faulted human. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Okay, so in his final will.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Oh, he had a will?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yes. If you remember our episode on Trottle Young. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Um, and Hitler's final will.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Hitler's final will, yep, Hitler's final will, the one that Trottle Young dictated.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Or it was dictated to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Hitler removed Joachim von Robentrop from his position as foreign minister.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Why?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

And named Arthur Zeiss Ingvart as his replacement. Despite Reibentrop's years of loyalty, Hitler excluded him from the new government as appointed shortly before his death in April of 1945. And of course, Reibentrop was devastated.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

So what did he do to have Hitler remove him?

SPEAKER_00 10:13

He I don't know if he ever found out.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, literally days later.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, he died. Yeah. He could not seem to understand why Hitler would reject him.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

That had to crush him.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

And as the trial continued, he became increasingly frightened and depressed. Sure. Um, Rybintraup was convicted, and he was actually the first to be hung on October 16th, 1946.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

Wow. Okay. Yep. I God, could you imagine being that devoted to a person and is like, nah, fuck this guy. Yeah. I'm replacing you. Like, wait, what? I did all of this shit for you and you're just replacing me? I know. Good lord, that to a person that was that loyal. Loyal and shallow and self-worth. Wow. If you tap the microphone, apparently it likes to go. You'd be like, Well, why what was I doing here then? I know. But do you think that ever even crossed his mind? He's like, I believed in it. But oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

He he questioned, like, what the hell did I do?

SPEAKER_04 11:15

Why would he that had to crush his spirit so fucking hard? Wow. That's wild. Okay. Interesting.

Neurath And Papen Playing Both Sides

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So two more salesmen. Constantine von Neuroth.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

That Constantine, that's an odd German name.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Constantin. Constantin. There's no E on the end. Constantin von Neurath.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Again, we apologize for any and uh uh pronunciation.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And the other one is Franz von um Franz von Franz von Poppen.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

So Mary like Mary Poppins, yeah. Relative to Mary?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So Konstantin von Neurath was a career diplomat who served as Germany's foreign minister under Hitler until 1938. Oh Kelly described him as an intelligent, because there was another foreign minister.

SPEAKER_04 12:11

Yeah, you just mentioned you mentioned him before. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Uh, and I can't remember which one that was. Cause I suck.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Cause I suck. So harden yourself. Foreign minister, cause I suck. Cause I suck.

unknown 12:25

God damn.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Well, because you said the 22 of them, so don't worry about it, don't worry about it, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

You did just mention it. Was that in the first episode?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah, it was in the first episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

That was that was a week ago.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Okay, so Kelly described him as an intelligent, well-mannered gentleman who had spent so much of his life serving the government, yeah, that he seemed willing to serve whoever happened to be in charge.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

So it wasn't just about Hitler, it was about the ideology and the government and bought into the whole picture.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

It could have been Adolf, it could have been Hermann, it could have been whoever. He bought into all of it, is what you're saying. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

But um von Neurat claimed that he had stayed in his position because he believed he could moderate Hitler's more extreme ideas. Oh. Kelly wasn't particularly convinced, pointing out that von Neurat had um repeatedly compromised his own principles to remain in power. Kelly believed he was an example of someone who had sacrificed his integrity for professional success.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Von Neurat was sentenced to 15 years in prison.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

That's it, huh?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Wow. I know, that's it. I know.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

It just like, okay, I know how many were executed? Did you say? Do you remember the number?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

No, not off my hand.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

No, that's okay. Let's just say X number of people are executed. Three, three were acquitted, if I remember right. Three were acquitted. And then the rest were sentenced, right? How are they not all sentenced to life? I know it. I mean, seriously. I know it. Well, you know what? 15 years seems good for what for what you are a part of. It's just it's wild that you have all these people. We're gonna kill you. You? A couple years here and there.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Um, ten were executed, seven had prison sentences.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Three were acquitted, two self-exited prior. Yes. Okay. So ten were executed. But it's like, okay, you weren't executed by the trial. Well, how do you not get life in prison?

SPEAKER_01 14:41

No.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Yeah, 15 years sounds about right for what you did. Which, and I get I understand that certain levels of crimes get you certain levels of years and so on in prison. So But just to me, like knowing that some people who were part of the whole Nazi world got literally this many years compared to life in prison or execution. It's it's it blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

So Von Murath died in 1956.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Um, of natural causes after ill health. So he was released to die. Oh, see, like I feel like most of these people either followed through on their sentences or they were released due to poor health and then died.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

I feel like you shouldn't have been warranted that fucking luxury.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

None of them should have. No.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

No, you die in prison, you motherfucker. Sorry, you're you're you're about to die from poor health, but you're gonna do it in prison. That that's that's wild that they're like, all right, you know what? You got a bad ulcer. It's gonna take your life. I mean, I just picked ulcer because of the water, but yeah, you know what I mean. It's just like, you know what? Yeah, why don't you go die at home?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, with your loved ones in a comfortable bed.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah, fuck those guys. That's bullshit. Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

So if he was convicted in late 45, early 46, okay, and he died in the earlier ones that were convicted then?

SPEAKER_04 16:17

Is that right? Because you said one person was convicted in 47.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Um, so that that was probably the denazification court.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Oh, um, I might be mixing that up. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah, so they were they were end of 45, like October 2013.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Everyone was from end of 45 to 46.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Early 46.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

And then anything after that would have been like the German courts. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, I'm I was messing that up.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, so um uh von Niereth, um his date was death was in 1956, right? So 12 years.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Wow, 11 years.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I mean it was August of 56.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

And 45 to 56 is 11. Either way, yeah. So um wow, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So um the next one then is Franz von Papen, excuse me, not Pei Pen, Papen.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

There's so many Vaughns.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

So he was a former German chancellor who had played an important role in helping Hitler gain power in 1933. Okay. He came from an aristatic aristocratic um background and had previously served as a military attache in the United States during World War I.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

What is an attache? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

That was not part of my research.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Do you think he liked if he was an aristocrat? Do you think he liked the aristocrats?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Who doesn't? It doesn't matter if they're an aristocrat or a teletubby. Who doesn't like the aristocrats?

