0:11 oh, hey there hello there, hi kate, hi, how are you today? I'm good, yeah, yeah all right. Well, I'm good, good too. Thanks for asking, oh lord my microphone is full of hair well, because you have five cats and when we were podcasts at your house suction cup, trust me, I'll put my the the podcast bag. We'll call it with all of our equipment. Oh yeah, down in your house and then I'll leave, and I was like did I take a cat with me? did I grab the bag or did I grab a cat? I'm so confused.

0:53 Oh you know, it's like I don't get what's happening right now so I bought a beer. I already know I like yeah, so you got. You got Founders All Day IPA. Yeah, but it's been many, many a month since I've had it. Yeah, and I've only had it once. And I remember you telling me it was a few months back. I don't remember how long, it's been a while. You're like I had this and I really liked it. I'm like oh yeah. I'm not surprised because, again, I know you're not a huge like full on ipa person, like I am right per se, but this is uh founders all day. Ipa is a session ipa what, yeah, what does that mean?

1:37 so it's whenever you see session, especially with when it refers to an ipa. It's a little more toned down, if you will. So the whole, at least being in the beer business, like I used to be, my take on it was literally they want you to drink as many as possible in a session. Sure, oh, in a session Okay. Yeah, it's sessionable, so meaning you can have multiples, and not because like if you had a torpedo you could probably have one. At best you personally. Me. I could drink those all fucking day. I mean, I probably couldn't, I'd probably pass out. But either way, it's meant to be a little bit more kind of like toned back.

2:22 So it's a little bit more drinking more often, I guess so what did you? okay, yeah, what did you pick up? I currently am holding, and I'm about to open, a hard cider from shilling cider house and um, they're based out of, uh, washington state. Hold on, it's nice. Based out of Washington State. Hold on, it's nice. Shall we try it. Yeah, my founder's all-day IPA is from Grand Rapids, michigan. It is. And actually Grand Rapids, coincidentally is in my story a little bit.

3:03 That was unplanned. That's fitting. Yeah, okay, you got your beer. There it is. So what is the abv on a founders? uh, okay, open it. And now you're like what is okay, 4.7, what's yours? mine's almost double. Maybe not not, maybe not quite double, but yes, getting close, mine is 8.4. So mine is an Imperial Apple. It's called Excelsior Imperial Apple, 8.4% from Schilling. Sutter House. Let's give it a go, shall we? I like my IPA. It's delish. That is pretty good. I would never guess that's 8.4.

3:43 It's pretty smooth yeah, and it's not like. I kind of like it because I I like I'm a big, actual, just regular cider, not just the hard cider fan, and um, it's not overly sweet, which is nice. It's got a little bit to it, but no, it's really good. I have a question for you. Can you say it? Not so creepily? I have a question for you. Okay, you, you excelled at making it more creepy. Have you ever ridden on a train before Like a passenger train? Hmm, I want to say yes, but like an actual like well.

4:25 Yeah, I want to say yes, but like an actual like well. Yeah, I've been on a, an amtrak before. Yeah yeah, I've been on an amtrak yeah, it's been a while. I mean a long, long, long while. I don't recall when that would have been, but but yeah, no it's. I have. When I was younger. Yeah, a lot younger Cause Kate just said how old I am. Um so green Bay has this amazing railroad um train museum. Yeah. And it's. I took some pictures there. I'm not a I'm not a great photographer or anything, but some of the pictures that I took of some of the steam engines there I absolutely love. And. I don't, and I criticize my own work, you know I criticize your work too, but yeah, but these images are just so stunning in my mind.

5:13 But the museum itself is fantastic. How long ago did you take those? Oh, it was pre-covid, so probably 18 or 19 fair enough? Well, no, I think it's funny because you had mentioned that same train museum to the wife and because of her dad. Yeah. Her dad is a huge train guy. He loves trains. Old, old, old trains too especially. Yeah. And he likes going to the old museum, especially the. I don't remember the city. Do you remember the city she mentioned in Illinois he likes to go to? They have a train museum. Is it decalb? We're probably wrong or we're probably right. It's hard to say yeah but he lives in in wisconsin so I he probably has gone to the green bay, I would imagine I would imagine he has.

6:01 Yeah, but uh, now he's, he's a big train guy and he loves going to those things. Well, speaking of your wife, Sarah, yes, hi Sarah, hi Sarah, she actually recommended today's story. Yeah, so we had mentioned in previous podcasts. We hope people reach out and give us some ideas that they're interested in, that we can look into and talk about or whatever, and this one came from my wife yeah, and she's lived in. She has lived a couple different places, but yes, she's lived in the south, particularly um, or specifically and um.

6:45 She visited the location that I'm going to talk about, um, and she said that there was some pretty fascinating history about it. So yeah, which is. It's kind of funny, because so normally how we go about these stories is I usually don't know what kate's going to talk about, but because of the recommendation of the story from from sarah yeah, because we were all together when we, when she recommended it um, so I, I, I know of it, but I I don't know anything about it yeah so I'm really fascinated to uh learn some about this, because the little bit that she told me which I think she would have told me more, but didn't want to ruin the story, if you will um, sounds very interesting and very uh horrible messed up yeah, we'll say so she recommended we do um an episode on a particular place, and what I like to do is try to find a human aspect to talk about in relation to a place or an event.

7:47 Correct, so we are going to talk about James Ross Skaden. James Ross Skaden. Yep, okay. So James Ross Skaden. Why are you laughing, Kate? Was born on December 12, 12th, 1843, wow all that time ago in ulysses, new york oh, that's pretty great he had two sisters. Okay, his parents ended up divorcing and his mother, margaret, remarried. Oh, and together they had five children, so Seven all together.

8:32 The mom's new husband her had five more. Okay, wow. And they all lived together. Seven all together, but didn't you say he had two sisters? Yeah, so then they had five more, wouldn't? That be eight. Eight, yeah, okay, didn't you say he had two sisters? Yeah, so then they had five more. Wouldn't that be eight, eight, yeah, okay. So they all lived together in Yankee Springs, Michigan. Yankee, where is that? Michigan, and they were farmers. Where in Michigan is Yankee Springs? Hey, google, where is Yankee Springs? Google, where is yankee springs in michigan? In michigan, it is close to a town called bradley.

9:16 Hey, that's me. Hey, what do you know? not much. That's why we're here trying to learn so it is, um, just south of grand rapids. Um, so it's going to be like middle of the state, but like a little southwest, okay, okay, um, so they lived there in the 1860s and that was when there was a lot of tension rising between the north and the south states. Right, and tensions were high as they were trying to expand to the west and they couldn't decide whether the states were going to be slave states or not sure. So southerners agreed nope. Southerners argued, okay, that based on the us constitution, slaves were considered property and abolitionists were fringing on their state's rights.

10:05 Okay, so the constitution said that they prohibited congress from outlying the atlantic slave trade for 20 years, and then there was a fugitive clause excuse me a fugitive slave clause. Okay, that required the return of any runaway slave to their owners, no matter where they were north or southern states, isn't that crazy? The constitution gave the federal government the power to put down domestic rebellions, including slave insurrections, and the northerners argued that, quote all men were created equal. Well, you know Per the Declaration of Independence.

