The Origin of Weird: The Anti Pope Schism

0:00 It's it's okay then. Why have you been so quiet lately when you say that? Oh hey there. There it is. Oh hey there. All right. Nathan's sleeping in the other room. I know he's taking a nap because he just went out hunting this morning and got two deer for hunting season. That was his goal. So huzzah. One done. One and done. More venison for you guys to add to your plethora of venison that you have.

0:40 Yeah. So that's why I was quiet. Oh, I get it. But I also feel like not my fault. Just kidding. Uh oh, hey there. How are you? I am well. This is the History Buffoons. How are you? I'm good. I am Kate. And I am Bradley. Yeah. It's felt like we took a long time to get to History Buffons. We really did. But here we are. This is the origin of Weird. Yes. And um I am kind of trailing off of a previous episode that we did. Uh Origin or Um, no, I think it was um was it Origin? I don't remember. If you tell me, I could probably tell you. It was about anti-popes.

1:23 And the Western Shism. Schism? Schism. Schism. Shazam. Shazam, you got schism. Was that John of Neppamuk? When we briefly talked about antipopes. I don't know, I don't remember. Yeah. Is it? I know we talked about like the West Western Schism. Schism. Do you want to know something? What? That is a fantastic tool song. Schism. Schism. Oh, it's so good. They're so fucking amazing. Okay, so we're gonna talk about one in particular. Um, anti anti po anti poop. Okay. Anti poop. There's a Primus album called Antipop.

2:04 You were weird. Thank you. So for most of the Middle Ages, yeah, people like to believe that Christendom, um, their stability flowed downwards from a single source, and that was Saint Peter. Right. And his successor. Yeah. Um, he was also called the Bishop of Rome, um, or of course, the Pope. Right. Okay. Did you know Saint Peter was crucified upside down? I think I did hear that, yeah. Yeah. So in theory, one man would carry the spiritual authority to guide kings, crown emperors, and settle disputes that were far beyond Vatican walls.

2:44 And you know, Vatican is like the smallest country. Yeah. In practice, things were a lot messier. Of course, because people. Yes. So the papacy sat on top of a ton of politics and rivalries and ambitions. And every so often the church would come up with a few extra popes. Got a plethora of popes. Yeah, they're like rival popes or like backup popes. Backup popes. Like backup dancers, but popes. It's like Pope John the First, get in there. Yeah. This guy's arm is weak. It's like fucking baseball, and they're replacing the Pope. And it's but of course, the Pope who there are popes who also refuse the acknowledgement of other popes.

3:28 Of course, because I'm the I'm the true successor. The one true Pope. Yeah. And because they wanted the power. I mean, especially back then. It's all about God and church and stuff. But again, I am not religious, so this is my viewpoint on it. They wanted that power. Yeah. Because there were some pretty shady fucking popes. There were. So, I mean, all in the name of God, but so as I said before, we call these extra popes antipopes. Yes. Um, but in their own day, each one swore, scouts, honor, and all, that he was the true heir to Saint Peter's throne. Sure. So behind each pope antipope was a network of kings and noble houses who c saw clear advantages in supporting a certain pope.

4:12 It's funny, every time you say Saint Peter, I just think upon this rock I will build my church. And I'm just picturing Ultron saying it. From the Avengers. Oh. Sorry. So antipopes tended to appear whenever whenever the papacy got tangled up with secular power, which was fairly often. Sure. To medieval rulers, a pope wasn't just a spiritual leader, he was also like a geopolitical jackpot. Geopolitical jackpot. A pope in your corner could strengthen a dynasty, undermine an enemy, sanction a war, oh yeah, or decide whether a marriage stood or collapsed. Weird. We've talked about that.

4:53 So when a king or emperor found the current pope uncooperative, it was tempting to promote a rival pontiff and call him the real deal. Yep. So the 11th and 12th centuries were especially crowded with these disputes. Okay. Popes and emperors clashed clashed over who got to appoint bishops, who had the power to crown whom, and whether the Holy Roman Emperor um outranked the Pope or vice versa. Right. So there was such a thing called the investiture controversy. Never heard of that, okay? It produced a standoff that emperors created their own popes, and popes encouraged uprisings against emperors.