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Xavier, when he was, I mean, he's still pretty young, but when he was a few years younger. I fucking love that movie.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

We would put it on the Bob who wants to be a cat.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

I I've showed you that video of the Rob Zombie suck where they're playing the piano and it's all falling down through the building. It's it's so good. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Oh no, no, I want to watch that. Okay. I know, right? Franz von Poppen was Franz von Poppen. Yeah. So he came from uh an airistocratic background.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Okay. You know, Mary's crafty.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

He was involved in German espionage and sabotage activities. Sabotage. So von Poppen insisted that he had opposed Hitler and claimed that he had remained involved in politics to prevent the Nazis from becoming too powerful.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Wow, he fucking failed. He straight up fucking failed.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Kelly pointed out that von Poppen had repeatedly accepted positions under Hitler whenever they offered him influence or prestige.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

But he only took them to try and stop.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

One particularly interesting example, uh, von Poppen claimed he had tried to prevent Germany from taking over the country of Austria, yet he admitted that he had worked to strengthen Nazi influence in Austria while serving as ambassador.

SPEAKER_04 19:16

He realized that his his papa fear was from Austria, right? So I man, I want to go back to Salzburg.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Kelly considered von Poppen intelligent and emotionally stable, but also um extremely ambitious and willing to change his loyalties whenever it benefited him.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Oh, of course. Weird.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Von Poppen was acquitted at Nuremberg. The court acquitted him, seeing that he had committed a number of political immoralities. These actions were not punishable under the conspiracy to commit crimes against peace, which was written in Poppen's indictment.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Okay.

unknown 19:57

Okay.

The Gunmen And The Obedience Defense

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So the next part is the gunmen.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

All right. I know. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So these are more like military or security type leaders. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

So we have Alfred Yodel.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Yodel.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Spelled J-O-D-L.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

I figured as much, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Um, he served as the chief of operation staff of the German Armed Forces High Command and was one of Hitler's most important military advisors. Oh, wow. Kelly found him intelligent, reserved, and extremely disciplined.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Okay. Well, military makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yodel came from a military family and had spent most of his life preparing for a military career. Sure. During interviews, um, Yodel remained formal and insistent that he had simply been carrying out his duties as a soldier. He claimed to have known nothing about Nazi atrocities and argued that the men responsible must have been criminals rather than genuine Germans.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Kelly believed Yodel was ambitious and highly capable, but that his military discipline and desire for advancement had made him willing to serve Hitler without seriously questioning the consequences. Yodel was executed on October 16th of 1946.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

He was one of the executed, okay. One of the ten. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Wilhelm Keitel was another senior military commander who served as chief of the Armed Forces High Command.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Unlike Yodel, Kelly found Keitel more emotional and talkative. He was particularly concerned about the reputation of the German military and became upset when discussing the possibility that the sorry.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

That was such a weirdly timed verb. So sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I'm so sorry. I don't think I would have been able to press a cough button for that.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

No, but that was pretty impressive. I liked it. I'm so sorry. Or should I say, gross.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

He was particularly concerned about the reputation. Of the German military and became upset when discussing the possibility that the army's leadership would be remembered as criminals. Oh, good lord, dude. Keitel repeatedly insisted that he was simply following Hitler's orders. When Kelly questioned why he hadn't refused certain commands, uh, Keitel question um explained that German soldiers were trained to obey their superiors without question.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

So your your argument's kind of falling apart here, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Kelly found this attitude especially troubling because Keitel seemed unable to recognize that obedience didn't remove personal responsibility.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Uh I have to agree with uh Mr. Douglas Kelly here. Yeah. Dr. Douglas Kelly, because um I'm sorry. You clearly were. Whether you were blind obedient or willingly obedient, you fucking followed through with orders. And you're like, yep, you're done, Captain. You know? Didn't crush it enough. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

On to my next Bia.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

Biah. Gentlemen phabia.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

That's Wolstus.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

No. That's not fosters, not anymore. No.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

It's Australian phibia, and it's not even made in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Now we have Carl. It's either don do nitz or donits. I'm not sure. How do you spell it? D umlaut o. Oh. N-I-T-Z.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

Donuts? Donits?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

It's like goring with the that umlaut. I don't think that's umlaut.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Uh well, because like Motley crew has the umlaut above the U. Is it uh is it it's two dots? Is that right? Is the umlaut is that always called an umlaut no matter what letter it's involved with? I'm I've I never I never understood that. But again, I'm also not Zoman.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah. Um so I've I've when I went to go like look into the pronunciation, it said it was dunitz. Sure. But then when I was like watching some some videos and I I started re-watching Nuremberg for pronunciations, yeah, and they say it was like dunnitz.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

I could say dunitz, but again, I I am I am not good at this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

So Carl.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

Carl, hey Carl.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

He was a German naval commander who had become head of the Navy in 1943 and briefly succeeded Hitler as Germany's leader after Hitler's death.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

Wait, what? Really? Say that again?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

He briefly succeeded Hitler, like he was put in place.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

He was the new Fuhrer? Kind of. What about Göring though? Göring was replaced. Oh, that he was on house arrest. Heir. So was he the new Reichsmarshal? I didn't look up. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

What's I'm sorry, what's his name again? Carl Donitz. Donitz.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yeah, we'll have to do some additional research on him because now I'm curious because like, what's up, Carl?

SPEAKER_04 25:18

What can hell?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So Kelly found him surprisingly friendly, intelligent, and easy to talk to.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Well, because he's in the Navy. Sorry. I was thinking of the village people.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Um, he had a good sense of humor and was particularly proud of his career as a naval officer.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

So he's like two Nazis walking to a bar.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

So Donitz had commanded Germany's submarine fleet during the war.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

And insisted that his primary concern had always been the Navy rather than Nazi politics.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

Well, I mean, you are a naval officer, so your your priority should maybe be the Navy. I get it. And you know, not a lot. I'm I'm just speaking from just generalization here. This is not by any means true. You would think someone in that position would be like, I'm doing what I'm told. Fuck the politics. I just I want to make my I want to make my Navy run as efficiently as possible. Yeah. Is basically what I'm saying. Yeah. Not like, oh, Hitler doesn't like Jews. He didn't care. He just wanted his navy to run.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Exactly. He wanted to be successful.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