10:46 Yeah, I mean, they're not wrong. Mm-hmm, that's unfortunate. Isn't that just wild that this person is just trying to live a free life? They run away and be like nope, you're my property. You have to go back. We're going to send you back. It's like no man. Yeah, what the hell. So the yeah, what the hell. So the american civil war started on april 12th 1861. Okay, and james skaden volunteered at 17 years old, wow, and joined the cavalry okay, he was a part of the second michigan regiment, company c in grand rapids, michigan. Wow, cheers, cheers, grand rapids why are we cheers in grand rapids?

11:30 Because it was on my beer can oh that's right yeah, my bad, that's funny so he's company c. So there are a hundred men in a company okay and then 10 companies to a regiment, so 1,000. And then so James's regiment had about 1,200 men approximately. Sure, okay, okay, so approximate, yeah, yeah. So the cavalry units played a pivotal role in American Civil War Right, they served as the eyes and the ears for the army okay. So their speed and mobility allowed them to perform several functions, so cavalry units were adept at scouting enemy positions.

12:18 I mean that makes sense because they're on horses, so they can move in and out a little bit quicker than someone running around. Yeah okay, they would gather intelligence on troop movements and identify potential vulnerabilities. Sure, they acted as a protective shield for armies, screening them from the enemy, observation and preventing surprise attacks. Okay, cavalry units could conduct raids behind enemy lines, disrupting supply lines, destroying infrastructure and demoralizing enemy forces. That sounds fun. And after a battle, cavalry units were often tasked with pursuing retreating enemy forces, preventing them from regroup, regrouping and inflicting further damage.

13:02 Yeah, I suppose it'd be pretty easy for them to cut them off kind of thing, because of being on horses and their speed with that, okay, makes sense and in certain situations, cavalry units could charge into enemy lines, creating confusion and disrupting formations. Okay and yeah, I mean they fought. The way they fought was basically in a lot of formations back then, which is wild when you watch old movies and, yes, they're not always historically accurate, but it's like, let's go in a straight line, everybody lined up. It's like, okay, you're all gonna die, but cool yeah, that's just how they operated, so it's wild so james was 5'10", had blue eyes, sandy brown hair and declared himself to be 18 to join the army.

13:50 Yeah, because he obviously had to lie, he was 17,. Yeah, yep. So he was to be paid $13 a month. That's crazy. It's about $410. That's still terrible he was fully outfitted with a dark blue cavalry. Cavalry there it is waistcoat, light blue pants, black knee boots and dark in a dark blue keppy hats keppy hat yeah, it's like it kind of looks like a top hat with a bill. But then it was like folded down. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. They also had Colt revolving rifles. So, like the repeating, rifles Sure.

14:32 They had pistols and they had sabers. Did they have bayonets? That would be a saber. No, no, no. A saber is a sword Bayonets. Go on your gun. Oh no they. A saber's a sword Bayonets. Go on your gun. Oh no they had a saber, then she's like fucking A Brad. Why do you have to ask me questions? I don't know. So guess what his horse's name was. George. You're not wrong. Well, you're not like far off. I say I'm. It's not far off. It's a name like that. Is it really? Yeah, billy, it's not far off, it's, it's. It's a name like that, is it really yeah? billy boy billy. His name is billy billy boy called him billy boy, all right.

15:14 So cavalry horses were typically brown or black and 15 to 16 hands in height okay, sure and each horse was valued at about 150, which was about 4600 in today's money I mean that seems fairly inexpensive for a horse it is. I mean, I used to have a horse oh yeah, that's right, molly yeah, she was a sweet horse, she. She wasn't very tall I thought you were gonna say sweetheart, I mean she was sweetheart, sweet horse anyway all right, um she. I don't remember how tall she was. Do you know why they do it in hands? it's like four what four fingers or something, but no, I don't remember why it's in hands because people didn't have tape measures back in the day.

16:01 So they, they would just do that yeah that's how many hands they were yeah and for some reason that just stuck. Yeah, whatever, but so I'm going to give you kind of a brief timeline of james's regiment and what he did in the civil war up until a moment that we're going to talk about okay. So, um, so he was a part of the 2nd Michigan Regiment. They participated in the Peninsula Campaign of 1862, including the Battles of Williamsburg, virginia, which Union won, seven Pines, which is also in Richmond, virginia, and that's the Confederates won.

16:43 Okay. And Malvern Hill near Richmond Virginia. Malvern. Hill and the Union won on that one. I never heard of that one. And then they fought in Second Bull Run and that is near Prince William County, virginia. The Confederates won in August of 1862. In 1862, they were involved in the Battles battles of antietam, which is in maryland, okay, and the union won that one, and frederick, fredericksburg, virginia, which the confederates won so are you saying he was a part of all of these? his regiment was right, right, right okay which is multiple companies correct so he was a part of some of these, but not all of them.

17:26 I see, okay, because of like what happens to him right, right um. and then the second michigan regiment also went on to see action in the battle of chancellorsville in 1863, which is in virginia and the confederates, and they played a role in the Union victory at Gettysburg in 1863. And then, towards the end of the war, the regiment continued to serve in the Army of the Potomac during the Overland Campaign, which is the regiment participated in General Ulysses S Grant's Overland Campaign, which was a series of battles fought in Virginia.

18:08 Gotcha. And then the Siege of Petersburg. So after the Overland Campaign, the regiment took part in the Siege of Petersburg, virginia, which was a nine-month siege of the Confederate capital. I bet that was not fun. Yeah. Nine months damn siege of the confederate capital. I bet that was not fun. Yeah, nine months, damn so james ended up camping in tennessee after different squirmishes, squirmishes, squirmishes, squirmishes. That's squirmishes, I do I think squirmishes should be the name of the episode squirmishes there, it is okay okay, um so on january 27th 1864, james, on top of his horse billy boy, billy boy, traveling at full speed and in a cavalry charge, got thrown from his horse billy boy.

19:05 What were you doing? So speculation is that James dislocated or broke his shoulder Ooh, cracked a few ribs, yep, and potentially his sternum. So I've never been thrown from a horse like that. Mm-hmm. But I do believe I've told you this, so I'll just repeat it real quick. I got stepped on by a horse. Ouch, that fucking hurt. So I was riding. He was a super nice horse too and obviously he didn't mean to do it, but I was riding him. His name was Dan. Yeah, I was on Dan, she was on Nick. Yeah, dan, and this lady. So the property I lived on Dan, she was on Nick, yeah, dan, and this lady.

19:45 So the property I lived on was an old farm, had some field, it was all fenced in, that's where the horses went, and this lady who lived next door did the whole flip the bag like a plastic bag in the air. Like to open it up? Yeah correct and well, spooked Dan. Spooked dan. So he abruptly turned with me on him, shook me off of him, basically. So I just fell on the ground and then he stepped down to go run and it stepped right on the back of my calf ah, not even on your foot no, it was on the back of my calf. Ouch, that fucking hurt.

20:26 I was hurting for a few days after that. I'm sure you did. I'm just glad you didn't break my bone. No kidding, I mean, he very well could have with the force that he went down and pushed off and ran. But I will tell you this that hurts, and anyone who's been bucked off a horse or whatever. It's not fun. So I feel for james james getting well thrown from billy boy so, yeah, and james ended up laying unconscious. I'm not surprised at that, and at this point point he got captured. Oh boo.