5:35 Wow. So it was kind of a like a medieval showdown between popes and the Holy Roman Empire over who gets to appoint bishops. Okay. Okay. Bishops held land and power, so the emperors wanted control. Popes argued only the church could choose its own leaders. Right. Um, so this kind of spiraled into excommunications and political chaos and more anti-popes. Quite the schism. Schism. So Europe ended with not just a pair, but a parade of competing pontiffs. Okay. Each one with his own court, his own followers, and his own papal seals, insisting he was absolutely legitimate. So, I mean, if you where do these people sit?

6:17 Because only one can occupy the Vatican. Right, yeah. So I feel like the one that's there should be the full community. I mean, right? Yes. So I actually do um have some places where they have gone to. So do they have like Vatican II? That'd be funny. That would be kind of funny. But no. I know, but it just would be funny. So earlier battles looked fairly tidy compared to what was happening in the 14th century. This was when the papacy papacy had banned in Rome for Avignon. Avignon in France. For nearly 70 years, the Pope lived not in the ancient seat of St.

6:59 Peter, but in a grand palace closer to French influence rather than Roman influence. Was this Pope that lived there French? Um, I don't yes. I don't, yes. I think so. Okay. I think so. I mean, it would make sense why he would be in France if he's French and he's like, I'm gonna get more support over here. Yeah, I I don't remember if I wrote that down or not. That's okay. So the papacy left Rome for Avignon because Rome had become like practically ungovernable and dangerous, while France offered more stability, protection, and political pressure that popes could hardly refuse.

7:40 So for sure. A few factors drove the move. Rome was in political meltdown, rival noble families fought in the streets, the city was violent, unstable, and the pope's safety was never guaranteed. Yeah, they didn't have the Pope Mobile back then with the doll. Uh the French crown held enormous influence. Yep. Um, Pope Clement V, which who was elected in 1305, was heavily pressured by King Philip IV of France. I've heard of Pope Clement, yeah. And he wanted a compliant papacy. Sure. So standing close to the French court made that easier. And then Avignon was safer, wealthier, and had better administration.

8:22 Sure. Um, it was part of the papal territories, well fortified and far more comfortable than what Rome was experiencing. Gotcha. So there was Gregory the 11th. Okay. He was the last of the Avignon popes, and he actually brought the paper. So they were out there for what I say. A few years, yeah. Yeah, it was a few years. I guess I don't remember the years. Yeah, I think I wrote it down somewhere. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't I don't remember. Well, has become a Christian. It was less than a hundred years. I know that. So quite a long time though. Yeah, I think it was a couple decades. Wow. I think. Still surprised it was that long.

9:04 Um, so Gregory the 11th um brought the papacy back to Rome in 1377. Gotcha. So um what did I say? Clement Pope Clement V, he was elected in 1305. Okay. Um Avignon. So 72 years, roughly. Okay. Okay. My computer's acting funny. Okay. So, like I said, uh Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome in 1377. Okay. Avignon had become a political trap, and the church's credibility was suffering. So he knew that as long as papacy stayed in France, people would see him as a French puppet.

9:45 Right. Um, on top of that, Italy was falling into chaos, and without papal leadership, rival factions were tearing cities apart, and Rome itself was begging for the Pope's return to restore order and prestige. Right. So everyone agreed the papacy needed to be restored, but no one agreed on what that restoration would look like. I find it funny every time you say papacy, you say papist fee. Papacy? No, you say papist fee. But I know it's papacy. I know, but you're saying it funny. Sorry. Just would like to point that out. All right, so it's back in Rome.

10:26 Yes, so Gregory the 11th brought back the papacy to Rome and then he died. Oh, like he walked into Rome, we're back. It was close. Yeah, it was fairly close. Um, he died of natural causes. Sure. He was, I mean, probably pretty old. Yeah, exactly. So especially for that time. Yeah. 45, I mean. So the moment conclave opened in Rome, the whole city felt like it was about to explode. Romans were terrified, the cardinals, many of them French, would choose yet another French pope and haul the papacy back to Avignon. I love that. Thank you. So crowds gathered outside the building shouting for an Italian and making it very clear what outcome they expected.