He wanted to be successful in his position, which was the Navy. Like, man, I got some U-boats. I should probably take some ships down right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah. So he was genuinely surprised when Hitler named him as his success for taking out Garing.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Can you imagine how surprised he would be like, wait, wait. I take over.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

You wait. I am fear and waiting.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Like he was surprised, but Kelly also believed that he was flattered. Oh. I mean, obviously. So at Nuremberg, uh, Donitz um initially seemed confident that he would be acquitted, but as the trial progressed, he became increasingly discouraged. One of Kelly's most interesting observations was how um Donitz's opinion of Hitler changed.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

At first, he continued to defend Hitler, but later admitted that Hitler had possessed two very different sides of his personality: one that could inspire loyalty and another that concealed his cruelty. Sure. Dunitz was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

10 fucking years. And he was apparently the heir apparent.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

I know. Apparently the heir apparent. Yeah. So that's wild. Dunitz died Christmas Eve in 1980. He never 1980. God damn. Natural causes at age 89.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

I was a year old. Holy fuck. He couldn't even make it to Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

That year. Okay. The next the next gunman is Eric Reda.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

I cannot roll my eyes, so I'm so glad you can.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Reda. So it looks like um Eric, like Eric with S C H Eric. But I think it might be pronounced Erich. Reda.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

So the same thing. Yes. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yes. So Reda had served as commander-in-chief, chief of the German Navy before Dunitz replaced him in 1943.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Kelly described Reda as intelligent, disciplined, and extremely reserved. He came from a traditional military background and was proud of his naval career.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Well, especially back then, you cannot say it about today because we're not going to get into that. You know, Papa was a naval man. I heard pop it like a tot. I didn't even come close to saying that, but you said Papa. That's all I said.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Pop it like a tot. Unlike Donuts. I will not finish. No, you're not going to be able to do that. Yes, please finish.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

Oh no, go on. Unlike Donuts. Bradley is not talking.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Tell me, we're gonna what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_04 29:35

You fucking kill that mind fucking thought. You remember your synapses? Mine just went brrrrr. I don't fucking remember. Oh, yeah. Just go on.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Okay, so unlike Donitz, uh Reda had been closely involved with Hitler's government from its early years. Oh, really? And had supported the expansion of German's navy.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

So he was he was replaced though in 43 by the fear to be.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah. Um Donitz is like climbing the ladder.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

He's climbing the ladder. And I'm sorry, what's this guy's name?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Reda.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Reda. Because I can't roll my eyes. I'm sorry. Um he how did he fall out of favor with the fear?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Oh, let me continue.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

I I would love if you did.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Kelly believed that Reda was more politically ambitious than he admitted, although Reda preferred to present himself as a professional naval officer who had simply served his his country. Okay. He was also noticeably less personable than Donitz, maintaining a formal and somewhat distant attitude during their conversations. Okay. Reda was sentenced to life imprisonment.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Oh, he got life.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

He was released on September 26, 1955. Less than 10 years.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

You get life in prison and you're released 10 years in prison.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And he was released because of deteriorate deteriorating health. Him die in prison, you fuck. No.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

You got life in prison, but you know what? 10 years in. You're on the way out, anyways. Let's just put you at home in that comfy bed. Would you like another feather pillow, sir, to die on? Fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

But guess that. Get get get this. What? After being released, he lived on for another five years.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Fuck that guy. Bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

In Kiel, West Germany, and he died at 84. An interesting detail.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Carl Dunitz, who had replaced Reda as commander, delivered his eulogy at his funeral.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

How fucking nice of him to do that. Carl, you are the man. You fucking piece of shit. What the fuck? Wow. Life in prison? Ten years is good. Yeah. You're on your way out. Oh, I'm gonna live another five. Fuck off. Fuck that guy. Seriously.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

What a piece of shit. So I don't know how Hitler lost favor with him, apparently. I didn't write that down, or I didn't come up with it.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

Or you don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Or that. So another gunman.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Yes, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Ernst? Ernst? Ernst.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Ernst.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Ernst.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

With an H? E-R-N-S-T. E-R-N-S-T.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

But it's German. So American would we would say Ernst. German, I think it's Ernst.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

So one of my uh very like everything. One of my very close friends uh when I was young, uh name was Mike Ernst, Michael Ernst. So I guess I never realized that was German.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Makes sense. No Ernst is his first name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Not yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

So Ernst Carlton Brunner. Brunner. Brunner. Carlton Brunner.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Carlton Brunner.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

What is happening right now with that?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Carlton Brunner. I'm I'm I'm prepping myself for saying Carlton Brunner. Okay. He was one of the highest ranking officials in the Nazi security system, eventually becoming head of the Reich Security Main Office, which oversaw organizations including the Gestapo and the SD.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

The SD is a specialized intelligence gathering department inside the SS.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

Oh, you didn't? Yeah. I I have heard of that. I I'm not an expert again, but I have heard of that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah. So originally trained as a lawyer in Austria, Kalton Brunner um joined the Nazi Party in 1933 and worked his way up through the SS.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Kelly described him as physically intimidating, arrogant, and ruthless when he held power, but surprisingly frightened once he became a prisoner. Of course.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Was he a big dude?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I didn't look up his because he was like what did you call him frighteningly whatever in the frightened once he became intimidated?

SPEAKER_04 34:22

That's sorry.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Because I mean, usually bigger people are more intimidating. Yeah. So I was wondering if he was just a big guy, but that's maybe he is a beefy guy.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 34:31

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

So Kelly frequently found that Colton Brunner crying in his cell.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Well, I mean, he knows what's prob probable to come.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah, he was terrified that he was gonna get executed. Yeah. In November of 1945, he also suffered a sub-arachnoid hemorrhage, which is bleeding around the brain.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Oh shit, really?

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Although he recovered enough to stand trial, Kelly believed the stress of imprisonment had contributed to this condition.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Contributed, yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Contributed, yeah. So to Kelly, Kultenbrunner was a man whose intimidating appearance concealed a much weaker and more insecure personality. Sure. While some Nazi officials claim to know little about his activities, Kaltonbrunner had been directly involved in the security system responsible for carrying them out. Kaltonbrunner was executed by hanging on October 16th, 1946.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Did every the everyone who was executed was that on October 16th? It was. It was that's what I thought. Because like again in the movies, yeah, they like they trotted them out like all right, we're killing this guy now. Yep, we're killing this guy now. I I was I I'm I assume they tried to do it all at one fucking time, is what I'm saying. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

So the next part.