21:10 So his clothes and his boots were immediately taken from him, not surprised, and put onto the enemy immediately. Oh yeah, they just started wearing his clothes? Yeah, because they needed it probably. So he was nearly naked in winter climate. Oh boy. So from the very beginning of the war, pow's were exchanged right, yeah union soldiers held by confederates were exchanged for confederate soldiers held by union soldiers correct as soon as slaves were emancipated and joined the union army yeah the exchanges stopped. I'm not surprised they didn't have any more weight to them. Really for the south well, they didn't well one.

21:54 There was no side like honestly wanted them in their, their, their ranks, sure, essentially um, and they were considered like below them that's terrible they received ten dollars a month. To the whites thirteen dollars a month I like how you go. The whites the whites. Between january 28th and february 26th 1864, james was taken to belle isle, virginia. Okay, belle isle is a small island located in the james river and it is just south of richmond, virginia. Okay. And during the civil war it served as a confederate pow camp, gotcha.

22:36 So the belle isle prison was established in 1862 to hold Union soldiers captured in the area. Conditions in the camp were harsh, leading to rates of disease and death among the prisoners. Sure, the island was prone to flooding as well. Oh, good lord. And they often lacked adequate food and water and shelter, medical care. I would imagine they didn't really focus on giving prisoners top-notch facilities and care and it became overcrowded so fast that they they knew that a move had to happen. Sure, so the public was also afraid of prisoner uprising well, yeah, because they don't want and their food is also dwindling all right, the townspeople, they're in a war.

23:22 Yeah, so with James in the prison was his best friend, elijah Steele. Okay, and we'll call him Eli. Eli, he's 19. Okay, david Hill's 21. And John Johnson is 21. Okay. And the four of them grew up in the same one-room schoolhouse. Oh, right right, so very close, yep. So, being thrown from his horse, he was injured, he contracted lice oh dear and obviously extremely hungry right. So thus andersonville prison was erected okay, so they built andersonville out of a necessity to have more space for prisoners.

24:06 Okay, yes, yes, because they were no longer being exchanged. Right, yeah, they were just holding them now. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so between February 26th and March 4th they all boarded like a train, car, box car. Sure To get shipped out. Yeah, to Andersonville. And this is in georgia right so if we drove it by car today it would be about 627 miles between bell isle and andersonville so decent, decent amount of space between in 1864 by train it was 889 miles wow, yeah, that's quite a addition of miles, yeah so it literally took from february 26 to march 4th just to get there to get there.

24:56 Wow, yeah I mean, it's only what? Six days, but still it's. It's a long time on a train when you're probably not very well taken care of and they have to go to. They have to march to the trains. Right the train station. Yeah, because it's not like it just picked them up from there because they're on an island exactly so, and then they had to walk. I don't know if it was in americus, georgia, or if it was in andersonville, the town, georgia okay um, to get to the actual prison, they had to walk from the train station to the prison oh, yeah, I suppose yeah, so they all boarded the boxcars. There was just enough room for james to sit in the corner and tend to his wounds.

25:37 But the longer the train ride, the more stops they had to make sure. The more pows boarded the train right, the less and less room they had. Yeah, that's got to suck. There are sardines in there, exactly yeah. So Andersonville. The town only had a population of 20. What 20 people? Mm-hmm, wow, okay. And it was much more remote, so it's in the southwestern part of Georgia. Right much more remote, so it's in the southwestern part of georgia right, and it was far enough from the war that enemy raids would be less likely and they could be more easily supplied with food okay so the stockade was built and meant for 10 000 soldiers so and this was always meant to be a prison, correct?

26:20 Yes, okay, yeah, they built it for relief, prison relief okay, so it was meant for 10 000 soldiers and how many did they have? oh, you will find out. I read a book um called. Now I know okay the story of james ross, scadden and Andersonville Civil War prisoner, and it is by Yvonne Lynn Scott Bartell. Okay. And in it it says, quote the design of the prison was simple. Tall, straight pines were cut down, trimmed and topped to make logs about 20 feet in length.

27:02 Workers with broad axes then hewed the logs into a thickness of 8 to 12 inches and the hewn timbers, pointed on the top were planted about 5 feet deep in a trench, making a wall approximately 15 feet high. Right, the original stockade enclosed only about 16.5 acres. end quote right, and then they expanded at some point, right, yeah so 16.5 acres. It's a, if you would imagine a football field, it would be like four and a third okay football fields long and about two and a half football fields wide so really not that wide it.

27:43 It's really not. No. So it's also important to note that there is actually a small stream dividing the camp in two halves. Oh, okay. So an east and a west. Sure. So there are no standing trees in the camp. Because they cut them all down. They cut them all down. To build the place. And there are, in fact, like little hills and then valleys Within the cut them all down to build the place and there are, in fact, like little hills and then valleys within the camp, basically okay, because, yeah, it wasn't like flat ground, exactly right, um, and there's no barracks. They didn't build any barracks for shelter and rationed were issued each day when they quote, were available jesus yeah that had to suck, because I'm sure they weren't always readily available.

28:25 No, so is this just literally a place with four walls? Yes, oh, good Lord. Yes. That would really suck. Yes. Especially when it rained, you know, in the mud and shit. And they're in fucking Georgia. Where it's hot. It's hot. No relief from the sun when it's out? No, oh, man, and you will come to find out, it rained a lot that year. Did it really. It did. Oh dear. So the guards when they built the stockade, they actually left behind sticks and branches and they allowed the prisoners to take whatever was left. Okay. So it was kind of a first-come, first-served basis but left okay, so it was kind of a first come, first serve basis.

29:08 Um, but they could use them to, like, build a shelter of some kind they called them shebangs, shebangs, the, the um shelters. Okay, interesting. So james and his three friends constructed a lean-to using the stock, a stockade wall, and then the branches, and then, um, eli actually had a blanket that they used as their roof, oh wow. Yeah, so at least they had something, I guess. Yeah, I'll mention more about the blanket here coming up, sure, because it's actually unique. Okay, so they had roll calls daily which could honestly take up to four or five hours, and they're already really weak from being at Belle Isle and not having food rations there, right, and then standing in line for four to five hours just to get your name called that's brutal.

29:55 It took so long because if there was someone missing from the line, they literally stopped roll call. And they would search for that person. They would search for that person, oh Jesus. Christ. And so if there was like a friend that knew well, this person's not going to be here when his name comes up I have to yell missing, sick or dead. Okay, yeah, wow. So outside of the stockade on the hill there's the guards camp, okay, okay, and remember that stream I mentioned. Yeah, they use that stream for the bathroom to drink from oh, okay, good but then downstream, they'd use it as their bathing water yeah and then further downstream from that, their latrine yeah, so I was right once in the stockade that downstream water is now the prisoners upstream.

30:50 Yeah, yeah gross, yeah, so they just had basically shit water available to them immediately. Yeah, that's disgusting. To make matters worse, oh dear the end of the stockade, where the creek would continue on, they built that wall up which clogged the stream. Oh. So it was no longer flowing. Gross yeah, so it basically just stopped there. Yeah. Would it pool up at all? Oh yeah, oh yeah, Come on just stop there? yeah, would it pull up at all? Or oh yeah, oh yeah, come on. And then to make it even worse, because, why not? The cookhouse, which was for the guards mainly, yeah, was built on the creek and they would use that to dump their grease in sure all day long they would just literally use the it to suit them, and then they didn't care about the prisoners, obviously.