11:12 So the pressure for the cardinals was really overwhelming. So with shouts echoing outside and fists pounding on doors, literally, the anxious cardinals completely aware of what was happening around them. For sure, yeah, yeah. Chose, excuse me, Bartolomeo. Bartolomeo. Bartolomeo? Pregnan. Wow. This is Italian looking as they. He likes pasta. Um, he became Urban the Sixth. Urban? Yes. There were six Urbans. I've never heard of Pope Urban before. Yeah. That's wild. Okay. So the crowd loved it. For a brief moment, Rome felt restored.

11:55 Sure. But that didn't last long. Say what happened after that. Urban the Sixth quickly managed to alienate many of the very men who had elevated him. He was naturally stern and never shy about his opinions. He called out the Cardinals for their spending, their behavior, and the comfortable lifestyle that they were getting used to. Sure. So his reforms might have had merit, but he delivered them poorly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the cardinals took offense of that. Well, yeah, because they were enjoying their lifestyle and being like, this is comfy, man. Comfy living. We don't gotta do much. We gotta say, bless you, be with God, and then we get a bunch of money and live in these lavish fucking estates and shit.

12:39 So they didn't want to fucking lose that. Yeah. So feeling insulted and cornered, they slipped out of Rome and insisted the election had been invalid, forced by the mob's intimidation rather than their own free will. Oh boy. As in they were coerced. Yeah. So what did they do? They elected another pope. Anti-pope. Robert of Geneva, who took the name Clement the Seventh. Okay. Okay. He established Clement the Fifth is the one that was in 1305. So there was a six in there somewhere. Gotcha. Yeah. For some reason, because Gregory the whatever brought it back. 11th, yeah.

13:20 Okay. I for some reason my mind went to Clement V brought it back, and I'm like, no, that's not right. Because I'm like, where did six go? But okay, my bad. So they elect Robert of Geneva, Clement the Seventh, and he established his court back in Avignon. And just like that, Europe had two popes, one in Rome and one in France. And of course, they both said that they were the rightful heir to St. Peter's throne. I feel like the one in Avignon is not because he's not on St. Peter's throne. Just saying. Of course, nations laid um lined up behind their preferred pontiff. Well, yeah, which hey, uh I'm sorry, Urban, right? Urban the Sixth.

14:00 Urban the Sixth will let me do this. We're backing him and then Pope. I'm sorry, what was the other guy's name? Clement the Seventh. Seventh. Seventh, yeah. So um Yeah, I can see how they would be like, which one's gonna benefit me better? Yeah. I'm gonna back that one. And obviously I'm sure France backed the the one in France better because he's fucking there, kind of thing. But that's wild. So England was hostile to France, so they supported Urban in Rome. Yeah. France threw their weight behind Clement and Avignon. Scotland Clement's in in Rome, Urban's in Avignon. Vice versa. I could have sworn you just said it the other way.

14:41 No, Clem uh Clement the Seventh went to Avignon. Okay. I got confused. Clement the Seventh went to Avignon. Gotcha. So Scotland, Castile, Aragon, which is in Spain, um, and others followed Avignon. That's where Catherine's from. The Holy Roman Empire um and many Italian states sided with Rome. Okay. So the Western Schism. Schism. Schism. You had it right. And then you butchered it. Wow. So among those who supported Clement the Seventh was a gifted, intense, and deeply principled canon lawyer named Pedro de Luna.

15:27 Okay. He was born around 1328. Um, and he came from an old noble family um during the Crown of Aragon. Okay. That's all I think of when I say that. I know every time. That's why like Catherine of Aragon is like either from Lord of the Rings or a big spider. Yeah. So um he his family was marked by the crescent moon on their coat of arms, hence his last name, De Luna. Oh, sure. So he studied at the University of Montpelier, where he became a highly respected teacher of canon law. He was known for his discipline and personal austerity. Pedro was admired for his unwavering um commitment to principle.

16:12 Okay. When Gregory the Eleventh made him cardinal in 1375, one of the final opponent um appointments before the papacy's return to Rome. And Gregory died. Pedro quickly became an influential figure. So in Avignon, he emerged as one of the court's most loyal defenders and one of Clement the Seventh's most capable diplomats. Gotcha. Okay. Clement the Seventh died in 1394. Okay. And the Avignon cardinals gathered once again to select a successor. And they were worn down by this schism. Did I say that right?