Rabble Rousers And Propaganda Addiction

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yes, the rabble rousers. The rabble.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

I want to guess, but I don't want to get it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Rabble Rousers.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Like the just go on.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I'm gonna guess someone who can stir up the crowd's emotions. They can like get them going.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

That's what I was kind of saying. Yeah. I had to look it up.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I was like, what the fuck is a rabble rouser?

SPEAKER_04 36:12

I know like wrote rabble rouser was, but I wasn't sure if that's the way it was going. But it's it's like, yeah, like someone who can come on. It's like cheerleaders.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

More or less.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, or like really good priests.

SPEAKER_04 36:23

Weird, weird, weird, weird way to say that.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

You know, just people who are really um vocal and aesthetic and um dramatic with their words and just can carry a crowd, basically. Rabble Rousser.

SPEAKER_04 36:37

Would you call people on Broadway rabble rouser?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Um they listen to my words. Not only do we listen to their words, we listen to their singing and what a what what did I get you? Julie Andrews is one of your favorites. She's my goat. She's my goat. She's the greatest of all time. Yeah. Um, she was in a movie called Victor Victoria where she played, she was a woman playing a man, playing a woman.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

And so she was a cross dresser in it um basically to earn a living because she was poor as dirt. Yep. And she hit she did really well. Anyway, the mute that she's with um James Garner and Leslie Ann Warren. And then she also's fabulous. He is fabulous. And then she went on, like, I think in much later years, she went on to do the same role on Broadway with Michael Newry, who is um the male lead in Flashdance.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Um, and I can't recall the name of um the other male in it, but um the music, I love the music. So uh Bradley just got me um a vinyl record, uh a used vinyl record of Victor Victoria.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

I knew I knew that was one of your favorites, and I'm like, I saw it, and I'm like, I gotta get this for Kate because I know she loves it and appreciates it. Yeah, I've got a lot of musical uh vinyls and well, especially Julie Andrews. She's like you said, she's your goat. So I'm like, ah, I came across it. I'm like, I gotta get this for Kate. So I was happy to find one that was pretty decent condition and so on. So yeah, I was glad to get that for you.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah. Okay, so the rabble rousers. Um, so these are people with emotional speeches, aggressive behavior, able to stir up crowds.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, get them riled up.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

They weren't the most sophisticated men in Nazi party, but they were loudest.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

They well again, I'm not gonna say specifics. You could go very similar shit today.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

There's a small group, way too loud for their population. It's like yeah, okay, we get it. Yeah, cool. But back then they these people bought into their ideologies, yeah. Nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

So Julius Stryker was one of Nazi Germany's most notorious anti-Semites and the publisher of Der Sturmer, which was a newspaper.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

I heard of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Der Sturmer, Stumer? Sturmer? Sturmer, Stummer, yeah. Umlaut on the U. So it was fucking Umlaut. It was a newspaper known for its vicious anti-Semitic propaganda. Yeah. He was a formal former school teacher and became involved in nationalist politics after World War I and developed an obsession with blaming Jews for virtually every problem that Germany faced. Stryker's newspaper regularly published grotesque caricatures, fabricated accusations, and stories intended to encourage hatred towards Jewish people. He even published a children's book that supposedly taught young Germans how to identify Jews based on physical characteristics.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

Oh, I just thought they identified it with a star.

unknown 40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Kelly found that almost every conversation with Stryker eventually returned to Jews, regardless of what they had originally been discussing.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

This is the one that's self-educated, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 40:16

No.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Stryker was so consumed by his belief that he seemed incapable of talking about much else. Despite his extreme view, I know. Despite his extreme views, Stryker was surprisingly disciplined about his health. He exercised regularly, took cold baths, and maintained a strict daily routine. Were you like cold plunges? He was also, yes, he was also notorious for his sexual behavior and collection of pornographic materials. Really? Mm-hmm. And that was something that didn't exactly improve his reputation among other prisoners. Can't imagine it did. They actually, so be after they were imprisoned, but before their arrival at Nuremberg, yeah, several Nazi leaders disliked him so much that they objected to eating at the same table as him.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Because he liked porn.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

I think it was more about his like crude behavior and his. I mean, he was really uh he was loud, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

So Stryker insisted that he had never personally killed anyone and claimed that he had simply been warning warning Germans about what he believed was a Jewish Jewish conspiracy. Kelly considered his beliefs fanatical and irrational, but Stryker remained completely convinced that he was right. Even while facing execution, he believed history would eventually prove him correct.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

He was executed by hanging on October 16th, 1946. Wow. Robert Lay was the head of the German labor front and one of Hitler's most enthusiastic supporters.

SPEAKER_04 41:58

But unlike So you're telling me Lay was in charge of labor?

SPEAKER_00 42:02

He was.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

But unlike most of the other prisoners, Kelly believed Ley had an actual neurological condition that affected his personality and judgment. Oh, really? Lay had served as a pilot in World War I and suffered a serious head injury after being shot down in 1917. Kelly suspected that his injury had contributed to his emotional instability and impulsive behavior. Okay. After the war, Lay earned a doctorate in chemistry and worked for IG Farben, which is a German chemical and food pharmaceutical conglomerate. Okay. And this was before becoming involved in the Nazi politics. Gotcha. He developed a reputation as an energetic speaker who could get crowds excited, and Hitler eventually placed him in charge of the German labor front.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Lay promised workers better wages, housing, vacations, and improved living conditions.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Although vacations.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Although Kelly believed many of these promises were more propaganda than realistic policy.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

We'll just say we're going to do that.