31:46 So nope, I mean, they didn't even give them places to stay. They said here's four walls, you stay in there. Yeah, good lord so daily 400 prisoners at a time would arrive, some of them twice a day so 800 a day at times and they always would ship them in by train and have them march there, kind of thing yep, less and less space for each person. Right, the creek was getting more and more polluted and the smell of the grease and the human waste that was coming up from the stream would make these like brand new pows. Like throw up, throw dry heath, throw up and one even fainted, like it was witness that some even fainted. That had to just have quite the stench.

32:27 I mean, that's disgusting, oh Lord. So in March of 1864, 600 soldiers would continue to arrive, many without shoes or stockings. They could be seen with their feet wrapped in rags and string. Whatever they could find basically. And lice was taking over at this point. Yeah, they had to be running rampant in a place like that. Everyone had oily, sticky, dirty hair, dirty skin. Well, you have nowhere to clean yourself. No. Because even if you go, in the river and clean yourself. You're cleaning yourself in shit. Yes, and that's probably a breeding ground for lice. And lice would burrow into their clothes and rags and shoes Gross, but some of the men would actually pluck them from their clothing and stuff and put them into a fire they could create.

33:16 To try and get rid of them yeah. And they used that as part of their pastime to hear them pop in the fire. I mean, what else do you have to do? Yeah, I mean, you're in prison. so yeah, there are a couple things coming up that they, they, they did do. But and I will get to that okay. So from that same book quote the stench of the camp is overpowering. Some of the new arrivals faint as soon as they come through the gate, while others vomit as they take their first breath of this putrid, fly-infested air. That's terrible. So remember, the camp was meant for like 10,000 POWs, yep. Well, by May of 1864, there were 12,000.

33:57 At this point. Holy shit, there were already 2,000 over, and I'm sure it didn't stop there. It really didn't. Oh dear. So now we're going to talk about Captain Henry Wurz. This is the guy who ran the camp, correct? Yes, yes, he's actually from Switzerland but I think moved to like Louisiana and got in on the Confederacy. Okay. So this son of a bitch declared that the prisoners, including James and his three friends friends could no longer use stockade walls as part of their shelter. Good lord yeah, they also took down one of the walls and expanded the camp how much did they expand it? at, say, 10 acres? Oh so it was 26 and a quarter or whatever.

34:38 It was okay. So what was the if the original uh? Was it 16.25? Is that what it originally was Was designed for 10,000. What did that extra 10 acres in theory add? Prisoner wise. I don't think they really put a number on it, but if I had to guess, it would be half that then. Well so around 15,000, I guess 15 to 16, even 10 is a little over the obviously the halfway. So, yeah, I could see around 15,000,. I guess, yeah, 15 to 16, even 10 is a little over the half wave, so, yeah, I could see like 16,000. Yeah. Maybe Okay. So Wirtz also developed a kill line. A kill line.

35:18 Mm, hmm, a small. A small fence was used to mark a line that prisoners could not cross without risking being shot. So on the other side of the line were the guards. Gotcha. So in between the kill line and the stockade walls was about 20 feet, and that of course made that prison much smaller. Well, yeah, you're taking away space now. Yep, they refer to that line as the deadline. Oh, there you go. And that's kind of where we get the name deadline. Is it? It's not quoted as in it's the Andersonville prison, but that's just part of the overall history of the word deadline.

36:01 It comes from prisons. That's wild yeah. So this Wurtz character character, he didn't run it right away, he came in at some point, he did. There was another? yeah, there was no, he came in later. So there was another commander that actually was a decent human being, sure, and he tried to get food rations and clothing and shoes for all these prisoners, and he just wasn't doing a splendid job, apparently, and they brought in words instead instead I mean, they probably didn't think he was doing a splendid job because he was trying for the prisoners. Yeah. So they're like no, we're not wasting our, our, our rations, our equipment, anything on these people.

36:44 They're literally just our prisoner so, with roll calls happening daily, these fragile men are like being held up by other fragile men, like they're trying to hold each other up right, okay now there's a large group of new yorkers that were in this camp called. They called them the raiders okay they would rob essentially every prisoner they could find with something of value, oh dear, so um. They started out like concealing their actions but eventually, like the raiders, no longer cared and any resistance to the raiders they would beat you senseless, I can imagine.

37:25 Yeah so they were just basically, uh, a gang within the prison. Yes, was what it was. Okay, mid-may 1864, james developed signs of scurvy. Oh, do you know what scurvy is? I? vaguely tell me though it's a condition that results from a vitamin c deficiency, so like he's not getting fruits and vegetables, right? Yeah so scurvy symptoms are anemia, exhaustion, spontaneous bleeding, limb pain, swelling and ulceration ulcerations of the? Um gums and loss of teeth. Yeah so his best friend eli from his company was getting worse and worse, worse with each passing day.

38:10 His sickness started before they even reached andersonville, but as rations continued to be low, he ended up dry heaving and getting diarrhea, dysentery and scurvy. Oh boy, yeah it's quite the cocktail of shit yeah, james actually made it a point in his diary entries to mention pretty much daily how eli was okay, so he's just keeping track. It's his best friend, so yeah yeah, makes sense so eli was only 20. He looked like an old man because of how thin and malnutrition he was right. And he ended up dying, oh, on may 24th 1864, like laying next to james. That's, that's crazy. Yeah, james kept him company well, at least he had his friend there, you know.

38:54 But what shitty conditions to die in man, yeah, that sucks so at the end of May, rain would continue on for days and days at a time, and remember I said there was kind of like hills and valleys oh yeah, there's a valley in the stockade. That would become swampy waste filth. Right. Riddled with mud and vermin and flies and just nastiness. Right People were literally walking in this. Some of them were sleeping in this, like there's no room. No, not with that many people so remember eli's blanket that I mentioned, so it's actually a roof yeah, so it's actually a rubber blanket, so they they called it.

39:39 Um, they called it a rubber blanket in the book, but I looked it up and it's called a gum blanket okay um, and it was cloth, um, like canvas cloth on one side and then rubber on the other side to protect against the elements, sure, and you could sleep on it on the ground and use it as a roof, etc okay so the raiders saw this hot commodity well, yeah, they wanted that and went after it hard. Sure, so between um, james, david and john, they fought two raiders. They rolled around in the mud, they took swings at each other. James was knocked over with a blow to the face.

40:19 Actually, they kind of like hit him in the ear which would knock you senseless anyway, yep, and made him whirl around and lose his balance. Okay, and james yelled quote. So the two raiders were essentially taking this blanket off of david and john and james yelled quote. The blanket belonged to a man who died of smallpox. We got the pox from the things ourselves so he's just trying to make shit up so they get away and they dropped it. They dropped it and ran away wow so he claimed that they had smallpox and the blanket had smallpox. So if you take my blanket, you're gonna get smallpox isn't that brilliant.

41:00 I mean yeah, especially then because they didn't fucking know, nope. So I mean to keep their stuff from getting stolen that's yeah that's pretty smart. Yeah, good, good on him for thinking that fast about that so they managed to keep the blanket. Well, that's good. Yeah, so end of may, 17 000 are in the stockade. Now, my word, they have like a makeshift hospital. There's a thousand in there, good god. And by this point 1500 have died wow, already 1500 and this prison's been open for three months. He got there in march, yeah, yeah, two months or two and a half maybe. Whatever it was. He got there at march 4th yeah but this is anime. Yeah, yeah, so I mean jesus.