16:53 Yes. Good job. Me. They were embarrassed by the div division of it, and they wanted to restore unity. So they agreed that whoever they chose had to be committed to healing the rift, even if that meant resigning for the greater good. Right. So they wanted steadiness and unquestionable integrity. So they chose Pedro de Luna, who became Benedict the Thirteenth. Okay. Yes, 13th. Roman numerals, am I right? Yep. Got him on my arm. So for a more moment, it genuinely looked like the Avignon Cardinals had chosen well.

17:35 Benedict the Thirteenth had a reputation for integrity, sharp intellect, and unwavering commitment to what he believed was right. So, but that same unshakable conviction became the heart of his coming disaster. Once he became Pope, he simply could not imagine any path to healing the schism that required him to step aside. So he got that power and he's like, fuck this, I'm not giving it up. In his mind, a true pope didn't resign. But you're not a true pope. But he didn't think that. No, he thought he was the true pope and the other guy was the imposter. So at first his position was strong. France, Scotland, Castile, Aragon, Sicily all recognized him.

18:20 But as the years passed, patients started wearing thin. Kings grew frustrated. Theologians worried about um spiritual fallout, and Europe um groaned under dispute that no one could justify anymore. Okay. So French universities spoke openly about the harm the schism was doing and arguing that divided leadership endangered the entire church. Sure. Duh. I mean, you can't have a uh unity with such a fucking clusterfuck going on. Seriously. So yeah, it's gonna damage it. And people are gonna be like, well, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Why am I falling? Right. So diplomats pleaded with Benedict to consider resign resignation for the sake of unity.

19:03 Um, but in 1398, France withdrew obedience altogether, and that blow um, excuse me, and the blow that followed was even worse. His own cardinals started walking away. Oh boy. So, or under orders from the French crown, troops surrounded the papal palace in Avignon, essentially placing Benedict under guard. One by one, cardinals who had stood behind him once before had slipped out, distancing themselves for what they saw was kind of like a hopeless cause. Yep. Out of 23, only five remained. Oh, Jesus. The rest joined the call for him to resign for the good of the church.

19:44 Right. So, but anyone who thought this pressure would make Benedict the Thirteenth full didn't understand Pedro de Luna. He's like, fuck your couch. I am Pope. Through years of siege, uh, years in which his influence shrank, his isolation deepened, and his dignity was constantly tested, he refused to budge. He believed completely and without hesitation that he alone upheld God's lawful order. Oh good lord. So yielding to political force was in his eyes inconceivable. Inconceivable. I don't think you're using that word right. You don't think so? It's from a movie.

20:24 Oh, is that the follow-up? Yes. Princess Bride? Yes. Cool. I've only seen it once. Really? Yeah. Maybe twice. I guess I know what movie we're gonna watch soon. So by 1403, the blockade outside the palace had weakened. Yeah. The French political situation shifted. Some local commanders became less vigilant, and the siege simply wasn't uh maintained with the same intensity it once had. Now they're like, eh. I'm getting tired. I'll throw a grape at you and walk away. Yeah. So sensing the change he had been waiting for, Benedict the Thirteenth quietly coordinated his remaining like five allies. That's not a lot of allies.

21:05 One night taking advantage of the lax guard and under the cover of darkness, he slipped out through a concealed passage, and um with the help of his loyal followers, he escaped Avignon entirely and made his way to territories more sympathetic to him. Oh, like where? So this is when I think he went to um Spain. Oh, okay. So he wasted no time reasserting control. Supporters had grown uneasy or ambivalent, suddenly saw him as a man who couldn't be intimidated into resignation. Um he re-entered Avignon not as a captive but as a defiant pontiff reclaiming his position.

21:49 So he tried to come back. Right. And it transformed him into a symbol to his followers, a pope wronged, but unbroken. Oh, good lord. To his critics, living proof that no amount of pressure could pry him out of the office. He his escape didn't resolve the schism, but it solidified his identity in the eyes of Europe for better or for worse. Meanwhile, Europe tried to fix the mess on their own. Urban. So in 1409, bishops and theologians gather gathered at Pisa. Pisa, yeah. Right. Um, they had a bold plan depose both remaining reigning popes.