SPEAKER_04 43:06

I mean, that's basically like a company you're applying for today. We really promote a work-life balance. Exactly. Fucking don't. Exactly. Work-life balance is like, yeah, you live your life at work.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:18

That's what they want. Yeah. They don't give a fuck. Just like he didn't give a fuck. Hey, we're going to give you vacations. Down the road, though.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah. Like probably closer to you, like the day that you retire.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

Closer to death. Right now, you're fucking ours.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

So Kelly found Leigh excitable, impulsive, and almost incapable of controlling his emotions. Okay. During interviews, Lay would sometimes become so worked up that he'd jump out of his chair, pace the cell, wave his arms, and begin shouting as though he were giving a speech to thousands of people. Wow. Kelly believed Leigh's earlier brain injury had affected his frontal lobes, contributing to his poor judgment. And lack of emotional control. Okay. One of the strangest things that Ley did while in prison was write an elaborate proposal for Germany's future. Despite the Nazis having just lost the war, Lay believed the movement could survive by forming an alliance with the United States against communism and the growing influence of Asia. He even suggested the former Nazi supporters could help rebuild Germany under American supervision. Like, we could still do this thing. We'll just we'll just have a big brother, you know.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

You got us, right? You got our back.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Kelly was amazed that Lay seemed genuinely convinced Americans might be interested in partnering with the very people they had just fought a war to defeat.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Maybe he heard about Ford.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Fucking weirdo.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

When Ley learned he was being charged with war crimes, he became increasingly agitated, insisting that he had only tried to improve the lives of German workers. On October 25th, 1945, before the trial began, Leigh strangled himself with a makeshift noose fashioned from a towel in his prison cell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Kelly later examined Leigh's brain, I'm assuming with maybe like scans of some type.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

And interpreted the findings as supporting his belief that Leigh had suffered frontal lobe damage.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Did they have scans back then? I don't know. I guess I'm not sure. No, that's okay. I just I'm just like talking all that.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

It was like, look at that. That's damage right there.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Weird.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah. Damage. To Kelly, Leigh wasn't it was an example of how emotional instability, impaired judgment, and unquestioning loyalty to Hitler could combine to make someone particularly subsessaba susceptible to Nazi ideology.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

This is a susceptibility.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Susceptible. Susceptible. Oh my word, that was English is hard.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

Yeah, transferman, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

The

Businessmen Who Made The System Work

SPEAKER_00 46:18

next part is the businessmen.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

The businessmen.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

So these are your lawyers, your bankers.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

I was gonna say the financial district, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Exactly. Exactly. Hitler needed people who could finance, write laws, turn his ideas into policy.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

Absolutely. Isn't it weird that a lot of Jewish people are lawyers?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

So this is the easiest name that we have on our list. Hans Frank. Hans Frank. Or might be Hans Frank. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

I guess it could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

So Frank was Frank. Um Frank was um Hitler's former loyal lawyer and eventually became governor general of occupied Poland.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

So Kelly described him as an intelligent, well-educated, and emotionally unstable.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Frank had been involved in the Nazi movement since his early days, participating participating in the Beer Hall Pooch in 1923 before becoming one of Hitler's legal advisors.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

After the Nazis gained power, he um helped reshape German law to serve the regime. Okay. In 1939, Frank was placed in charge of occupied Poland, where his administration oversaw widespread persecution, deportations, and mass murder. Approximately three million Polish Jews were murdered during the German occupation. Wow. Kelly found Frank extremely emotional, often crying during interviews and express expressing anger towards Hitler. Sure. He claimed that he had tried to resign from his positions and increasingly presented himself as someone who regretted his involvement.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Okay. I'm just gonna say to resign. Thank you for you didn't try. Yeah. Because you know why I know that? Because you didn't. Yeah. And you can't tell, well, Hitler is very convincing. Well, no shit. Look what he fucking did. But you did not try. Yeah. You're just saying this at the most opportune time to say I tried to resign. Because I'm sorry, if you tried, you would have just fucking done it.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

But while also quote unquote trying, he also turned to religion, becoming a Catholic while imprisoned and speaking openly about his sins, although Kelly was not convinced.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

That that's a fucking ploy.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

His he suspected that Frank's repentance might have been another way of making himself feel important rather than seeing himself simply as a criminal. Frank could now see himself as a sinner accepting punishment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Frank was executed on October 16th, 1946.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

There's a pattern developing hell.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Next, we have two lawyers. Oh shit. Wilhelm Frick.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Wilhelm with a W.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Wilhelm Frick served as Germany's Minister of the Interior and played an important role in creating the legal framework of the Nazi dictatorship, including laws that stripped Jewish people of their rights.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Kelly described him he was a pretty shitty person. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

No, you're fine. Kelly described him as a polite and respectable on the surface, but cold, ambitious, and unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions. Weird. I know. I had no idea that was coming.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Imagine that.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Frick argued that he had merely helped write laws and wasn't responsible for how they were carried out. I just wrote it down.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

I scribed it on a paper? It just happened.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Oh, that was excellent. Bravo. Yeah. Kelly didn't find that explanation particularly convincing considering Frick understood what those laws were intended to publish.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

I am so happy to hear he didn't find it convincing because, you know, we we killed the Jews. And then I just wrote it down. I just wrote it down. And then it happened. I don't know how I don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Stop.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

To Kelly, Frick demonstrated how someone could appear to be an ordinary government administrator while helping establish an extraordinary, extraordinarily cruel political system. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

It's like, dude, you knew exactly what the fuck you were doing. You can't tell me otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Frick was executed on October 16th, 1946. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Next we have Arthur.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Sorry to interrupt. So October 6, these it took a year. Like because they he examined them for five months and they went on trial. So this literally happened like a year later. It was all in 46. For the execution.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

In 46.

SPEAKER_04 51:17

I mean, you think about it, that's a year and six months.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Almost six months after Hitler died. It's like, that's crazy to think it took that fucking long. But I mean, yeah, I get it. You know, trials, everything. So five months of examination, so on whatever. Just you don't think of it like in that context as like done.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah. Nope. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

It's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

So next we have Arthur Zeiss Ingvaart.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Arthur?