41:41 So with the conditions, the, there's a wet blanket of just fecal matter covering the inside of the stockade. There's oozing filth, there's worms in the slime and above that, flies are hovering above the fecal matter. I mean, there's got to be really rampant as well. Yeah so, to help pass the time, the POWs created jobs. Okay. Some of them would clean clothes as a laundromat with ashes and sand. Well, you use what you got. I guess they have no soap Nope. A barber had a rusty pair of scissors, and so he would go around and cut hair down as short as possible with these scissors to help get rid of lice.

42:24 Right. Some sewed. Okay. Sewed patches and stuff like that. How'd they get a needle or anything and thread? It's probably not like that. It's probably like you use what you have around you to try to make some kind of a needle Sure, but it's probably not an actual sewing needle. No, I'm sure, I'm sure yeah. Some a needle, sure, but it's probably not an actual sewing needle. No, I'm sure. Yeah, um, some would try to repair shoes for what shoes were there, okay, and someone even fortune-telled oh dear yeah do they have a tarot deck? Are they named bob bob vanga? did she call that one? No, that was before her time. In June, more rain, oh geez, rain upon rain, upon rain, and then, when it would stop, it would be hot and ungodly, human Hubid.

43:13 Ungodly human Hubid Humid yes. Ungodly human. There it is. Maybe that's the title of the episode Ungodly human. There it is, maybe that's the title of the episode Ungodly human. Now, if you remember, like images that you might have seen from like the Holocaust days, you would see like these really skinny people. It's just bones with skin on top, but they would have like these big bellies. Yeah. So that's known as dropsy okay and they also experience that at andersonville. So it's edema or swelling um underneath the skin due due to accumulation of fluid okay, so you would see that as well.

43:56 People had mouths that were just oozing blood from scurvy. Um, and then there were even murders by the raiders. They would kill to get their right, their commodities I mean they're in a prison at this point. They don't care yeah which is just funny if you think about it, because this is obviously a confederate prison. Yes, all the people that are prisoners are from the same side, and these guys are killing their same fucking people. It's like I get what they're doing because they're trying to survive. It's a confederate prison, but they're all union men. That's what I just said oh yeah, they're all on the same side, the people that are prisoners in there and they're killing each other. Yes, yes, I'm sorry. Yes, sorry, I thought you meant the guards.

44:37 I was like no, no, no, no, no, no, you're right they're killing their own people exactly in a situation like that, it shows you survival of the fittest kind of kind of mentality because it doesn't matter that, hey, we're on the same team here, right? But you know everyone for themselves at that point it is, which is sad. Yeah, so to pass the time other than picking off lice, they would play cards they had cards. They make their own um, it didn't say that in the book but, I would imagine they kind of have something stowed away somewhere. Yeah, possibly they would play checkers with stones, sure, um, they would write letters that would never get mailed that had to be hard they would wander right and they would sleep.

45:22 That's crazy. Yeah, what else do you have to do though? Sometimes they would talk about like my mom used to make this dish at home and they would talk about food, Make themselves go insane. Yeah, I think that would be worse. Well, yeah, because then it's like now I really want this dish. So now we're at 22,000 men. Good Lord, that shot up another five grand, and that's with the 26 acres oh, my word, is that the only expansion they ever did? okay, so it's capped out there. Yeah, wow, 22 000 soldier or prisoners, excuse me, maybe soldiers so, soldiers, the pows finally went to worse and started complaining about the raiders.

46:06 Sure they're like? Have you not noticed what's been happening in here? They're taking over the stockade right and they, the raiders, had knives, they had brass knuckles, they had clubs and their prisoners were just at their mercy yeah, yeah. Not everyone can claim smallpox you know, so Wurtz actually did something interesting. Okay, he demanded that all the raiders be presented to him. Oh, wow. Hundreds showed up, Like they quote unquote, captured and put them in front of Wurtz and said here there's hundreds of them. Wurtz collected 20 POWs, not out of this raider pack.

46:47 Right. And he told the 20 prisoners to pick out the most notorious of the raiders. Okay. Six were chosen. Oh, wow. And Wurtz ordered them to create a judge and jury and have attorneys and put on a trial for each of those six. Really, mm-hmm, I thought that was kind of interesting. It is interesting Some of them are already attorneys. Right, I mean they had jobs before the Civil War Of course. So they actually had their own trial.

47:27 That's surprising a person running a prison like that would do that yeah yeah, okay gave them a little bit of humanity back in that yeah, so it's like out of all the crap that they didn't do for them, why would you do? This you know, yeah, because that was probably the easiest thing you could give them without giving supplies, giving clothes and all that stuff and food and whatever. Yeah, so I mean and then they also don't have to like figure out what to do with them yeah, no, he put it in their hands yeah like yeah, you go, do you do this thing? So shocker, they were all sentenced by hanging weird. Imagine that I would have never guessed that happened um, and they actually did end up hanging all six of them.

48:07 They did, okay, the one that was most notorious. His name was Mosby. Mosby. Yeah, his rope broke and survived. And they're like we're going to do this again. And they literally did it immediately. They're like, no, you're not getting away with this. Yeah. No, just because your rope broke doesn't mean you're Scott Frino. Yep, fuck that. Wow, that's crazy yeah. That would have broke. The other raiders would be marched through the camp where POWs were allowed to throw sticks and stones at them and humiliate them essentially. Did they break their bones? I mean, if someone got in a good lucky shot, it could be yeah. So, July 1864.

48:48 Did it rain? more. Population 35,000. Holy fuck. They added 13,000 more in a month, yeah. That's how many prisoners are coming daily. That's insane. Each POW occupied the space of a grave. Well, yeah, at this point james was suffering from chronic diarrhea and he could barely walk, oh dear. But to keep their spirits high, they counted their blessings. Oh, can you imagine what a blessing would be knowing like what they're dealing with right now? Um that they weren't dead. Exactly, I mean yeah they don't really have anything else that's blessing them at the moment.

49:34 Well, I'm going to tell you what they're thankful for. Okay, let's go. And I'm going to use this in um my point of view like a first person point of view. Okay, I'm thankful to God I don't have a mirror. Yeah, I mean I wouldn't want to see how I look at that point, because you'd be like a shadow of yourself really. Oh good Lord. I'm thankful I only had the runs twice today. Oh man. Oh, that's terrible to be thankful for, but I understand it. I'm thankful I don't have to worry about getting the floor dirty. Well, no, you don't have to clean it up, it's already dirty, it's full of shit. I'm thankful no one has asked me to comb my hair. And the last one I'm thankful for all this leisure time, oh wow.

50:21 Yeah, that's maybe a stretch, but okay, yeah, time. Oh wow, yeah, that's maybe a stretch, but okay yeah, that is well. I mean again, they didn't have much to be thankful for so come august crazy approximately 150 soldiers would die every 24 hours wow so every day so james was all thinking well, bell isle was better than we thought it was. They had at least fresh air, right, because with these prison walls they were so high there would literally be no air movement. Yeah, black in the wind, basically and then dead bodies burning in the Georgia sun.