22:33 We have Gregory the 12th in Rome, and now we've got Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon. I thought he was Clement. Gregory the Sixth. Yes. He was the last Avignon Pope, and he returned to the papacy to Rome. Correct. Okay. And then we have right after him was Urban the Sixth of the Roman line. Correct. And he during this time is when there's a revolt and it breaks. Correct. So then we have the Avignon line, which is Clement the Seventh. And then he's the antipope. And then he dies, and then Benedict. Yes, he dies.

23:14 And now again in the Avignon line, we've got Benedict the Thirteenth. Yep. De Luna. Mm-hmm. And then we still have the Roman line. Correct. So the Roman line was um Urban the Sixth. Yep, the first one. Then we have Boniface the Ninth. So Urban died, Urban VI died, Boniface the Ninth, and then we had Innocent the Seventh. Was he innocent though? And then we had Gregory the Seventh. Sorry, Gregory the Twelfth. And that's the one we're at now. Yes, that's where we're at now. I need a fucking charter or something. Jesus Christ. Okay.

23:54 So because I guess we were talking about De Luna this whole time, and I didn't know any of those died. Yeah. So that's that wasn't yeah, that wasn't even part of like the research, but yes, a couple popes died and more were re-elected. That obviously makes sense. I was just super confused because again, I also didn't know the time frames. I know it's really difficult to follow. So much so many popes. We'll try to I'll try to put together like a Yeah, like a list or something. Whatever. Yeah, something like that. Pie chart. Yeah, whatever. 3D graph. Yeah. So yeah, that was confusing. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up. Yeah, you're welcome. All right. So Gregory the So we've got Gregory the Twelfth in Rome.

24:34 That's right. We have Benedict the Thirteenth in Avignon. Now in Aragon. Or wait, that's where he went, right? No, I think he's still in Avignon. But he's escaped. Yeah, he escaped. So yeah, he must be back in Aragon. Because he was going to Spanish. Yeah. So I can't believe you didn't even comment on how I said Spanish. So in 1409, bishops and theologians gathered at Pisa to dispose both the remaining popes. Yeah, Benedict the Thirteenth? Yes, and in Avignon or yeah. Gregory the 12th. Yes, and he's in Rome. Okay. And they elect a new one to unify a Christendom.

25:18 But now there's three. How is that going to unify them? Exactly. So just to give a quick overview. A quick overview. What's a queak overview? A quick overview of what uh what deposing needs. Oh dear. I broke him. Oh my god, a queak. I like queak overviews. Sorry. That was just really funny to me. And I don't know why. All right, continue. So I I'm gonna give a brief overview of what deposing a post is. Deposing a post.

26:00 Words are tough, am I right? I think I need a beer. Oh, I do. Okay, so deposition involves a formal statement explaining why he is no longer recognized. Correct. A withdrawal of obedience from kings, cardinals, and clergy. Okay, and another man elected in its place. So sorry, what was the one they elected the third pope now? His name is Alexander the Fifth. Alexander the Fifth. That's a strong name. Now they have a three pope problem. Do you know what I think they should have done? Built a ring, gladiator style, whatever. Hash it out. Pope it up.

26:40 Yep. Pope up the jam. Wait. So Gregory the 12th refused to step down. Of course he did. Why would he step? He's like, no, dude, I'm the fucking Pope. I'm in Rome. So what the fuck? And then Benedict the Thirteenth insisted as well. He was still Pope. No, because he was a dick. It wouldn't give up power, even though they elected him, saying, hey man, you might have to resign at some point to unify our our Christendom. But you know, he's like, no, I don't. I'm good. So now we've got Gregory XII of the Roman line. Yeah. We have Benedict the Thirteenth of the Avignon line. And we have Alexander the Fifth of the Pisian line. Pisan line. Pisa, right? Meaning Tower of Pisa. Tower of Pisa.

27:21 Pisa. Pisa line. Pisa in line. I like the Pisian line. So Alexander V reigned for only 10 months and then died of natural causes. They need to elect younger popes. And then he was succeeded by John the 23rd. Now there was 23 Johns by that time. Only John 23 happened twice. We actually had one in the late 50s, early 60s. But because the old John the 23rd isn't considered an antipope. Wait, he's not considered so they could do it again? Mm-hmm. They could do it again.