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Arthur.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Uh Zeiss Zeiss Ingvart. And he was an Australian Austrian lawyer who helped facilitate Germany's annexation of Austria in 1938. He later became Reich Reich Commissioner of the Netherlands, where his administration was involved in the persecution and deportation of Dutch Jews and the use of forced labor. Good lord. Kelly found Zeiss Ingvart emotionally distant and convinced that his actions had been necessary for Germany. Even after the war, he seemed more concerned about Germany's defeat than the suffering caused by the policies he had helped enforce.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Because he had national pride.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Now remember, in the Fuhrerbugger, Hitler removed Joachim von Reibentrop from his position as foreign minister and named Arthur Zeiss Ingvart in his replacement. That's right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Zeiss Ingvart was executed on October 16th, 1946. The next two men were involved in managing Nazi Germany's economy. Oh shit. Kelly found their personalities and abilities very different. I bet. So Hallmar Schocht was an accomplished banker and economist who served as president of the Reich Bank.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

Come on, geese. Move on. Go back to Canada. That is so funny. That must be a big, pretty big flock flying by. Yeah. I wonder if it's gonna pick it up, I would assume, but that's wild. Oh, there they are. The flying V. Mighty Black, am I right?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

So he was president of the Reichsbank and Germany's Minister of Economics. He helped build Germany's economy during the 1930s and played an important role in financing re-armament. Rearmament, which is equipping military forces with a new supply of weapons.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Equipping?

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Equipping. Although he eventually clashed with Hitler over economic policies and military spending.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

Did that fall him out of favor with Hitler then? Because that seemed to work for lots of other people.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

I know.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

Or fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

So Kelly considered Schacht highly intelligent, sophisticated, and somewhat arrogant.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

At Nuremberg, Schacht insisted that he had worked with the Nazis to restore Germany's economy rather than because he supported their ideology. He also pointed out that he had been imprisoned following the failed assassination attempt against Hitler in 1944.

SPEAKER_04 54:31

Operation Valkyrie.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Valkyrie, despite not being directly involved in the plot.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

We still have to watch that. That's another one that I've purchased with Tom Cruise that I've never watched. We gotta watch that one one of these days.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

He had connections who opposed Hitler.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

And the assassination attempt gave the regime an excuse to round up suspected opponents. Sure. So even if they weren't involved in the plot, they're like, well, this guy's against us. Let's just pull him in.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

Like we saw you look that way.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

You're coming in. Uh you wrote a letter once. I mean, literally. Yeah. No idea, but you're coming in.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

So Schacht spent the remaining months of the war in Nazi custody until Allied forces liberated him in 1945.

SPEAKER_04 55:17

Isn't it weird to say that they liberated him?

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Well, just hold on a minute. Because I've got a little.

SPEAKER_04 55:22

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Kelly questioned how much responsibility Schacht was willing to accept for helping Hitler gain power, but Schacht was ultimately acquitted at Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

Schocht was Schocked?

SPEAKER_00 55:34

So in 1946, he was acquitted at the International Nuremberg trial.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

In 47, he was found responsible for a mate as a major offender by a German denification court and sentenced to eight years. But then in 48, so 4647, 48, he successfully appealed and released was released.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

Wow, really?

SPEAKER_00 55:58

And then because I had to turn the page, I didn't see it originally. In 1950, he was acquitted in a later German denazification proceeding.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

Really? So he was just straight up, I'm innocent, bro. Shocked. Wow, that's wild. How long did he live, Dill? 93. Holy fuck! I was 14, maybe 13, depending on when he died.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

1970. What? He he died in 1970.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

Why'd you say 93?

SPEAKER_00 56:33

He was 93 years old. Oh I'm sorry. Did you I'm sorry, he's 93 years old. Wow. But he died in 1970. Sorry. I'm so sorry. I was just so happy that I had the information.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

And then and then I just fucked it up.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

And then I just fucked it up.

SPEAKER_04 56:49

Because you're like 93? I'm like, holy shit, you live a long fucking time.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

He was 93 years old.

SPEAKER_04 56:56

That makes way more sense. So I was negative nine.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

It's like the time you were asking, what does this thing on the menu say? And I was like, this other thing means not letting us. That's great. That's not more like question.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

Well, literally not what I was asking. That's cool. Jesus. Thanks for that. Okay, so he was he died in 1970. Yes. He was 93. Yes. So he was born in what? Fucking find out. 77. Of what century?

SPEAKER_00 57:25

77 of the 20th century. No, 19th.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

19th century. 1977.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Okay. Volter.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

Volter? Funk. Funk? Like F-U-N-K? Uh-huh. We've got the funk.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Volter the funk.

SPEAKER_04 57:44

Volter the funk. Gotta get the funk.

unknown 57:49

Gotta get the funk.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

I mean, that's a pretty great name.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

So Volter Funk succeeded shocked as Minister of Economics.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

Do you think he was shocked that he did?

SPEAKER_00 58:04

He later became president of the Reichsbank.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

Reichsbank. Everything was the Reichs.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Although Kelly wasn't nearly impressed with him. He described Funk as physically unhealthy, emotionally weak, and lacking the intelligence and judgment expected of someone in such an important position.

SPEAKER_04 58:25

Do you think he was placed there because he was in good favor with a certain fear?

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Potentially.

SPEAKER_04 58:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Um, he was also interested in astrology and apparently believed he'd been born under a particularly favorable arrangement of the planets.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

Well, Mars is in retrograde.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

We should probably Kelly felt that Funk had risen through the Nazi government largely because he making up for his name was Funk.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Kelly felt that funk. It's like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Kelly felt that Funk had risen through the Nazi government largely because he was willing to follow the instructions of more powerful men rather than make independent decisions. Funk was sentenced to life imprisonment, although he was released in 1957 because of poor.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

Poor health. Fuck that funk.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Fuck that funk. So he died in 1960. I don't have a uh age.