51:04 So did they mention at all what they did with them, Did they? They had a death wagon. Okay A la, bring Out your Dead. Yeah. Yeah, they literally had that. And they would. Just would they take them and bury them in like a mass grave? They would, or would they burn them? Yes, yes, gotcha. And I will touch on that a little bit more as well, gotcha, yes, yes, gotcha, and I will touch on that a little bit more as well, gotcha. So new POWs in August here would march into the camp and immediately gag and vomit and fainted, and one man who fainted ended up going mad in the prison. So these new POWs were actually sent to liberate Andersonville, but were captured instead.

51:46 So the prisoners in? Andersonville were like thank God, someone knows we're here. They're still trying to get us out of here, even though these sorry folk Sorry, we got caught Exactly Trying to help you Exactly. So, even though they were captured, the other POW's had their spirits raised just a touch, like okay, there's a little bit of hope well, I mean, even though it might have been minute, it's something like they said knowing that there's people out there, that knowing that we're we're here and that they're trying to do something. They just fucking failed at it yeah which is unfortunate. But yeah, no, I mean that had to raise your spirits a tinge, but wow, so on August 16th 1864.

52:29 Okay, there was a torrential thunderstorm, oh dear, and a bolt of lightning struck the ground and it opened up a water spring, really Fresh water, oh wow. They called it providence spring well makes sense. Is it still in operation today? yes, that's fantastic yeah, so providence spring was actually in the deadline okay but the guards allowed the men to cross over that part of the deadline to get to the fresh water. Wow, that had to be some type of relief for them yeah to actually have water.

53:12 That's not but it would also be scary because you're crossing the deadline there. There was mention in the book that someone accidentally slipped on the mud and hit his head on the deadline post and he was shot because he touched the deadline. Oh, whoops. Yeah. That sucks, yeah. Wow, poor guy, he just wants some water, yeah. Meanwhile, james's gums are tender, bleeding, teeth are loosed, he's got constant diarrhea, all of his muscle mass is gone and he has no strength left in his limbs. I can't. I can imagine, how did he keep writing I'm sure there's enough muscle to move my finger, your fingers well, maybe just I mean the will to still want to do it, though, is yeah I mean that's more impressive to me than the muscle being able to do it really.

54:01 Yeah I will tell you that, towards as we progress in the book, the um diaries get a little bit shorter each time. I'm not surprised, but there's still quite a bit of information he's given us, sure. So at one point, captain worse, pressured prison prisoners into taking an oath of allegiance to the confederate army, and if they were to sign up to join their army they would be liberated immediately did. A lot of them do that a few did yes, I mean I at that point. Why wouldn't you? Yeah because anything, even fighting for the other side's got to be better than what they're doing. They would get clothing. They would get paid and they would get food. So yes, a few did sign up I'm not surprised.

54:42 Yeah, do they have a number or no? I think I say so a little bit later. Okay, gotcha, september 1864. The lack of fruits and vegetables has completely taken its toll. James now has swollen ankles and feet and can no longer support his weight when walking. Wow, and there was news of atlanta being taken over by the union okay so, for fear of the union seeing andersonville worse, moved a large number of prisoners to another prison south okay um, under the guise of them being exchanged, even though that wasn't a thing yeah, because they stopped doing that. Yeah, well, I mean that had to help moving some of them out of there, though yes, and then they actually did continue this.

55:29 So words demanded that only those who can walk oh geez. Can be taken out and sent to savannah or charleston okay, better prisons. I would imagine you would hope days would pass after this announcement, but finally he asked for 10 detachments. Each detachment has 270 men okay so about 2700, um 2700 men who can walk were taken out of the prison I mean again, there's still a boatload left but yep, and they were piled into boxcars. Oh, geez, sardines again. James's detachment because it was kind of like regulated in a way sure, um, his detachment was told that he would be leaving in three days and how many days did it take?

56:14 Not three days. His friends david and john in solidarity told james if you can't walk out of here, we're not going either. Wow, no man left behind. Sure. So September 10th 1864, it was their turn. Okay. David and John helped James to his feet. They were standing on either side of him. His feet were swollen and he had to use his tippy toes to walk yeah. And his knees were unable to straighten. Yeah, close to the exit, james fainted. Oh no, and he was slapped across the face by john to wake him up.

56:54 Dude, dude, dude, wake up, wake up, wake up, we're almost there, we're almost out but the guards saw them. Oh, poop immediately declared james cannot leave because he cannot walk himself. Sure, the next thing that james could remember was quote a dull thud on my head falling, dragging sensation, end quote. Okay, nothing else was mentioned. So not sure if he was knocked unconscious right by a guard, but by who knows if he just fell, we don't know okay so all three of them remained in andersonville, just like david and john said, no man left behind that's very nice because obviously it's their friend and you know, they've known him well, almost their lives.

57:37 So that's awesome that he had those people there with him, but, man, it sucks that if I was james I'd be like no, you guys, go and save yourself yeah, so james says quote I wept bitter tears. In addition to being terribly sick, I now suffered overpowering guilt and heartache. Well right, I mean can you blame the guy because again these two guys stayed behind for him, for him alone, and that? yeah, no, I'd feel guilty as shit too so by the end of september, because of all these like trains coming in to move these prisoners out, 8200 remained in the prison that's significantly lower than that other number wow, and james found himself in the stockade prison.

58:19 This was on the ground, but it was like a little bit further out from the expansion gotcha. Three out of four prisoners that went to the hospital would die, oh geez. And james avoided the hospital as long as he could oh yeah, because you have a 75 chance of death. Yes, so one of the biggest sufferers in the hospital was gangrene. Okay, sure, so sores would spread visibly by the hour. Ulceration, ulcerations ate out the tissue between the skin and the ribs. In the mornings, blue vitriol was used on the wounds. What's blue vitriol? it is copper, sulfate, pentahydrate okay, and it is a very painful antiseptic oh so it was meant to help, but it also it was super painful, super painful to take.

59:09 Okay, that sucks they would hear screams every morning because of this antiseptic, taking that and it's again supposed to make you feel better. But the. the doctors that were there performed two hours of limb amputation each morning to help with gangrene control. Wow, and James in the book specifically mentions the pile of severed limbs that he witnessed. Yeah, I mean pile arms here pile legs there, that's just wild yeah. So all of October and November he spent in in the hospital. There was only one entry for each month oh, really, probably because he just couldn't do it yeah, in october he talked about hallucinating meals okay, from his mother and his sisters oh yeah, there's that and in november he said that president lincoln was re -elected for a second term.

1:00:02 Oh, there you go. December 7th 1864. Do not mention Pearl Harbor. I was not saying a word. You looked at me funny. Go back to Juno about the Juno people if you want to know. Episode one December 7th 1864. James turned 21. Okay, he's only 21. 21, I know going through all of that baby and he's, he's, he's, went through all that and he's just turned 21. That's crazy, yeah on december 23rd, private jonah wheeler of the 111th us Infantry arrived at the prison.

1:00:43 His job was to find deceased patients, load them onto the death wagon and bury the dead. Okay. And this is how James met Jonah. Somehow James was loaded onto that death wagon because that's how sick he was. Yeah, jonas saw him and saved him from the car of the deceased and carried his little frail body back to the hospital. He stopped the guy who was carrying the wagon. Dude, stop. This guy is still alive jesus yeah, I'm not dead yet I mean we have to it has to happen.