28:02 So we had a 20th century John the 23rd. And a 14th century slash 15th century John the 23rd. That's not confusing. So through all that, Benedict the Thirteenth continued to insist on his legitimacy from southern France and Aragon. So how is are they just like, hey, um the money you collect at church, send it to this address instead of to the one in Rome? Is that like how they did it basically? Because that's how they get funded. Yeah. Right? They're taking their they each have their own bishops and clergy, and yeah, they would go directly to their pope.

28:43 Right. So by 1414, the church realized it needed a more serious solution, and they convened the council of Constance. So they're gonna elect a fourth pope? No, thankfully. Thank God. So the bishops, the theologians, the ambassadors, and representatives from nearly every Christian kingdom created this council. Okay. So where Pisa had kind of improvised, Constance used more structure with broader representation and a more clear determination to end this sh schism. There it is. Okay, so the the Pisian Pope, John the 23rd, tried to flee the council, but was caught and then deposed.

29:28 Okay. Why did he try to flee? I have no idea. I'm like, I don't like this, man. I'm gonna go. No, you gotta fucking get back here, dude. We gotta depose you. Gregory the twelfth um actually volunteered to resign. Good. And that gave this council enormous credibility. Sure. Mm-hmm. And then there was Benedict the Thirteenth, and I'm the Pope, bitch. Yep, he's the Pope. He's the last obstacle. Nope, not gonna do it. Of course not. He he he expressed that from getting office right away, even though he's a On saying, hey, you might have to resign at some point. Yeah. Just saying. Um, I will tell you he's he's a fucking politician. I mean, look at our politics today.

30:09 All of the politicians are like, I will run on this and then I will not do a fucking thing about it. Andor go against it. So he's a politician. So high-ranking churchmen and respected ambassador traveled to Benedict's court hoping that respected voices delivered face to face would persuade him to give up his his claim. Do you murder him? No. Oh, thank God. They argued theology, canon law, and the needs of the church, even the practical realities of Europe's situation after decades of division. Benedict rebutted every point. Monarchs who had once supported him, especially the king of Aragon, pressed him to step down.

30:50 Um, count the council drafted formal appeals, uh, theological arguments and legal explanations. They offered compromises, safe retirement, honorary position. He rejected them all. Oh, he wanted to be Pope. But by this point, Benedict the Thirteenth was in his 70s and nothing could budge him. He insisted that he alone had been a legitimate cardinal before the schism began, therefore, he retained the true authority. Yeah, but there was other legitimate cardinals before all that too. So, okay. So when it became clear that he wouldn't back down, the council finally declared him a schismatic.

31:32 Oh. And deposed him in 1417. So they said we don't care what you say. Yeah. Is basically what they said. So I had to look this up because why wouldn't they just declare him deposed anyway? Yeah. Why wait so long? Because I don't know, they're stupid. So they needed the Roman Pope, Gregory the S uh the 12th, to cooperate. And he did. He ended up stepping down. And that's what gave this council the legal backbone it needed. Right. Okay. They also wanted all factions on board. So deposing Benedict the Thirteenth prematurely would have alienated kingdoms that still supported him. Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense.

32:12 They couldn't risk another splinter in the group. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then they also had to handle John the 23rd. Right. The the Pisian Pope fled Constance early on, and the council had to chase him down and depose him. And that actually took a couple months, apparently. I'm sure. I mean, especially back then, yeah. And then um, obviously there was hope that he would actually resign. That didn't happen. Um, and then his legal argument argument was difficult to dismantle. So he claimed that he was the last surviving cardinal from before the schism, meaning that he had the right to make or break popes. Canon lawyers had to work very carefully to dismantle that claim in a way that Europe would accept.

32:56 Sure. So by waiting, they made it indisputable that Benedict was the obstinate one. Yeah. And this helped prevent backlash when they finally deposed him. Gotcha. That makes sense because he was adamant that he's no dude, I'm the Pope, man. Yeah. I don't care what you say. But with doing it the proper way, finally, after a hundred fucking years basically, they uh finally like, yeah, let's do this right and get him out of there. So okay. I'm just now recognizing that when I first talked about Gregory the Twelfth, I might have said Gregory the Seventh, because I was looking at a V Not next.