SPEAKER_04 59:23

Or a reason? Um failing health, is all we know. Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't like he died of no ulcer califer colitis, whatever the fucking ulcer ulcerative colitis. Yeah. All those stupid fucking stupid shit we see on. I am so sad the brewers are done. But the channel we watched them on had so many pharmaceutical fucking commercials. It's like, oh, I got a rash. People look at me differently. No, no one looks at you differently. You look at yourself differently in the fucking mirror. Fuck off.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

The next two people were involved in keeping Germany's wartime economy functioning, particularly through industrial production and the use of forced labor. Okay. So we have Albert Speer. He was originally Hitler's architect designing the enormous buildings and monuments that appealed to Hitler's vision of Nazi Germany.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

Was he the one that was going to do the his um art gallery museum or whatever it was? Was he what was that? That came from the dubs.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Um I didn't read that about him.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

What do they call it? It was the it wasn't the Hitler Museum, was it? Is that literally what they called it? Oh, I don't remember. Either way. All right, anyways. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, because he like he Hitler was a failed artist. He was, and he liked art. So I mean, good on you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

So in 1942, Speer became minister of armaments and war production, where he helped organize Germany's wartime manufacturing, including industries that relied on forced labor.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

So basically it's like we need tanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:11

More tanks, please.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Kelly found Speer intelligent, creative, and more willing to acknowledge responsibility than any other prisoner. Really? Interesting. At Nuremberg, Speer um admitted that he had helped sustain Germany's war front and accepted responsibility for forced labor within his ministry.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

However, Kelly believed Speer had become so focused on doing his job successfully that he avoided thinking seriously about the circ suffering involved.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Rather than questioning his uh morality of what he was doing, Speer had concentrated on making the system work as effectively as possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Speer was sentenced to 20 years in prison and released in 1966.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

So at least he spent his 20 years in prison.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Um he died in 1981. Jesus Christ, I was talking from a stroke.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:05

I feel like he got off easy. I mean, yeah, he spent 20 years in prison, but fuck you, should have been life. You should have stroked out in fucking prison, you piece of shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Yeah, I mean, at least it was the full 20.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

Okay. I will give the credit there. Credit there because Oh, your health is failing. You only you're supposed to speed life in prison. We'll only give you 10 years. At least he's you were sentenced to 20, he spent fucking 20. Yeah, he lived a few years afterwards, but yeah. Yeah, I guess at least he served his fucking sentence. Yeah. Probably didn't learn though.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

Next we have Fritz Zaukel. Fritz. Mm-hmm. He was responsible for supplying workers to Germany's wartime industries, a system that involved the forced deportation and exploitation of millions of people from occupied territories. Yeah. Kelly described um Zaukel as intellectually limited, emotionally immature, and extremely devoted to Hitler.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

So he was like a child blindly following Hitler, more or less.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Except for an adult, but yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

Right, right, right. But more like the mindset is what I'm saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

At Nuremberg, um, Zaukel repeatedly insisted that he had simply provided workers and wasn't responsible for how individual employers treated them.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:30

Okay. That's just like really, dude. I I just gave them to him. I didn't know they didn't do anything. I didn't know they were gonna kill them. I didn't know they were gonna be cruel to him. I just said, here's some work-ups, yeah. And they fucking killed him. I didn't know. But here's more workers to replace them. Oh, oh, you killed your last 300 workers I gave you? I'll give you more.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

So Kelly found this reasoning absurd because the entire labor system depending on forcing people to work against their will, which is called slavery. What made Zelkel um particularly unusual was that he even seemed to enjoy the importance of being tied alongside more prominent Nazi leaders.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

It was all about status. That's what the majority of these people they had their qualities that were suited for that, obviously, and their roles, but they're like, oh, Hitler likes me.

unknown 1:04:28

I like Hitler very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

So uh Kel Kelly believes uh Zaukel's loyalty to Hitler and desire for recognition had overwhelmed whatever judgment he possessed, or even overshadowed or whatever, but yeah. Zaukel was executed on October 16th, 1946.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

I'm getting this.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Many of these 22 men were educated professionals, lawyers, military officers, businessmen, and government officials. They had

Kelly’s Warning About America

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

families, they had successful careers and backgrounds that might have seemed perfectly respectable before the war.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:04

And former war heroes for more importantly, even though they lost that one too, because they suck.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yet they helped create and maintain a government responsible for millions of deaths.

unknown 1:05:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Millions of deaths. Kelly had hoped to discover some psychological abnormality that separated Nazi leaders from everyone else. But the more he studied them, the harder it became to identify one explanation that applied to them all.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:32

Because unfortunately, I understand what Kelly was going for.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Let's find it's almost like let's find the gene exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:43

Let's find the the traits or name your thing here that a lot of people possess. Let's eliminate that because this will never happen again. Unfortunately, humans are fucking flawed. Yeah. And they're fucking sheep when. It suits them.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:02

The smartest fucking person to the dumbest fucking follower. I got you. I got you, man. Let's do this. And it's very evident in today's culture with fucking social media, which do I partake in some of it? Sure. Because I like watching dumb videos. They're like right now my fucking scroll is all fucking brilliant, which I fucking love. But the problem is I want to fit in. Oh, you liked what I said there? That makes me feel more important, more whatever. And that's that's what that was pre-social media. But now it's fucking mirroring that in a weird kind of parallel. And it's fucking ridiculous. All they wanted was to be like seen by the Fuhrer or by their peers in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:57

And again, a lot of them denounced, a lot of them backed it. They didn't care. They were all about Germany. There's nothing wrong with national pride. As long as you're not fucking exterminating millions of fucking people. It's okay to believe in your country. It's I think it's a fucking great thing that we have lost. But don't fucking murder people. Weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

It's pretty simple.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:25

I mean, it's pretty straight fucking forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

So what left Kelly rather uncomfortable was the possibility that what if these men weren't fundamentally different from ordinary people? Correct. And what did that mean for the chances of something like Nazi Germany happening again?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

So could something like Nazi Germany happen in the United States? Yeah, it's currently going on. And his answer was that Americans should shouldn't be so quick to assume it couldn't. Right. Kelly argued in the 1940s that the men he studied weren't all psychologically unusual. No. He believed America had its own versions of the ambitious politicians, ruthless businessmen, persuasive propagandists, and fanatical followers who had helped Hitler gain power. Correct. The difference was that Germany had provided an environment where those personalities could gain enormous influence. He was particularly concerned about racism and prejudice in America, pointing out that some of the same racial ideas promoted by the Nazis could also be found in American society. He even noted how easily people could be persuaded by emotional speeches, especially when those speeches blamed particular groups for the country's problems. Right. One example Kelly discussed as Hitler's early political strategy. Rather than trying to take over all of Germany at once, Hitler concentrated on gaining control of smaller areas, building support through speeches and propaganda before expanding his influence.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Yeah, he would. Let's take over this one tonight. This park looks good. Let's take over that tomorrow. And then fucking grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And that's all it was is growing that fucking movement.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Kelly warned that a similar movement could potentially develop within an American democracy if enough people became indifferent to what was happening around them. Yep. But Kelly didn't believe another Nazi-style dictatorship was inevitable. He argued that Americans could protect themselves by taking democracy seriously, particularly through voting, rejecting racial prejudice, questioning emotionally charged political speeches, and teaching children how to think critically rather than simply accepting what they're told. What makes this particularly interesting is that Kelly wasn't writing decades later with the benefit of hindsight. He published in 1947, when the destruction of Nazi Germany was still fresh in everyone's minds. Exactly. After spending months examining the men who helped Hitler build his dictatorship, Kelly had reached a conclusion that was probably more unsettling than discovering that they were all insane. The danger wasn't limited to Germany and it wasn't limited to a particular type of person.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