1:01:24 Oh, poor guy I know it's terrible to be that freaking like frail looking yeah, at death's door close to death and yeah, wow so jonah officially saved james from dying. He provided him with a blanket, clothing, clothing all lice-ridden, of course, but even extra food rations at the hospital he provided James, and he held him at night to keep him from shivering. Jesus yeah, january with James still alive. So this is 1865 now, right Less prisoners at the camp. They were finally noticing improved rations. Oh, that's nice. At least jonah, who used to work with lame horses on a plantation near memphis, moved james's joints and made him exercise his limbs by pushing against his strengths.

1:02:16 That's one of the techniques that I do in massage, for sure yeah, so eventually james did begin to stand on his toes still but he could finally stand again. That's better than not standing, isn't that amazing? Yeah, that's crazy. February 1865, worse, again offered loyalty to the unions to join the Confederate Army. Right 21 joined. Only 21 people, mm-hmm. Wow. That shows you the kind of dedication they had to their side, though. I think that shows what they would do to survive. Those 21 people? Yeah, yeah, for sure. In March, reunited with John and David.

1:02:56 finally, oh, because he was in the hospital. James was well enough to stand, so he was well enough not to be in the hospital anymore, and they spent about six months apart. Wow, yeah. Do they, do you know or does it? Did you see anything that said that, like they, they knew he was still alive, at least because they didn't get to see him Right? I think they knew, but it took a little bit to find them in this yeah. To find them in the stockade. But they did spend six months apart and they were reunited. So, captain, worse, enters the camp and out of a population of 5, 750, 900 of the sickest would be exchanged.

1:03:38 Okay. So during roll call the day of the exchange, james, david and John were all selected as the sickest in their group. Oh wow, sadly, because Jonah was black, he would not be exchanged. Oh, that's too bad. Therefore he remained in the camp, right, 400 sick and stockade prisoners lined up. After 500 of the hospital prisoners were loaded onto the trains Sure. After 500 of the hospital prisoners were loaded onto the trains, sure. So while waiting in line, jonah walked up to James and kept their little group company. Okay, james felt heart sick, knowing that he'd probably never see Jonah again. And as the gate opened to their freedom, james stepped back and said to David and John quote Friends.

1:04:25 I wish you well and I'll see you back home. Quote. So he decided to stay with jonah yeah, with shock on their faces. They hurried outside the stockade. They hurt, they were hurried like they were like pushed out right and they saw james disappear on the inside that's crazy. I mean this dude really kind of brought him back from this door. He did. So I don't blame him for wanting to stay, but man to give up that freedom, Because you said they were being exchanged, correct? Yeah. So they were going to be free. Yes. Wow, that's pretty ballsy. So at this point, trains were in need of repair, tracks were in need of repair and in need of repair, and it was days before another train would arrive.

1:05:07 Right by the end of march, only 3 319 pows were left in andersonville 3 319 now comes april, and this is where I started. I was already infuriated with the situation but I got even more infuriated. Okay, let's learn. April 4th, pows were giving four-day rations and were climbed into rail cars. His day finally came and. Jonah was in the last cattle car Because all the blacks had to go with the Beck. Sure, they were finally leaving Andersonville prison.

1:05:48 They traveled 50 miles, which was five hours long, oh God, because that's how bad the trains were. Sure, they traveled 50 miles to Albany, georgia. Okay. They got out and camped. Okay, okay. This is going to be like a rapid fire. April 5th on foot they marched 17 miles, made camp that night. April 6th marched 20 miles, camped that night. We're talking people with no shoes. Yeah right, 17, 20 miles very weak people with no shoes that had to be tearing up their feet. April 7th Marched 14 miles to Thomasville, where the next day they would board another train to Jacksonville, florida.

1:06:35 Okay, april 8th they went back to Andersonville, why Commanders of the two armies could not agree on a location for their exchange. Oh, come on. Where did the other prisoners go then? Could they not have continued that as their exchange place? Right. They literally had to retrace their steps. On April 9th they retraced their steps. April 12th they were back in Albany. April 13th they boarded the train to Andersonville. That's wild. How do you fuck that up? That bad Isn't that awful. That's terrible, because now they have to redo that whole freaking trek.

1:07:16 And, worse said, we'll leave again in a few days. Wow. Again, rapid fire here. Yeah, April 17th they boarded a train, this time to Macon. Macon. Mm-hmm. Okay, and this time there was no room to sit. I'm not surprised Once you're in the cars Right. April 18th they reached Macon and were ordered back to Albany. What that was? 106 miles. Good Lord. April 19th they marched towards Thomasville, which is 60 miles away. Okay, April 20th they marched and camped. April 21st. Marched and camped. April 21st, marched and camped. April 22nd, they finally reached thomasville and were to leave on the train that evening okay, where to um?

1:08:01 To florida okay april 23rd they traveled by train. April 24th they made it to florida like early in the morning. Finally 142 miles. Oh dear and they camped here for a few days. Okay, Now April 27th and your wife actually mentioned this when she was talking about Andersonville to us- Okay. Unknown to James, the steamboat Sultana, carrying 2,300 passengers, explodes and sinks in the Mississippi River, killing 1800 men that's right. Yeah, she did mention that that steamboat had a max capacity of third of 375 people and there was 2 300 on there isn't that wild, you couldn't have even moved most of those passengers were from andersonville of course they were wow, so they were finally getting yes sent on their way home, and they ended up dying it is considered the greatest maritime disaster in us history, with a greater loss of life than the titanic yeah, no kidding, because what was it?

1:09:09 2300, something300, something, and then 1,800 of them died, right Wow? And the headlines and stuff around the Sultana was overlooked. Sure. Because at the same time, John Wilkes Booth killed President Lincoln. Yeah, of course. So no one really said much about it because, yep well, our president just got shot so april 28th they took another train to baldwin, florida. They hopped trains that then led them to jacksonville, which was about 21 miles away. Okay, now here in jacksonville they saw the 134th us colored infantry okay, and they all hobbled essentially over to their hospitality.

1:09:55 They could just see them with like open arms and yeah so they provided the pows with food, coffee for the first time, shelter, and james specifically mentions kindness. Well, yeah, because wow may 7th 1865, captain henry wirtz was captured by the union he was still at andersonville. Oh geez, james stayed in jacksonville until may 10th. I'm just kind of doing this chronologically here. Sure, food was served on plates he had to. That had to be wild for them forks to eat with wholesome meals, three a day, clean water and they were given soap.

1:10:36 Wow, that had to be wild for them. Wow. That had to be nice. Sure Aw, so they never saw each other anyways after that. That's sad but they did get free together well, I mean, that's something, I guess, but I kind of was hoping that they'd be able to like I don't know, yeah, hang out on may 10th, james boarded a steamer on the atlantic waters and headed towards annapolis, maryland. Okay, he was stationed there at camp parole until june, 28th camp parole okay, june 28th is the day that he headed home.

1:11:22 Finally, wow, he took a baltimore ohio train to detroit. Okay, there was no really of what happened after that. Oh, so they just. We chronicled his time there and his release, if you will, but beyond that we don't know what happened to James. Yeah, so Belle Isle Prison was closed in 1865 after the Civil War ended. Right Today the island is a historical site and a popular destination for visitors. Okay, is a historical site and a popular destination for visitors. Okay, if you were to travel to andersonville now, you'd see a lush green meadow of grass, okay, and like just huge, like little valleys and hills, and it's just all really lush and green.