33:36 I think that's why I got so confused. It was Gregory the Twelfth the whole time. We'll have to we'll have to see if that happened. I'll uh I'll be interested to edit this one. So, okay, so Europe accepted this decision. Martin V was elected pope soon after and widely recognized as the new unified leader of the church. Martin, that seems like a terrible pope name. But Benedict the Thirteenth refused to recognize any of it. So what? One fucking guy, who the fuck cares? I know. He withdrew to the fort fortress of Peniscola of the Aragonese coast of Spain.

34:20 Okay. Um, there is a dramatic like citadel that's still there. Oh, nice. It's it over it's huge and it overlooks the Mediterranean. So he continued to act as quote unquote Pope there. So he issued um these formal papal decrees called papal bulls. Yep. He appointed new cardinals. Um, he sent letters to kings urging urging them to return to the true obedience. Oh, Jesus Christ. His house household grew smaller every year, dwindling to a loyal handful who aged alongside him. Yep. In Rome, Martin V governed a reunited church. Sure. Benedict the Thirteenth presided over a papacy that consisted of a fortress, a few devoted people, sure, and of course his unshakable belief that he is the rightful pope.

35:12 But even though everyone else in the world knows he's not. So some contemporaries didn't couldn't agree on how to judge him. Some saw a man of extraordinary principle, others saw pride masquerading as righteousness. And isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins? Weird. And later historians often settled somewhere in between. A figure whose rigid conscience was both admiral and tragic. Admirable. Yeah. Benedict the Thirteenth died, still convinced that Rome had deserted justice and he had not.

35:53 Okay. On his deathbed, determined to preserve what he believed was the true papal line, he appointed four new cardinals. Oh Jesus. They elected a successor. Clement the Eighth, recognized only in a sliver of Aragon. One of the four cardinals refused to join the vote and elected another pope. This one is called Benedict the Ten Five Four.

36:34 The Fourteenth. Two rival popes within the tiny remnant of Aragon. Wow. Okay, real quick, what happened to Benedict the 14th? Yeah. He had no real following, no recognition, no political support, no influence. Yeah, because he was only elected by one. Yeah, he was illegitimate. Yeah, he fizzled nearly complete uh immediately. Right. So within a few years, Clement VIII reconciled with Martin V and back in Rome, finally snuffing out the last member of the Avignon plank claim. Oh, Jesus. Okay. So especially in Aragon, Pedro de Luna remains far more comp more complicated than the label anti-pope implies.

37:16 He is remembered as El Papa Luna, the mooncrest pope whose iron will outlasted councils, armies, and nearly a century of upheaval. Anti-popes, am I right? Am I right? Jesus Christ. Well, and like, yeah, they can say all that they want, but he was just a stubborn fuck who wouldn't give up his seat because he wasn't the legitimate pope. I know. Even though in his eyes he was. I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm just the way I'm looking at it, he was not the Pope. Because the Pope is in Rome, like that one song said. I can't remember. It was came out in the 90s, but anyways.

37:56 Yeah, I I'm sorry about the uh the number of popes. It got really fucking confusing. It got really confusing, and I I really do think I missed misspoke on that one. Yeah, Gregory the Seventh when I meant the twelfth. Well, maybe when you s if you do say it wrong when I edit, I'll just I'll just randomly edit in like seven. It's supposed to be twelve. You know what I mean. Twelve. I might have to do that because that would be fucking hilarious. Pope Clement the Twelve. Because I'll use my voice because it will be so much better. Wow. Okay, that was that was hard to fall.

38:38 That was confusing. I know I'm so sorry. Um, that was well just say weird. It was weird. Well, I suppose. All right, buffoons. That's it for today's episode. Buckle up because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you next time. Feeling hungry for more buffoonery? Or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore? Hit us up on social media. We're History Buffoons Podcast on YouTube, X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can also email us at history buffoonspodcast at gmail.com. We are Bradley and Kate, music by Corey Akers. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn those notifications on to stay in the loop.

39:19 Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to rate and review us. Remember, the buffoonery never stops.