Under the right circumstances, Kelly believed the same patterns could develop somewhere else. Anywhere. And that is Dr. Douglas Kelly's book, The 22 Cells in Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:41

A fascinating, fascinating subject.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

It really is.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:46

Um, because it's not just, hey, you did this, Nazi guy. It's the psychology behind it. Yeah. That he tried to uncover and and and put out into the world. Where and ultimately, I don't want to say failed because I don't think that's the right word, but he he realized this can happen anywhere. I mean, if you you look at our country now, Charlie Kirk wasn't assassinated because he was trying to imprison a certain group, it's because someone disagreed with him. Um whether you're Republican or Democrat, doesn't matter. It's so divided today, and that's what it was back then. Like, that's what Hitler really did, is he divided people, like you're on my side or not, and he got so many people that oh yeah, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm not saying this same thing's gonna happen today, god forbid. I'm just saying it's really fucking weird how we have so many people kind of mirroring that same mentality. I know, but luckily, again, we're history buffoons, we learn from the past.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

We have the benefit of hindsight, exactly. But people get caught up in weird shit, and they can remove themselves far enough to not remember what happened in the past, correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:14

And you get so many people that are like they don't like history like we do, and they're like, Why are you behind that? Not looking into anything that happened in the past, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

What patterns has this happen happened before?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:28

Right, and it's like, hey, how about you do a little research? But they're like, no, I'm just good with seeing what's in front of my face because that's what social media is. Yeah, hold on while I fucking doom scroll. Yeah, and it's like, no, how about you not do that and fucking look at the broader picture? Yeah, and it's sad that so many people don't want to do that because that's a little work, and it's like fuck off, yeah, just do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

Can I just be told what to do?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:57

And that's what a lot of people want. It's just to be told what to do. It's like, no, think for your fucking self, man. Yeah, it's so stupid, and that's why I hate politics, because so many people are like, I am on this side, and that's what it is. What they tell me. No room for argument or it's not even argument, no room for conversation, no, and I fucking hate that because I am probably one side compared to the other, but the way I see my personality and everything that I believe in is I like that, I can behind that. Why do I have to be one side? Yeah, and you all the way back to you know, Lincoln, who was the first Republican president, and whatever. And again, I'm not picking a side by saying that, I'm just saying, hey, let's have a fucking discussion. Yeah, there are positives on either side, there's and people just miss that discourse, and and like you you get certain people, and I won't mention any in particular, very close to me, we'll just say that, that are like, oh well, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. It's like, dude, okay, I get you don't like him. That's fine. But you can't tell me your side is also it's like let's why can't we have a la carte? Seriously. I like this. Let's fucking put them together and make a great fucking country. But no, we have so much division, like Germany did, they're like, hey, fuck them Jews. Yeah, Hitler, let's do no. No why can't we just all get along? Choose kindness. Fucking Rodney King was a fucking prophet. I'm just kidding. He was weird. I don't even know much about him, to be honest. Okay, so you understand what I'm saying. Um like sorry, I kind of went off on a tangent. Boil it down. There's good and bad on both sides.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

Oh, for sure. You can't there's good and bad people on both sides. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

There's a lot of bad people in politics in our country. It's like, hey, I I work for the government, but I'm gonna get fucking rich off the fucking poor people, which is us. Like, there's that's bullshit. Person who makes $174,000 a year, but all of a sudden it's worth millions? Nancy Pelosi? What the fuck? Seriously, I will call her out. There's literally an app that follows her fucking stock, whatever investment, because she inside her trades all the fucking time. Uh why would there be an app for that if that wasn't for my point? Is the government is supposed to work for the people. Yeah, the people aren't supposed to work for the government, and we've gotten away from that a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:58

And there's good sides, there's good things on both sides. Let's put them together and just make a great fucking country again.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

Yeah.

Where To Find The Book And Farewell

SPEAKER_04 1:16:05

But no, case gotta be.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

I wanted to um remind um everyone that I mentioned in the first episode, um, part one, that the book 22 Cells in Nuremberg by Dr. Douglas Kelly is available online at archive.org.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

Notgov.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:25

Not gov.archive.org. Um, it's a quick, easy read, and I hope you all enjoyed um the more psychological in-depth in-depth viewing of these men.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:40

I will be honest, I really enjoyed this. This this was very fascinating because I just super fascinating. Again, we watched the movie, it it delved a little bit into more obviously Goering because he was the main figure. Yeah, but like knowing that there is so much more into it is is is fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Yeah, but I And now I want to like rewatch it now that I know who these men are. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:04

Maybe we'll have to just re-watch it since we did the episode. We watched it once before. We'll rewatch it again and hopefully in the near future.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:10

Yeah, but highly recommend the movie Nuremberg with Rami Malik. Is that how you pronounce it?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:14

Rami Malik. Malik. That's how I know it. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

And Russell Crowe.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:19

Russell Crowe, two the two main guys in it. But there's uh there's some other people in it too. But um those other two real main people, but it's all I'm gonna say now is well, Kate's gotta pee. Her knees are just going fucking nuts.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:33

I had three beers. Welp, I suppose. I'm just gonna answer for you. She had two. I had I had one in the first episode. It's the same ones. No, I threw one away. I had three. I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:51

All right, buffoons. That's it for today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:06

Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:20

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:25

Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

Remember, the buffoonery never stops.