1:12:04 Are the? Are the walls? not there anymore. They are not there so they have stakes that um get out marked out the perimeter of the walls. Sure. And they'll say, like stockade on the markers Right, right, and then they also have markers that identified where the deadline was. Okay, that 20 feet separation. Yep, there is one short wall, the North Gate that stands, but it is a replica. Oh, okay. And this is where the prisoners would enter. So they rebuilt that section. Yeah, just to kind of show yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, out where the guards stayed, they had cannons facing the stockade.

1:12:46 Those are still on the grounds, are? those actual. Mm-hmm. They were meant to deter, so they had. I think there were four. Two were pointed towards the stockade and two were pointed outward um in hopes of deterring any um uprising yeah no, not uprisings, but any um union soldiers coming to liberate the camp. Oh yeah, sure, sure um also on the the grounds. Inside that deadline is Providence Spring. And it's still bubbling up water. Around the year 1900, former prisoners and a group called the Women's Relief Corps raised money to build the monument. So they created this nice stone building monument where they have a reflection pool with the stream coming up and it looks really really nice and you can hear the sound of water.

1:13:37 It's just really it's really nice cool. The monument was dedicated then in 1901, so that is still standing okay. On the grounds of the prison there's also the cemetery sure 13 000000 POWs are buried there. That's a lot of POWs in a short time 29% of the population of the prison. Wow. And that was over the course of only 14 months. Yeah, that's the thing. It wasn't around for that long, no, In comparison. Some guards did die as well. I'm sure. They lost about 10% of their population. I mean still significant, but not as well. I'm sure they lost about 10% of their population. I mean still significant, but not as bad, yeah.

1:14:17 So they had 2,500 guards and 250 died, sure. So remember the raiders? Yeah, the six who died by hanging. Yeah. They can be seen in the cemetery and they are actually completely separate from the rest of the soldiers. Really, it looks like they're more on display because they are so separate and it's super obvious. But they did that because the soldiers deemed them not worthy of laying amongst their own fallen comrades. Wow, I mean that's kind of weird that they like took that stance on it with how they treated all these people. But I mean that's, that's kind of weird that they took that stance on it with how they treated all these people. But I mean, that's kind of nice that they did it, because, yeah, they were worthless fucking people.

1:14:58 Yeah, so after the war, there's a woman named Clara Barton. She was a nurse, okay, she was known as Angel of the Battlefield, oh, and she helped search for loved ones who had vanished during the conflict, okay, loved ones who had vanished during the conflict, okay. So barton began receiving countless letters, um, with pleas of information on um, they're missing, a family member's missing soldier, sure. So she undertook the arduous task of researching these shoulder soldiers whereabouts and responding to their family, the family inquiries, okay. At the same time, in 19 in j of 1865, there's a guy named Dorrance Atwater. Dorrance Atwater. A former prisoner at Andersonville. He contacted Bart Barton seeking copies of her list of missing soldiers, and together they labeled every single headstone.

1:15:51 Person who was there. Yes, Every single person in the order of death. Wow. So they literally have person number one, so-and-so Sure From this regimen. Okay. All the way up to 13,000. That's quite impressive. That had to take a while. But just the fact that they could identify Well yeah. Guess how many pow's out of 13 000 were unidentified uh 1200 400. Wow, that's it, that's. It's a large number, but, in the vast scheme of things, 400 out of 13 000 that's a pretty good percentage. Yeah, that they got right or got marked, whatever you want to call it.

1:16:34 But wow, only 400 couldn't be. Yes, I mean that's impressive so james was discharged from the army on july 26 1865 in detroit. Okay, he married permilia howley in Grand Rapids on October 10th 1865. Like super short after. Yeah, that's a unique name Permelia. They had four children oh there you go. The author of this book is his great-great-grandchild. That's pretty cool. James died at the age of 69 on April 7th 1913, after two years of being bedridden. Condition unknown wasn't mentioned no yeah captain henry worse was sentenced to hang on november 10th 1865 for war crimes okay david hill and john johnson died in the sultana disaster oh, no really they did so good thing james didn't go with him and he was supposed to be on that boat.

1:17:37 Yeah, and the beginning, this begin the beginning of this book. The author said that he did die on the sultana and then later found out that he wasn't on that steamboat. Wow, he was supposed to be there that's crazy. That's sad that those two guys died and there is zero info that I have found on jonah okay, I mean that's not surprising being a man of color in what? the 1860s or whatever yeah I mean, it's not surprising that you couldn't find much on him. Yeah, so that, which is unfortunate because of what he did for for. James literally saved his life.

1:18:18 So so that is a story of James Skaden and the horrendous conditions at the Andersonville prison camp of the Civil War. Yeah, this book that I read it's called. Now I Know the Story of James Russ Skaden, andersonville Civil War Prisoner, by Yvonne Linscott Bartell. She collected his. He had pension records. Oh really. He had diaries, and then she also found a ton of information of other soldiers that corroborated some of the things that James said. So she would like enter that. And then there were other things that James didn't say, but she found other people in the same exact timeframe that she would add to this story as well.

1:19:05 So she just kind of. They also had diaries or something, journals whatever. So the first half of the book is mostly about the civil war and what his regiment would have done okay um, and then the second half of the book is in james's point of view. Gotcha nice yes um, there is also a video that I watched on the cemetery portion of what I discussed and that one's called um andersonville national cemetery. Okay, and I'll have those links in our show notes. Awesome that's wild yeah, there's also no known picture of james um, but if I think it was, her mother or her aunt um created an image like, so I'll put that on social media as well.

1:19:52 A drawing. I mean that's not surprising that they wouldn't have had an actual photograph, but they did have pictures of his two sisters, his older sisters, so that's in the book as well, as well as a picture of Captain Henry Wurst. That piece of shit. Wurst is the worst. He's the worst. He's the worst. He's the worst well, that was energetic and uplifting my throat is scratchy I bet that's a lot to go over. Um, yeah, that's a lot of fucking people on a small amount of land yeah I mean 26 acres is decent amount of land, but when you have what was the top number 30 to 33- it was, yeah, I think it was 33, 35 000.

1:20:39 Yeah, and that's a lot of people a lot of people and then you're just nowhere to go to the bathroom, nowhere to seek shelter. I mean jesus can you imagine having diarrhea? No, several times a day yeah, like one of the things they were thankful for was only having diarrhea twice today, yeah oh, I mean no, I wouldn't want to, even I'd panic if I, if I only got like two plies of toilet paper left and I didn't plan ahead, yeah. Yeah, they just had nothing, was that a little TMI. I mean it was kind of weird, but I appreciate the information. I guess You're very welcome.

1:21:21 No, that was yeah, that's depressing. Can we do an uplifting story one of these days? Wow, yeah, let's find an uplifting story. All right, I will take that challenge I challenge you to make me not depressed after an episode. Okay, okay, I suppose. Well. I suppose All right, buffoons, that's it for today's episode. Buckle up, because we've got another historical adventure waiting for you. Next time Feeling hungry for more buffoonery, or maybe you have a burning question or a wild historical theory for us to explore.

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